Getting started! Opinions Plz!

[tfkimmortal]

Hello there! I wanted to start a fantasy army, but wasn't quite sure as to what I should get into. my biggest problem is I don't want to sink a bunch of cash into another army that I will find being smashed to bits before my eyes, which seems to be a common theme in my 40k community as they are all highly competitive and usually bring lists they know very few can defend against (most of them are space marines and for some reason 15 tacticals can chew through a 30 man mob of boyz in one shooting phase, multiplied per unit each of us have >.>). Anyways! I think I've narrowed my choices down to either high elves or dark elves but can't really decide so I was wondering what peoples opinions or tips might be :). As a note I did grab a ton of the IoB skaven for cheap, but decided against them, because every skaven game I've seen relies too much on a bell and if it flops that seems to be game. I like orcs in general, but that animosity rule, I've watched too many games where they kill themselves off. I guess the biggest thing is I would like an army where most games will be close and can go either way. That's fun to me!

[Ben_S]

High Elves and Dark Elves are both pretty recent releases and, from what I gather, pretty competitive (this is based on internet forums and so forth, since I've not played against either book yet). If one is stronger overall it's probably the Dark Elves - at least, some HE players seemed to feel that way when a newer book came out that did pretty much everything theirs did plus a bit more - but High Elves still have some advantages, so it may depend on your preferred build/play style.

I think you'd be fine with either, but what I'd long wanted to do was try making a dual-use army that could be either. Ok, you couldn't actually do a whole army this way since there are differences (notably bows or x-bows), but I figure that you could make a decent 'core' that if modelled and painted right (a dark blue was my plan) they could work in either army, backed up with the various more specialised/unique options.

This way you might get both armies for the cost of one and a half - though, since they're similar in play style, I guess it could be said that you don't really have two wholly different armies, only one and a half armies for the cost of one and a half...

[angrybear]

I am not experienced with 40k but fantasy at the moment is very balanced. All 8th edition army books have been in line with each other (Woc are a bit stronger and tomb kings a bit weaker). Orcs & goblins are a bit random which can screw up competitive play but I would say they have a good book and can easily win battles. If you get experience with warhammer fantasy I think most games will be close and can go either way with most books.

[Chronowraith]

High Elves and Dark Elves are both good armies. They have some commonalities between the two but yet manage to play distinctly different. High Elves are all about Balance while Dark Elves are a purely offensive army. If you prefer reactionary tactics, high elves would suite you best while if you prefer a more proactive approach, Dark Elves are better suited.

As for Skaven, they don't need Bells, Doomwheels, Hellpits, or even Warp Lightning Cannons to win. Those units certainly help (arguebly the Bell is the worst of the lot) but the army can stand without them if necessary.

[tfkimmortal]

Thank you all for your opinions! Yeah I'm still on the fence, if I was going to have this job for another year I would get both tbh lol! I'm traditionally a mage kinda person, but have found myself more and more pulled into close combat in most every game type I play. The white lions really shine for me in this. I think it will come down to aesthetic for me. To angrybear, yeah that's what I've been seeing. My army there is assault based and, while assault isn't 100% dead, its extremely hard since assault armies haven't gotten new codex's so we cant match shooty armies point for point, and in my meta with all the drop poddiness(this is now a word :P) its like oh you are right there, and you get free flamer/melta and there goes a third of my army, then I get to kill off one group and sit there while the rest of my army doesn't have a chance. maybe fun for an opponent, but not very sporting. Anywho. Thanks a ton! I will point your opinions into consideration.

[Learn2Eel]

I think if you are more interested in High Elves or Dark Elves than the latter are more the out-and-out "assault army". High Elves are a more balanced force that are a bit more reliant on magic support, though they have easily the best monster of either book in the Frostheart Phoenix. Dark Elves are slightly more melee oriented with Core Witch Elves that are pretty much blenders and nasty, nasty Executioners that slaughter monstrous cavalry and heavy cavalry in droves. The real difference between the two is that High Elves tend to stick around longer - ward saves, Stubborn, Frosthearts, etc - while Dark Elves do a bit more damage - Witch Elves, Executioners, etc.

