Save stacking

[Lykum]

Still pretty new to 40k, and since I live in the middle of nowhere there really isn't a local gaming group to ask. So, if my question has already been addressed I apologize.

Anyway, I'm trying to find out if saves stack. Do you get a separate save for cover and the armor? The way I think about it is that is an attacker wants to shoot through cover at a space marine, and the BS and roll allows for a hit, then the defender gets two separate saving throws (say a 4+ for the cover and a 3+ for the armor). This represents the difficulty of the shooter firing through cover, and subsequently having to penetrate the SM's armor. So can I roll two saves against only one wound?

So how does say a fast skimmer fit into the picture? I would imagine that shooting through cover at an extremely fast moving target would be represented by the separate saves.

Lastly, how do invulnerable saves work? Do I get to take one invulnerable save per wound? Per turn? Per game? Again, if it is meant to represent a force field of some sort, then I see that as the last line of defense after cover and after normal armor (provided that those are there), so that would lead me to believe that I could potentially take 3 saving throws against one wound.

Thanks.

[Nabterayl]

Still pretty new to 40k, and since I live in the middle of nowhere there really isn't a local gaming group to ask. So, if my question has already been addressed I apologize.

Anyway, I'm trying to find out if saves stack. Do you get a separate save for cover and the armor? The way I think about it is that is an attacker wants to shoot through cover at a space marine, and the BS and roll allows for a hit, then the defender gets two separate saving throws (say a 4+ for the cover and a 3+ for the armor). This represents the difficulty of the shooter firing through cover, and subsequently having to penetrate the SM's armor. So can I roll two saves against only one wound?

So how does say a fast skimmer fit into the picture? I would imagine that shooting through cover at an extremely fast moving target would be represented by the separate saves.

Lastly, how do invulnerable saves work? Do I get to take one invulnerable save per wound? Per turn? Per game? Again, if it is meant to represent a force field of some sort, then I see that as the last line of defense after cover and after normal armor (provided that those are there), so that would lead me to believe that I could potentially take 3 saving throws against one wound.

Thanks.
Only one save may be taken against any given wound (see page 24). So if you have an armor save and a cover save, you may only take one of the two. This is true even if you have two of the same type of save - for instance, you might be entitled to a 5+ cover save because you're being shot at through a fence, and a 4+ cover save because you're also in area terrain woods, but you must pick only one cover save to take against the wound. So in your example of shooting at a fast skimmer through woods, the skimmer would get only one save.

Invulnerable saves are merely a different type of save. You can use them all game long unless something in your codex says otherwise.

It's worth noting that the benefit of having multiple saves is because of the different ways there are to take away saves. Saves come in three varieties, with the following pros and cons:

Armor saves - most common, taken away by low-AP weaponry, power weapons, and weapons that explicitly deny armor saves. Generally the easiest save type to take away.
Cover saves - next most common, taken away by template weapons and weapons that explicitly deny cover saves. Generally fairly difficult save to take away, but rarely gets as good as the best armor saves.
Invulnerable saves - least common, taken away by attacks that explicitly deny invulnerable saves. Generally very difficult save to take away, but generally the worst save of the three.

Very few weapons can take away two kinds of saves (and those that can are quite powerful for this reason), but many weapons can take away one kind of save with regularity. So you can see that there is good reason to have redundant saves. You can also see that players will tend to get excited by very good cover or invulnerable saves, as the disadvantage of those saves is generally that they are quite poor (though difficult to take away). Find a very good invulnerable save or cover save and you get the best of both worlds.

EDIT: By the way, in case you're wondering - is this one-save system at all realistic? No, and we all know it. However, it is the design decision GW made, and so fundamental to the rest of the game design that few players feel like changing it through their house rules.

[DarkLink]

I'll also point out that you MUST use the best possible save. Not that you normally wouldn't, but hey, you never know.

There are only four weapons in normal 40k that ignores all 3 types of saves; one of the Inquisitorial Assassins, one of the C'Tans, and Grey Knight Psycannons, Incinerators and Flamestorm Incinerators (though none of the Grey Knight weapons ignore 2+ armor saves, and only Flamestorm Incinerators ignore 3+ armor saves).

[Mike X]

Lykum, I can totally sympathize with your situation. When I first started in this hobby, I had this exact same question.

But no, you must make only one save; they don't stack. And you always take the best save value awarded to your unit in that roll.

[Lykum]

Thanks for the answers. I guess it isn't in line with my original logic, but in terms of simplifying a game it makes sense. Otherwise it would be impossible (statistically improbable) to actually wound an armored target through cover.

[Culven]

Fantasy uses a slightly different system which feels a little more realistic, but can bog the game down a bit. GW has always tried to make 40K a more "streamlined" system, hence the simplified rule allowing only one Save.

[Old_Paladin]

Not to confuse the situation (as what everyone has said so far is correct); but there is a method to get more then one saving throw.
If you have the 'feel no pain' special rule, or the necrons 'we'll be back' special rule.
Both of these allow you to take your normal armour/cover/invulnerable, then the special save; but that's the only way to get 'layers' of protection.

[Nabterayl]

Not to confuse the situation (as what everyone has said so far is correct); but there is a method to get more then one saving throw.
If you have the 'feel no pain' special rule, or the necrons 'we'll be back' special rule.
Both of these allow you to take your normal armour/cover/invulnerable, then the special save; but that's the only way to get 'layers' of protection.
To clarify for Lykum's benefit, the reason you can get a Feel No Pain or We'll Be Back roll in addition to your one armor/cover/invulnerable save is because FNP and WBB are not technically "saves." "Save" is a technical term in 40K, and only refers to armor, cover, and invulnerable saves. FNP and WBB, while die rolls that can help you ignore wounds, are not "saves," and therefore are not subject to the "one save per wound" rule. I'm sure you can see right away what this does to the odds of killing a model who can take both a save and one of these special rolls.

[Lykum]

To clarify for Lykum's benefit, the reason you can get a Feel No Pain or We'll Be Back roll in addition to your one armor/cover/invulnerable save is because FNP and WBB are not technically "saves." "Save" is a technical term in 40K, and only refers to armor, cover, and invulnerable saves. FNP and WBB, while die rolls that can help you ignore wounds, are not "saves," and therefore are not subject to the "one save per wound" rule. I'm sure you can see right away what this does to the odds of killing a model who can take both a save and one of these special rolls.

Cool. That all makes sense. Now I understand more why the Plague Marines are so well loved/hated.