What goes into a good Demon army?

[eagleboy7259]

Hey all,

I recently returned some stuff to GW and decided to start a new army since I haven't built one in about three years now. I picked up the Chaos Demons codex and I'm just lost, no one at our club uses them and I've never seen anyone play with them except on the BoLS battle report. There are a bunch of things which look like they could be good but in actuality I have no idea. Can anyone give me a rundown of which units play good and which stink? and why does it seem to me like no one ever uses any of the Slaanesh units?

[Herald of Nurgle]

Anything, apparently.

I play, obviously, mono-Nurgle. However, it is better to plan your list out a bit more than that. Plaguebearers do well in the first wave, while dedicated assault forces should go into Second. As a fallback, use a few (25%) of each wave to show off what the other wave is trying to do, so that the 1-2 won't fail too badly.

Slaanesh units aren't used because they either look awful or are too expensive. Case point: New Daemonettes.

[ninja skills]

fiends are always good, fast have lots of attacks and are good at popping transports.

daemonettes can be good as they have a bucketload of attacks and defensive granades but are extreamly fragile

the three chariots available are all good for various reasons. khorne ones are similar to daemon princes, slaanesh ones are fast and (if amred properly) st 5 on the charge with lots of attacks and the tzeentch ones are good gun platforms (theese are the most popular on the net) and all are a bargin for around 100pnt's

i've played around with different lists and either go for lots of small units or a lesser number big (15+) ones as both ways maximise your suriviability in different ways.

be careful of the masque as she is VERY tricky to use right but can turn a battle to your favour, skulltaker can kill anything but the very hardest of special characters and with a juggernaut can take them on too. fateweaver is very useful but can constrict your deployment. saving the best to last (the others i've not used) is the changeling for 5pnts is a bargin and can make some of the funiest situations happen.

i favour princes (nurgle ones) but grinders are great but you'll need 2 as one is just a big dead target.

luckily the book is full of (mostly) powerful units as thier biggest downfall is one of thier biggest strgenths in thier deployment, but they are chaos after all. one thing to remember you don't have to split your army until ater they the game has started so you can see they board and enamy deployment.

you have to get your units working together to get the best from them, eg pavane enemys out of out of cover so it doesn't matter that bloodlettes don't have granades

sorry to rant I just love my daemons and wanted to help


(mods, does this belong in tactics?)

[Lerra]

Some units are better than others, but daemons are like most other armies in that the units are fairly specialized, and you have to take into account how they work together to make a good list.

Soul Grinders provide great anti-tank and are just plain scary. Daemon Princes compete for valuable heavy support slots, and can also be very good. You'll probably fill your heavy slots quickly between these two options.

Ignore the fast attack slot. Nothing good will come of it.

For troops, any of them can be good in the right army. Daemonettes are probably the weakest choice, though - they must be taken en masse or not at all (they are fragile and will die to shooting unless you run a lot). Plaguebearers make amazing objective holders, but don't expect them to kill anything. Bloodletters are incredibly killy, but also quite fragile with that 5+ save to protect their high point cost. If you can get them into combat, they are extremely destructive, but they often attract a lot of firepower and can't assault after the deepstrike. Horrors have an amazing "gun" with 3 shots per model at AP4, but the short range can be a bit tricky. Horrors are still my favorite shooty troops in the game, though. Deep Strike in and a squad of 10 can throw 30 shots at something. The Changeling is the best 5 points you will ever spend, in any army in the game! Amazing upgrade.

[eagleboy7259]

So I had planned: Fateweaver, Bloodthrister, 5x Blood Crushers or Flamers, 2x Soul Grinders, Horrors & Plague Bearers and I'm not too terribly far off?

[Lerra]

Sounds very solid :) I'd recommend play testing it out a bit. Fateweaver is great in a build like that, but also locks you into a certain playstyle (you end up clumping your army near Fateweaver, which limits some of your options). Fateweaver is very competitive but it's pretty easy to build a competitive list without her if that's not your style.

[DarkLink]

So I had planned: Fateweaver, Bloodthrister, 5x Blood Crushers or Flamers, 2x Soul Grinders, Horrors & Plague Bearers and I'm not too terribly far off?