[Wildeybeast]

I am not experienced with 40k but fantasy at the moment is very balanced. All 8th edition army books have been in line with each other (Woc are a bit stronger and tomb kings a bit weaker). Orcs & goblins are a bit random which can screw up competitive play but I would say they have a good book and can easily win battles. If you get experience with warhammer fantasy I think most games will be close and can go either way with most books.

Yeah, any of the new books will stand you in good stead, though TK are less forgiving than the others. I'd steer clear of the older books, with the exception of skaven who are pretty hard, most are quite weak. None of the new books are OP, so I wouldn't worry about getting smashed with any of them. Go with what you like best, whether it be models, background, etc.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Eh, I've found Tomb Kings pretty easy to use.

[Learn2Eel]

Eh, I've found Tomb Kings pretty easy to use.

Tomb Kings are too magic reliant and very unforgiving, unlike Vampires who can get away with less magic-oriented builds and have a stronger overall selection of units.

Generally I wouldn't recommend an Undead army to a beginner, or an Elf army for that matter, but Undead do have the benefit of being Immune to Psychology and Unbreakable and thus there are a lot of things a newbie won't have to worry about.

[Wildeybeast]

Eh, I've found Tomb Kings pretty easy to use.

I don't think they are hard to use, but they require more thought, coordination and care to use than other armies. Mess up your unit selection, deployment or magic and you will get punished more than most other armies.

[Kevin48220]

Generally I wouldn't recommend an Undead army to a beginner, or an Elf army for that matter, . . .

Hey, can I ask you to amplify on your opinion about an elf army not being good for beginners?

I'm asking because I'm just about ready to take the plunge into WFB, and I was looking at both High and Dark Elves, along with Lizardmen. I was just curious as to why you'd say to avoid the elves starting out--they seem to have a good balance of elements (movement, combat, shooting, magic) and unit types.

Right now, I'm leaning most heavily toward going with Lizardmen, just 'cause I dig alligators and dinosaurs. But I thought one of the Elf armies might be good to start with, since they have a better variety of core troops and maybe have more shooting options than the Lizardmen.

[Learn2Eel]

High Elves and Dark Elves have a better mix of shooting, magic and combat than most other armies paired up with naturally higher mobility. The issue is that they are high cost, fragile models, and thus you have to really dictate the battle in the movement phase. They also rely on their elite infantry - mostly White Lions and Executioners, respectively - to deal with highly armoured enemies. Whereas armies like Warriors of Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms can get away with mistakes and simplistic tactics, Elf armies generally require a more skilled player because your army is mostly 9+ point per model dudes with Toughness 3 and 5+ armour or worse.

There are ways around their fragility issues though, and I would say both armies are more forgiving than they used to be. Making sure to engage the right units is one, and as both armies have excellent 'chaff' units, this shouldn't be too hard - again though, it requires a more advanced understanding of how to do things like frenzy baiting and double fleeing to really make the most of them. Another is to just go all-out offensive and smash enemies to bits before they can strike by loading up on those aforementioned elite infantry, though attrition wars and fights against hordes of Plaguebearers - for example - won't end well. Each army generally has a couple of things to get around their fragility. High Elves have their High Magic Lore Attribute, the Banner of the World Dragon, Frostheart Phoenixes and so on. Dark Elves have the Cauldron of Blood (5+ ward to a unit), debuffs in Dark Magic, higher armour saves (especially on characters) and better/more varied chaff.

Lizardmen are a solid army where most of your units are S4 T4 and thus can both dish out and take damage pretty well, as well as being decently cheap. While Elf Spearmen are 9 points a model, a Saurus Warrior is 11 points a model and has (IMO) more preferable stats, though he is more susceptible to Initiative tests and has fewer special rules. They win on strict durability and offensive power against most enemies, and their Cold Blooded special rule gives them an edge for Leadership tests despite a lower value. Lizardmen have fantastic chaff with all manner of Skinks and even Salamanders if you want to consider them in such a way. On that note, Salamanders are just brutal and will make their points back nine times out of ten the first time they shoot. They have a good selection of monsters and arguably the best spellcaster in the game when kitted out right, the Slaan. Also, Tetto'eko is ridiculous.

