The argument PRO-Gargantuan Creature Lords of War

[Akaiyou]

Escalation is over powered? Are gargantuan creatures that much of a threat?

How absurd is it? Is that a reflex reaction to omg forgeworld which has been a prevalent thing in 40k since the creation of forgeworld itself or is it grounded in logic? SH/GC and those crazy fortifications are now just as legal as Allies. Allies wasn't the 'new normal' either, and allows for the most ridiculous combos in 40k yet people came to terms with it. So why not come to terms with all the new things as well? (read an article on BoLs on this aswell) people are quick to say 'the sky is falling!' when something new arrives in 40k i've seen it happen for 8 years and the dust always settles and people learn to play it and accept it. Most of you have been in the hobby for a while so i'm sure you've taken notice of how this particular edition is making everything considered OP legal for everyone. Flyers, Allies, 40k Approved units in forgeworld, Bigger Kits in Codexes (riptides, wraithknights, trygons), Fortifications and now SH/GC. That entire list was NOT there in the previous edition or ones before it (except allies which had it's day in the sun ages ago and was then removed). So if everyone has all this OPness available to them already isn't that a level playing field?

http://s24.postimg.org/e5giqe2t1/normalvslow.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
subir gif (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

Mathematically forgeworld units have been known to be not as efficient as codex units for a long time with some exceptions. If you play Tyranids, compare the now FULLY LEGAL to use Lord of War - Barbed Hierodule (i own this guy). He's 565 pts (pretty expensive), has Gargantuan Creature rules which are nice but not all that different from monstrous creature rules and he comes with 2 Bio-Cannons. S10 AP3 Assault 6 guns. Which he can fire at different targets. Ballistic skill 3, so you can expect half of that to hit.

Is that OP? Sounds powerful right? Only until you actually look at the numbers. 3 hits from each gun at S10 can kill 2 rhinos a turn, or 1 land raider, or 5 space marines out of cover. Does it still sound so powerful? Maybe you'll argue 'It's not the damage output that's too powerful, it's how hard to kill a gargantuan creature is that makes it too powerful!' But again...if you look at the actual numbers the story is the complete opposite. That same Barbed Hierodule that will at best kill 5 space marines and costs 565 points has stats nearly IDENTICAL to an ELDAR WRAITHKNIGHT. If you can kill a 240 point Wraithknight then you can by all means also kill most gargantuan creatures. They are T8 with a 3+ armour save and 6 wounds. That's exactly like a wraithknight difference being that you cant instant kill a GC, and need to wound on a 6 when using sniper/poison rules. Other than that 3 units of devastators with missile launchers/lascannons which add up to 390 pts or 450 pts respectively can kill both a wraithknight and most gargantuan creatures in 1 turn of shooting. So after getting over the initial 'omg forgeworld' reaction and looking at the actual stats of these units it's clear to me that the one with the advantage is the player not bringing one of these. Hell for 565 pts an eldar player can bring 2 wraithknights and a wraithlord. That's more than 2x as hard to kill, and has far greater damage output. Also note the guns are AP3. Anything with a 2+ save could careless.

An ork squiggoth has 8 wounds but a 4+ save. So it's a trade off there, but with S7 AP4 is super common. 3 units of chaos havoks with autocannons dropping 24 shots on it should have it removed before tea-time with the chaos gods. And in return a squiggoth will fire back with 2 S7 AP4 massive blasts..Tau and Eldar might worry slightly (cover saves can still be taken) but marines will dance in the rain and careless.

This is the reason why i asked the above question, because I also had that initial omg forgeworld reaction but then i looked at the stats and was like 'wow 565 pts and THOSE are the stats? I expected Toughness 9 or 10, or more wounds or something' then it occurred to me that i had seen those stats before in normal 40k already...bam! There's the lovely Wraithknight and people still play against wraithknights without much complaint. They play against riptides too who are much cheaper and do much more damage. So it dawned on me...6th edition IS about having the free option to bring these super units and having fun. That seems to be the full on intent. That's my 2 cents

[interrogator_chaplain]

http://i.imgur.com/RWc2xm9l.jpg

Made this a few days ago to sum up my thoughts.

Honestly, I don't believe that this whole Escalation thing will be too bad. We'll all adapt, sure it might take a little more time than usual but seriously, I'm salivating at the prospect of being able to use my Stormblade (If my opponent will let me, I play Dark Angels) in a regular game.

[Sly]

1: Who demanded FW (or Titans) into 40k?
2: Who is complaining about Escalation in general, as opposed to the units with D-Class weapons (or, more specifically, to the D-Class weapons themselves)? Heck, if Escalation had a rule in it that limited D-Class weapons to Apocalypse, do you think the outcry would be even 10% of what it is now? I don't recall hearing anyone complain about any unit that does not have a D-class weapon.