Sounds pretty solid. Flamers and Bloodcrushers are both brutal units, and Fateweaver is just mean (unless you play Grey Knights :D).

[Chumbalaya]

Don't go Noobcrushers, you'll surprise new players but get beat down by any halfway decent player who has seen it before. It's crazy hard to fit Bloodcrushers in clear terrain if you're using proper amounts and your opponent spreads out properly, plus they're only infantry so it's ridiculously easy to avoid them.

Fiends are the best unit in the book, take lots. Daemons have trouble with armor and closing to get into assault, Fiends, Tzeralds, Tzeentch DPs, Flesh Hounds, Sheralds, Pavane, and the like help you close so beater like Bloodletters and Grinders can finish the job.

Read this http://40kdaemonreview.blogspot.com/

[eagleboy7259]

Don't go Noobcrushers, you'll surprise new players but get beat down by any halfway decent player who has seen it before. It's crazy hard to fit Bloodcrushers in clear terrain if you're using proper amounts and your opponent spreads out properly, plus they're only infantry so it's ridiculously easy to avoid them.

Fiends are the best unit in the book, take lots. Daemons have trouble with armor and closing to get into assault, Fiends, Tzeralds, Tzeentch DPs, Flesh Hounds, Sheralds, Pavane, and the like help you close so beater like Bloodletters and Grinders can finish the job.

Read this http://40kdaemonreview.blogspot.com/

It made me re-think some of the paper tigers... I heard that Tzeentch and Nurgle were the best troops due to the shooting attack and high toughness respectively. So Flamers and Fiends over Blood Crushers? I'll probably leave them in for now just because the models look so dang cool IMOP and I really want to get the chance to build and paint them. I'll probably switch over if I start loosing because you have a way of often being right...

[zealot]

Don't go Noobcrushers, you'll surprise new players but get beat down by any halfway decent player who has seen it before. It's crazy hard to fit Bloodcrushers in clear terrain if you're using proper amounts and your opponent spreads out properly, plus they're only infantry so it's ridiculously easy to avoid them.

Fiends are the best unit in the book, take lots. Daemons have trouble with armor and closing to get into assault, Fiends, Tzeralds, Tzeentch DPs, Flesh Hounds, Sheralds, Pavane, and the like help you close so beater like Bloodletters and Grinders can finish the job.

Read this http://40kdaemonreview.blogspot.com/

I rarely QFT but this guy hit the nail on the head hard

[Cryl]

I've seen and played against a very effective mono nurgle build. Usually centred around Epidemius... You take something along the lines of

Great Unclean One
Epidemius
Herald of Nurgle
3 or 4 squads of plaguebearers
some nurglings
3 winged deamon princes of nurgle, tricked out with most of the toys

There are just so many MCs all at once that it's difficult to deal before one (usually more) is chomping their way through your army. There are weaknesses but the player I've seen use this knows them and plays around them. In addition if your opponent doesn't go after Epidemius he can soon have nurglings wounding on 2s with no armour saves allowed hitting his units in the face... and no one likes losing a daemon prince or carnifex to nurglings!

[Chumbalaya]

Mech trumps it big time. Those MCs can only do so much against armor, and only 3 of them fly. Bringing down 3 MCs is not that hard when it's all the army has the threaten you with.

[Cryl]

Mech trumps it big time. Those MCs can only do so much against armor, and only 3 of them fly. Bringing down 3 MCs is not that hard when it's all the army has the threaten you with.

Yup, you're right. Most of the games I've seen this guy struggle with have been against very mech heavy lists. That said he seems to do better with it than the list suggests he should do on paper... maybe some luck in there though :)

[Nikephoros]

So I had planned: Fateweaver, Bloodthrister, 5x Blood Crushers or Flamers, 2x Soul Grinders, Horrors & Plague Bearers and I'm not too terribly far off?

Close. While Soul Grinders are good, they dont have the synergy with Fateweaver that Daemon Princes do. I feel that if you're going with Fateweaver you ought to maximize his advantage and bring a nurgle melee prince and a tzeentch shooty prince.