[Kevin48220]

Thanks for the reply on that. I did a demo game with High Elves, but obviously, that's not going to show me the whole army. From what you're saying, it sounds like Lizardmen are going to be able to survive a new player's mistakes a bit more easily than elves. I think I have to keep in mind that while I'm fairly used to 40K, WFB is a different animal in so many ways.

[Katharon]

A good starting army is either Empire or Orcs & Goblins. Both are straight forward and are strong enough to match up against any other army with a variety of army builds.

[The_Gonk]

A good starting army is either Empire or Orcs & Goblins. Both are straight forward and are strong enough to match up against any other army with a variety of army builds.

I kind of agree here. I think that both are straight-forward but need a certain temperament. For Orcs and Goblins you really need to be able to take the rough with the smooth and laugh off the ridiculous - they're less reliable than even Skaven.

As for Empire, you can do well and they are straight forward up until they're not and you don't :)
You're reliant on synergy to win against generally better troops and in Tournament games you will generally be beaten if your opponent can pick a link of that apart by neutering your magic/characters/buff wagons. The Steam Tank is awesome though (mostly)!

[Kaptain Badrukk]

OK. Here's a WFB player's opinion.
I'd catagorise the armies under four headings, based on builds derived from the starter box/battleforce.
Obviously your build will drastically change your play style and what these armies can do. But this list neatly covers "standard" builds.
Forgiving - These armies allow a LOT of mistakes, soak up casualties and/or are reliable in a pinch.
They may have some weird special rules etc, but the defining factor for them is that you can mess up and keep going.
Vampire Counts - As long as your casters are alive things are ok, and your casters are a "pain in the neck" to kill (Chortle).
Dwarfs - They rarely run, are cheap for what they do, and generally have very little random wtf going on.
Lizard men - like dwarfs but with magic and monsters. So yeah, no complaints.
Daemons - No morale, potentially regenerating troops, ward saves across the board, decent magic. Ok they have a wibbly table, but it's not THAT bad.

Finesse - These armies need some planning, and a bit of luck to go the way you planned, BUT with practice (sometimes a LOAD of practice) you can make seriously nasty lists. They're flexible, and don't suffer from too much randomness, things can go more wrong (more quickly) than above.
High Elves - Solid leadership and access to decent gear and USRs, low toughness can suck, and when a unit breaks it's a big loss. Magic can counter this of course.
Dark Elves - Hard hitting, but they feel the hurt too. Same as High Elves really, just with access to different units.
Warriors of Chaos - Elite armies, life is hard BUT man are their units nasty. The challenge rules aren't TOO bad either.
Ogre Kingdoms - Elite army, much like above, BUT they have some seriously nasty units. Borderline broken I'm told. Low LD is their weakness.
Empire - Synergy, they need Synergy. Still they're fun and forgiving up to a point. Jut never expect to win a 1on1 fight.
Bretonnia - Believe it or not I've seen these guys really run a challenging list at tournaments, but only because the player was REALLY good.
Tomb Kings - Harder than Vampire Counts and easier than some of the others, they're a challenge but not a massive one.
Random - These armies are surprising, and in fact can be darn scary, the issue is that they've also got such random factors going for them that they can utterly implode without your opponent even rolling a dice.
Skaven - The heavy hitter of this category, if the dice are on your side OR you stack the list in your favor you can utterly obliterate your opponents. On the other hand you have the chance of imploding pretty hard.
Orcs and Goblins - Yeah, things can go bad. If they don't you've got a solid list, if they do you're boned. Funny funny stuff can happen, but also utter losses can be achieved by simply not being able to act.
Old Hat - These lists are aging a bit hard, they struggle with the edition or the age of the book or both
Wood Elves - Yeah, if you want a real challenge in an army then they're your guys, this army does not enjoy 8th edition.
Beastmen - Tough but playable. They're not going to provide you with any easy wins, but with serious practice you can get some hard won victories to feel proud of.