[DarkLink]

A lot of people asked for non superheavy forgeworld. And, yes, the only real complaints are about str d, not about superheavies themselves, though the gargantuan creatures are better than superheavies. At least, the nastier ones are.

Side note, can you knock flying gargants out of the air? I haven't looked at the apoc rules closely enough to answer that.

[Arkhan Land]

Side note, can you knock flying gargants out of the air? I haven't looked at the apoc rules closely enough to answer that.

escalation says same rules as Flying Monstrous with escalation rules being the additions exceptions so yes they can be grounded

[DarkLink]

That's good. Otherwise the Harridan would be kind of rediculous.

[Brother Kendo]

To stay on Topic here. I dont know they fine rules for the Squiggoth, but based on stat lines only it looks much easier to deal with. The Wraithknight is by far the hardest to deal with, even when you yourself have one yourself.

[DarkLink]

The Wraithknight is the easiest to kill. It also is much, much weaker offensively. Gargantuan Creatures get a lot of buffs over Monstrous Creatures.

[Sly]

It's kind of a cherry-picked argument, and focuses on one aspect (defense per point spent) while ignoring mobility, offense, etc. Not that I think Superheavies without D-class weapons are so over the top, but picking a few units and saying "clearly the Lords of War units are not overpowered because THESE are fine" is not a reasonable argument. It's the strongest examples that would be used to argue if they're overpowered, not the weakest.

[DarkLink]

Agreed. That said, my competitive eldar could kill any of those three listed in the op in one shooting phase on roughly average dice. They're not too terrible.

[Jrbunn02]

Along the lines of what DarkLink said, for this to have true comparison value, you also need to be listing the benefits of a Gargantuan Creature over a Monstrous Creature, including -

1) Poisoned Weapons only wounding on a 6+
2) Instant Death weapons having a reduced effect
3) Stomp
4) Etc.

I have not listed out all of the pros/cons, but for this to be a valid discussion, all data needs to be presented.

Edit: I do note that you list these things within one of the paragraphs, but not as visibly as the data that supports your side of the original argument.

[Kyban]

GCs get feel no pain as well.

[Shane Hanson]

Yeah I would say like the Greater Deamon (FW Lord of Change) is one of the toughest probably to deal with, since he can grant himself rerollable saves and then use the Grimoire on him and he has a 2+ instead of a 3+ invul. save, with a 4+ FNP. Takes quite a while to kill, but it is 999 points, so unless a 3,000 pt game, doesn't make much sense to take.

[Demonus]

They are T8 with a 3+ armour save and 6 wounds. That's exactly like a wraithknight difference being that you cant instant kill a GC, and need to wound on a 6 when using sniper/poison rules

Which is a pretty big deal as poison weapon spam and force weapons are pretty good ways of dealing with WK depending on your opponents. Also Ive never seen anyone use the 2 str 10 guns on a WK, always scatter, cannon and shield for 300pt monster with 0 str 10 shots.

[Mr.Pickelz]

The problems with the Squiggoth, which makes it the easiest of the three, are:
1. Slowest - it walks/runs, while most transports in the game move faster, and/or fly...
2. Anti-infantry guns - Orks have an over-abundance of anti-infantry tools, why more?
3. limited guns - those guns are not suppose to swivel and turn, their pretty much fixed, which means that only one can fire forward.
4. No invulnerable save - while things like the Wraithknight can get a shield, this thing has to rely on a Mek with a KFF(HQ option) to get a cover save. (which is easily negated)
5. limited transport - this thing can transport 20 models, which isn't a full mob of Ork boyz, thus it will probably carry something important like Nobz and/or a Warboss, so it will always be near the top of a kill list.
6. Poor armor save - a 50/50 shot of an armor save on a Baneblade equivalent model that is right up there with the Wraithknight in height isn't going to stop anything that has the strength to wound it. (IE. Autocannons, Lascannons, etc...)

Something of that size, and thatspeed just can't explain the price point GW popped on it. The biggest features the Squiggoth has going for it is the aesthetic value and fluff. Nothing that relates to the gaming side. :(
That said, I do hope to one day afford one, but I could never recommend it as a "competitive choice" for an Ork player. This model should only be fielded against a balanced army list, that would contain minimal or light amounts of anti-tank/heavy infantry weapons.

[Shane Hanson]

It does have a FNP, which is better than most Ork models.

[Akaiyou]

Along the lines of what DarkLink said, for this to have true comparison value, you also need to be listing the benefits of a Gargantuan Creature over a Monstrous Creature, including -

1) Poisoned Weapons only wounding on a 6+
2) Instant Death weapons having a reduced effect
3) Stomp
4) Etc.