Fiends are good, Crushers are good, flamers are good. You honestly can't go too far wrong with any of them, but I'd say Fiends and Crushers are more useful and have better synergy with Fateweaver.

[eagleboy7259]

Well after returning space hulk I have right now: 5x Plague Bearers, 5x Horrors, Blood Crusher and the Codex and the girl friend is getting me the Lord of Change for xmas which I'll convert into Fateweaver. So nothing is really locked in right now.

I was thinking that I'd do wave one: all the big stuff that's had to place - Fateweaver, Bloodthristers, Soul Grinders
And then the second wave: all the little stuff 3x 5 Strong Horrors, 2x 5 Strong Plague Bearers

That is more or less the correct way to do the waves right? And how big should the demon squads be? I used to do Demonhunters way back in 3rd and ran an entirely deepstrike army and had success (-ish) with 10 strong teleport attacks. I know smaller is probably better now to beef up the number of troops choices... is there really one strong uniform way to run them?

[Lerra]

Most of the tournament lists I've seen actually use very similar forces for wave 1 and wave 2. 33% of the time you'll get wave 2 first turn, so you need to be able to win with your second wave, too. One list I saw at 2k points was actually just two identical 1k point lists. That way it didn't matter which half of the army came in first. It got 2nd or 3rd at a large tournament.

[Chumbalaya]

You want to start knocking out transports and eliminating sources of mobility as quickly as possible so you can get the good stuff into assault.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

IMO the most important things to put into a Demon army are ;

* imagination

* cool conversions

* an awesome paint-scheme

* models you actually like

[RogueGarou]

I have played Daemons since back in 2E and got the Spearhead as soon as it went on sale. I've experimented with all of the units except Harpies. I just don't care for the models too much or the rules but they could be used as a road bump, I suppose. Just my play style. I have also used all of the characters. There is a lot of pretty cool stuff in the Codex so there is a lot to choose from for your army. These are just some of my thoughts.

Chariots look cool but they are very vulnerable. The model loses Independent Character and that makes them easier to kill with mass fire. If you take Chariots, I think it might be better to take several Chariots to give your opponent more targets to draw fire. Massed fire has presented the most damage to my Daemons. The single big shots can be overcome with the invulnerable saves and the Eternal Warrior rules. But don't count on making many saves. For the most part you will have 5+ saves on your models, go into any game knowing you will lose a bunch of models. Expect it. Do not sweat it when you are removing hordes of troops. Your troops are not very expensive and many times even the remnants of your squads are effective.

The HQ choices are many I often choose them first when building my lists. The characters may alter how the rest of the army works or may complement other units you decide to add. Epidemius is nice but he needs some protection if you want his ability to stick around for awhile. I am a fan of Ku'Gath. The Nurglings that I get for free have proven useful for tying up Havocs/Devastators/Long Fangs. Ku'Gath can also weather a lot of fire but every time I have lost him in a game it has been to MASSED Tau Fire Warrior shots. Once, it was three turns of most of a 2250 point Tau army; the only things not shooting at him were the three Hammerheads with railguns and the three Piranhas with fusion guns. The only HQ choice I am not real fond of is the Masque. She has very cool abilities but since she is a Herald, she is pretty much a boosted Daemonette and is NOT an IC. That is not a typo, it is intentional in both the Fantasy and 40K books. This makes her vulnerable to fire if your opponent wants to remove her. Her Pavane with three shots is cool, though.

The Elites group are all good choices. If I had to skip one unit, though, it is usually the Beast of Nurgle. As has been said above, Fiends rock. I did not notice too much love for the Flamers in the other posts so I am going to give them some face time. Flamers are an almost mandatory part of my lists. I usually take two squads of them. I drop them in VERY aggressively in the first wave. This serves two purposes: 1) I have almost always gotten my points back for them because I try to drop them close enough to use the Breath of Chaos attack and 2) they have always drawn so much of a response from that first round of shooting that the rest of my army has a turn where they don't take fire. This is an expensive suicide squad but since they kill so many enemies, tie up so much of the enemies attention, and, if they survive the retaliatory strike, are jump infantry, they are tres cool in my opinion. I like to take 5 or more in a squad but even 4 will often let you lay down 3 templates. All of the Elites choices are cool but I think they need to be in large units to survive.

Troops choices are mostly a matter of preference. Take larger squads and they can survive some shooting. Take multiple smaller squads to dilute the fire they take. Each Troops choice has advantages and disadvantages. The Marine players around here fear the Bloodletters because of the Hellblades. Tau and IG worry over the Daemonettes due to high number of attacks and Initiative. Plus, their strength equals the majority toughness in those armies and wound on a 4+. No one likes the Plaguebearers because they are tough and resilient. Plaguers can usually survive in smaller squads much better than the others. Nurglings are often ignored until they get close enough to tie up something. Horrors have a good save for the army, lots of shots, and a fun, cheap upgrade character in The Changeling. They have a Guardsman's BS, though so it helps to balance the volume of fire they can lay down.

Just remember that your Troops can not hope to kill a Dreadnought. It is not worth trying to kill one. I have used squads to effectively eliminate a Dread for an entire game, though. The invulnerable saves worked well that game and that nasty Ironclad didn't even kill the squad of Bloodletters it swung at for four turns. Most other vehicles can be destroyed by your Troops, though, thanks to rear armor 10.

For the Fast Attack slots, I like Hounds and Screamers. Hounds are swift and Screamers do a number on tanks. Seekers are fast but brittle and can be devastating when handled with forethought. All good choices.

I like my Soul Grinder but it has never done very much in my shooting phase. In the enemy shooting phase, it does draw a good bit of fire. It does not have a save but it is armor 13 front and sides. If it ever gets into close combat, it can be pretty nasty. Don't forget the Harvester gun. It is only a bolter but it is can be good against enemy infantry when it hits. The 6 shots are evened out by BS 3. Daemon Princes tend to fall into two categories when I play them. They are either kitted out with lots of upgrades or (practically) none. Wings are nice but expensive. Iron Hide is a pretty good choice for the 3+ armor save. Gaze and Breath have paid off, as well. I tend to take the Mark of whatever is predominant in my army. I think the Mark of Khorne is the least useful for the DP, followed by Slaanesh. Nurgle and Tzeentch may have the most utility.

Keep in mind that, unlike the Daemons in the Chaos Space Marines list, none of the Daemons in the Daemons Codex can assault after Deep Striking. They can RUN, though. Always run your melee squads after they arrive to spread them out and help alleviate template damage. I usually run them until they are close enough to charge. Play a Daemons army aggressively. Slaaneshi models and Flesh Hounds are Fleet. Always run them so they may get into the face of the enemy and hopefully rip it off. With luck, you will not kill a squad on the charge. That is another point to think about. If the squad is so large and powerful that it will destroy the enemy in one assault, then they can be standing there taking a withering rain of fire on the enemies turn.

The entire army can enter close combat. The Tzeentch models are not very good at it but they do have a 4+ invulnerable save. Sometimes the sacrifice of a squad of Horrors or Flamers to tie up a heavy shooting squad for a turn until the hard hitting assaulters can get to grips is worth it.

Don't forget that your powers are abilities and NOT psychic powers. You do not have to test for your powers to work. Watch out for Grey Knights. In this area, I think I may be the only person with a Grey Knights army so I have never faced them but they are specifically anti-Daemons so be prepared. Expect to be outgunned in every battle. Expect heavy losses (on both sides, fortunately). Learn to use cover well. Learn which units are best at handling which opponents. Bloodletters are great versus models with a good save but overkill versus things with low toughness. Daemonettes are very effective against horde-style troops but can be countered by Marines pretty well. You anti-vehicle power is going to come from Monstrous Creatures (Princes and Greater Daemons), Screamers, Grinders and maybe Fiends. And most of your anti-tank power is going to be at close quarters. Since that is where most of the army shines, anyway, that is not such a big deal. Close combat is your bread and butter.

When dividing your army into the two waves the choice is very personal. A good idea is to have something useful in each wave. Icons are decent choices if you have the points but I usually do not use them and instead have more models on the table. I let the fickle powers of Chaos decide where my models land. Other players swear by Icons and take as many as possible. I don't care for the Instruments very much; it always seems that my close combats are very decisive, one way or the other. The exception being some of the Greater Daemons. Those combats can be close depending on the GD involved and what they are fighting.