I have not listed out all of the pros/cons, but for this to be a valid discussion, all data needs to be presented.

Edit: I do note that you list these things within one of the paragraphs, but not as visibly as the data that supports your side of the original argument.

So you are saying that those 'buffs' you listed and that as you said I also did list them...are worth 300 pts??

Because I say "HELL NO" to that.

GC have rules nearly identical to MCs. The buffs are few and only affect a limited number of weapons in the game. 90% of the weapons you can fire at a Wraithknight will be equally effective against most GCs.

Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Plasmaguns, Autocannons. These are the most common types of weapons in 40k and they all work just as effective. Grav Guns are specially effective as they get no nerf. So 1 unit of grav cannon centurions will kill any of these creatures in 1 turn.

Still seem OP? Are these upgrades reaaaaally worth 200+ pts ?

For all of you Eldar players would you pay 200 pts to have 1 wraithknight that has these benefits? I play Eldar myself and as i said before my answer would be 'hell no' for those 200+ pts I can just add another wraithknight and unleash twice the mayhem while literally being twice as hard to kill.

How fair would it be for a 25 pts Grey Knight to 1 hit kill a 600 pts model? Of course force weapons would have reduced effect. It doesnt mean that they arent very effective still, nor that the model is OP.

[DarkLink]

Have you actually played any of them to find out these answers yourself?

[Akaiyou]

Have you actually played any of them to find out these answers yourself?

I believe i mentioned in my opening post that i OWN one of these. And yes I have faced baneblades and killed baneblades, without having an equivalent of it in my army, and I was surprised at how easy it was when I come to terms that it's really an overpriced vehicle that can be killed in very much the same way as any other with a few extra rules which they pay ridiculous amounts of points for.

On the receiving end of that stick I have found my Barbed Hierodule quite lacking and much too easy to kill to the point where if i want him to do anything useful i have to seriously strategize even more than usual because he's the complete opposite of an 'I-win' button. More like a 'I'm playing with a handicap since i paid for this thing' button.

It's a few handful that are packing too much power. The great majority is a detriment to whoever wields them. Or at best decent. Thus my 2 cents

[Rothgar]

I think most of the OMG forgeworld reaction is in regards to the D-weapons (more specifically AOE D-weapons), not so much the GC's. but if you want a Numbers rundown. (having played tau vs them all). more T8/AV14 with a big amount of Wounds/HP does make it harder for some armies to deal with. However the 5" blast marker of the Macro-cannon "kindly remove your entire HQ... no save"... is a little much. Especially when you count the defensive of the Macrocannon. AV 15 and you have to get a Pen to do anything to it. So... requiring Meltas (very close range) or a S10 hit and a roll of a 6. Ya. It isn't the SH/GC as much as the D's.

But in regards to those GC's vs a wraithknight.
1. a GC has a 12" move vs 6" of the wraithknight. Much nicer to get in and stompy stompy.
2. Fire at separate targets with each of it's weapons and Ordnance weapons fire has no effect on the GC, However, can't overwatch. (considering overwatch requires those nasty 6's to hit, i wouldn't count this as much of a downside)
3. Stomp attack. (has the potential to be much more effective than the base attacks that the creature has)
4. immunity to instant death (hello Eldar D-cannon), Snipers/Poison weapons only wounding on 6+ vs normal (a huge bonus vs dark eldar)
5. Fearless
6. FNP. A nice boost to it's statline Wounds... effectively 33% higher than listed (which does bring the Squiggoth in line with the number of wounds vs the wraithknights)
7. Strikedown - Now Mr. Hierodule strikes faster than Mr Force commander. (also a nice benefit when you have supporting units about to strike into the melee.)

The bonuses for GC's make them much more effective than the simple statline entails. Worth the points? depends on what you support it with, but that's the same with any unit.
and if you want to make a good comparison on those Hierodule guns, you should also include the other end of the spectrum. 2 Cannons assault 6 - 50% hits so 3 hits against 2 separate squads, well.. There's 2 crisis suit teams, or Mr. Wraithknight (depends on how well he rolls his ++ saves), or that nice HQ squad that your army just popped out of the transport.

[Orkimedes1000]

The title of my reply suggests my stance on the subject. i am all for it, kinda sad can only make use of one though tbh :cool:

[Houghten]

1. a GC has a 12" move vs 6" of the wraithknight. Much nicer to get in and stompy stompy.

Actually, Wraithknights are Jump Monstrous Creatures, so they move 12" as well (unless they're saving their jump pack for the assault phase, but why bother? I'd rather have a guaranteed extra 6" of movement than a re-roll on my 2d6, and it doesn't lose the Hammer of Wrath since it has it from being a Monstrous Creature anyway...)