Also, for some players it takes a few games to get a good feel for this army so don't get discouraged. This army also depends on a good bit of luck. High armor saves that can deal with almost any wound, Reserves rolls, and the initial wave of deployment all depend on some good luck. Sometimes it isn't with you and it can be a depressing game but that happens with any army.

Just my two cents and observations. Your mileage may vary.

[eagleboy7259]

Thanks, that was really insightful. You are the first person that I've heard so far advocate for any Slaaneshi demons outside of fiends. I was thinking the large blast was the most useful for the high strength, AP 3, and longer range, but I'll fiddle around with the different Maw Cannons when I get my hands on some Soul Grinders. I'm starting to do a mock up of the list I want to build and so far it looks like:

HQ: Bloodthrister w/ Unholy Might & Either Fateweaver or Lord of Change
Elites: 2x 3-4 Strong Flamers & 4-6 Fiends or 4-5 Blood Crushers
Troops: Horrors w/ Changeling & Either Bloodletters or Plague Bearers
Heavy Support: 2x Soul Grinder & MAYBE Demon Prince?

My thought was that if I included Fiends I would have Bloodletters and if I had the Blood Crushers I would take Plague Bearers. I wanted a power weapon type threat... something that I would be confident throwing into combat. I don't know if Fateweaver is worth his points or if I can get away with a lesser Lord of Change and still get generally the same impact saving some points. Further I was wondering if Khrone/Nurgle armies still work or if the general school of though has become that you need some Tzeentch in there for shooting?

[Chumbalaya]

Most Slaaneshi units are simply too soft and outclassed by other units to bear any mention. Fiends, Keepers, Sheralds, and DPs are the best you can do for Slaanesh. Daemonettes are fragile and outkilled by Bletters and outsped by Fiends, Seekers similarly suffer from T3.

Grinders work best in combat, the S8 pie is nice but the prevalence of cover and its lack of ordnance (to hurt vehicles better) just makes it another infantry killer, something Daemons already have plenty of. Grinders suffer big from BS3 and being the only vehicle on the board, so take lots or they'll get melta'd rather quickly.

As for your list:
-Bloodthirster is pretty damn awesome, just toss on Blessing for the 2++ against psychic attacks (best buy for the book). Be careful though, as your only speedy monster he will draw a ton of fire and he isn't that hard to bring down.
-Lord of Change is pretty poor, he has very little shooting and costs too damn much. Fateweaver is handy, but extremely expensive and not at all necessary.
-Flamers are ok, very much a one trick pony. They're too fragile to stand up to any kind of firepower and against mechanized armies they aren't all that useful.
-Fiends win Elites. Cheap, speedy, and crazy hitty.
-Bloodcrushers are too big and too slow, Bletters do the same damage for cheaper.
-Horrors are meh, T3 hurts big and they can't fire upon landing or risk getting nailed by templates. More anti-infantry killing is not necessary.
-Plague Bearers are awesome for objectives, but keep them cheap. No point tricking out a unit that isn't good for anything but taking up space.
-Bletters are murder machines, but fragile and slow. Use your mobile units to tie up shooters so they can mop up
-DPs are expensive, so keep them focused. Tzeentch DPs should shoot and only shoot, Khorne and Nurgle DPs need wings and must get in HtH quickly, and Slaanesh Princes can use Pavane and be tricksy.

You need to pop transports and catch fast enemies. Bolt helps knock out armor, but you'll need lots (Tzeralds and DPs do it best since they're so cheap and reliable). Fiends and Flesh Hounds can catch anything and massed S5 attacks can drag down rear AV10 pretty well, but they can also tie up infantry as well.

[eagleboy7259]

Well now I'm all mixed up... I thought in that link you sent me the guy tended to advocate away from Bloodthirsters because of price. However since he's S8 and winged he's in right? So the second HQ choice would be then either Fateweaver or some GUO's. Elites I concede to Flamers and Fiends, no doubts there. Troops... I thought that horrors were almost necessary because they have shooting and can take bolt or the changeling. However it seems like you're saying Khrone/Nurgle for troops. Then are demon princes worth messing around with because if you take a Soul Grinder you have to take a second Soul Grinder and then that just leaves one DP.

[Chumbalaya]

BT is a big brick to throw at people, but running him solo is a good way to get him dead. If you want him, you'll need more threats to go after people quickly or the BT will suck up all incoming fire and die. Another BT, flying things, Grinders, Fiends, even Furies can support him on the charge.

Horrors aren't necessary at all, 1 BS3 bolt doesn't make them worth it. If you want lots of Bolts, Tzeentch Heralds in chariots are cheap, fast and fairly reliable.

Grinders are cheap, but suffer against meltas. DPs are more versatile and generally more survivable, but you pay for it.

[eagleboy7259]

So fateweaver is a good companion for the BT? and along with the fiends I'm still doing fine?

Also, the waves again, with the limited survivability of the BT, Grinders and whatnot are they better off in the second wave? first wave?

The other thing, with the Grinders do I just want to try and run him towards the enemy the whole time or walk and fire that maw cannon?

[Chumbalaya]

I'd rather have another Thirster than Fateweaver. He's useful, but just so damn expensive.

Generally, you want to overload your opponent's capacity to handle your waves, so focus them on a particular aspect (MCs, shooty, horde, cav, etc) and set it up so you can get turn 2 charges so you won't get shot up as bad.

Grinders can shoot fine, but they have fleet and S10 for a reason ;)

[Lerra]

It depends on the situation. If there are a lot of fast vehicles, shooting starts to look better than fleeting. Generally though, you'll want to fleet when it would get you into assault that round, and shoot otherwise. My soul grinders tend to die pretty quickly (they are huge targets) and it's nice to get a shot off if you're going to be wrecked before you get into assault anywho. I play a lot of Tau and Guard though, and they are unusually well equipped to take out multiple front armor 13 daemons.

[eagleboy7259]

Well, I just found out what exactly I have to work with at this point. Having returned space hulk and combining what the gf got me for xmas I have: 1 Bloodthirster, 3 Flamers, 5 Pink Horrors, 10 Bloodletters, 5 Blood Hounds, 1 Blood Crusher, 1 Soul Grinder. Typically we play 1500pts around here and I think I want to run with the Khrone / Tzeentch theme that has kind of fallen into my lap. Now in crunching the numbers for my list I know its basically impossible to run two Greater Demons at this points level. I was wondering what I should get to get me up to 1500pts quickly using the things that I have even though it has come up that Crushers, Hounds, and Horrors might not be entirely worth their salt.

In draft I have the list looking like:

HQ Bloodthirster- Unholy Might, Blessing of the Blood God
HQ Tzeentch Herald- We are Legion, Master of Sorcery, Bolt of Tzeentch
HQ Tzeentch Herald- We are Legion, Master of Sorcery, Bolt of Tzeentch
Elite 3 Flamers
Elite 3 Flamers
Elite 5 Blood Crusher
Troops 10 Bloodletters
Troops 7 Pink Horrors
Troops 7 Pink Horrors
FA Blood Hounds
HS Soul Grinder
HS Soul Grinder

...and I'm not at all pleased with this list. Being an ex 'nid player I know the same think usually goes for MC's that does for Soul Grinders, if you have just one it's gonna die. There are just so many things that this list doesn't do for me, ohh so many things. I don't want to trust my anti-tank to a few bolts and the possibility of the MC's and Grinders actually catching something. My other thought on was to try and fit in a demon prince, but by the time I've made him anywhere near decent I might as well just buy another Soul Grinder or just cough up and run another Greater Demon. It just seems to me after just playing around with the codex that its kind of hard to make a demon army at lower-ish points levels. What would you put into a smaller sized list like this?

[Chumbalaya]

You could do this for 1500:
2 Thirsters w/ might
2x 3 Flamers w/ bolt
3x 5 Horrors w/ bolt
3x Grinders

Bolts, bolts, bolts, and 5 huge big meanies to run at your face.