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Squirrel_Fish
12-08-2009, 08:58 PM
Hey folks,

So I've been on a bit of a 40k downslide for a while now and want to try something new and have been looking into Warmachine as another game to add to my repertoire and hobby list.

Since my only tabletop experiences have been with D&D and 40k, I was wondering how steep the cost was in starting up a Warmachine army? Is there any particular recommendations you would have for starting players? If you were going to try and get someone on the fence to try playing Warmachine, what would you tell them? The last question is to try and get some of my 40k friends to join me in this endeavor.

Cheers,
Squirrel_Fish

Lednera
12-08-2009, 10:16 PM
most basic start up would be about 50 USD; I would go to Privateer Press and check out the minis and go with what you like :)

Bean
12-09-2009, 08:24 AM
As with most games, you can play very small games for a fairly limited price. The starter boxes each contain a warcaster (which every army needs) and a handful of 'jacks (though some boxes contain more than others, they tend to present relatively equivalent forces, on the whole). These boxes are priced at a very reasonable introductory rate of $50.00.

But, while you can technically play with nothing but a starter box, they basically make for bad games. Even within the game format which is just "caster and 'jacks" they're not generally not very good armies.

What you'll need beyond those are a few Units, which run anywhere between about $35 and $100 and a few Solos, which run between about $7.00 and $20 dollars.

My advice, though is not to buy a battle-box right off the bat. The battleboxes were designed as introductory items back when Privateer had not produced any models beyond what was actually in the battleboxes. You'll hear a lot of long time players reminisce about them fondly, but rarely mention that, at the time, there were practically no other options.

Now, though, you're much better off taking a look through the rules and picking out the models you find appealing. If those models happen to be ones which come in the boxed set, then get the boxed set. Otherwise, don't feel obligated to start with the boxed set. Just buy the models you want. Start by picking a caster or two you find interesting, though. Casters have the most impact on the flavor and play-style of your army of any model you choose, and having a caster you enjoy using is the most important part of having an army you enjoy using.


All in all, though, you should expect to spend about a $150 before you have an army which functions at the lowest standard point value (which is 35, if I recall correctly). It could be less, if you choose a specific army which is particularly cheap to build, or it could be more for some other particular armies. It will almost certainly be more if you buy stuff haphazardly until you have 35 points with which you are happy.



edit
On the other hand, if not many people in your area play, and you're trying to pull your friends into it, you might have luck convincing everyone to start off by purchasing a boxed set (which isn't too much of a lay-out at $50.00) and play with the boxed sets for a while. Odds are, people will enjoy watching the 'jacks punch each other enough to start looking into the rest of the rules, at which point they will be interested in picking up infantry and whatnot to fill out their armies--and at that point, you've basically got them hooked.

GentleBen
12-09-2009, 11:15 AM
Hey folks,
If you were going to try and get someone on the fence to try playing Warmachine, what would you tell them?
Squirrel_Fish
I will tell you a few things. :D

1. Warmachine is a totally different miniatures gaming experience than 40k. Its similar to Magic TG in that you are trying to build combos and interactions and you're often more concerned with a models special rules than its statline or weapons.
2. While its next to impossible to perfectly balance a miniatures game with rules for over 300 individual models/units the people at Privateer Press try incredibly hard to keep their games balanced between factions.
3. The Privateer Press site has a rules forums where you can go and ask about any rules conflicts and get a response from the community within 24 hours or so. Since its archived you can often find your answers without having to ask.
4. You can start with a small force and add pieces over time. Every new warcaster you add can completely change up the game play.

As far as price goes, I'm not going to try to sugarcoat it. Lots of Warmachine minis are expensive. The battlebox is a good deal but some of the pieces in them could soon be replaced with resculpts. The heavy 'jacks will be replaced with much better looking plastic kits in January '10 and I suspect that the lights will be eventually as well. The old models will still be perfectly viable they just won't look as good. But lets crunch some numbers real quick. Lets assume you, like so many have, pick Khador as your faction. Heres a reasonable 35 pt MkII army based off the starter box:

Box: 11 pts. $50
Full Winterguard: 6 pts. $46
Winterguard Standard Bearer and Officer: 2 pts. $13
Kovnik Josef Grigorovich: 2 pts. $11
Doom Reavers: 6 pts. $33
Widow Makers: 4 pts. $20
Grey Lord Ternion: 4 pts. $18

Thats $191 dollars. A little daunting to be sure, but thats a full army at the standard points cost for competitive play. Compare it to the $200 Ork MegaForce for 40k. You get WAY more stuff in that box, but you'll need at least a second box like it plus who knows how much more stuff to reach the standard 2000 pt level for tournament play. You'll probably need to spend at least $400. So basically, you will get less stuff for your dollar withr Warmachine, but you'll get more army. Hope that helps.

If you want to crunch the numbers yourself you can find the MSRP of all Warmachine minis in the gallery section of their site (http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery), and you can download the rules for free here (http://privateerpress.com/company/mkii-rules-and-model-info-available-for-pdf-download).

Lazytron
12-09-2009, 06:16 PM
Not sure I agree with your unit choices, but the cost is a pretty solid ballpark, at any rate. =)

Squirrel_Fish
12-10-2009, 12:02 AM
Alright, prices sound fairly legit and not too substantial.

Another question - would it be possible to build an army in that ballpark consisting of a nice meaty chunk of jacks? I just love the idea of giant robots pummeling each other into the dirt and squashing dudes left and right, but if I wanted to play the "spam the infantry" game, I'd go play 40k.

As for looks...
While I love the look of the Cryx Warjacks, I can't stand the sight of the bile thralls and mechanithralls, the former is supposedly a must-have for Cryx armies. I've also heard that the army can be very horde-like.

My other leaning is Khador just because I like the idea of a forcethat just charges forward, unrelenting, and then grinds you into dust. Man-o-Wars and Widowmakers look pretty sweet as well as all of their Warjacks.

Bean
12-10-2009, 10:24 AM
So this list:

Orsus Zoktavir, the Butcher of Khardov (6 point warjack allowance, $11.99 from the Warstore)
Kodiak (8 points $22.99)
Kodiak (8 points $22.99)
Man-o-war Kovnik (3 points, $14.99)
Men-o-war Demolition Corps (3, 6 points, $37.99)
Men-o-war Demolition Corps (3, 6 points, $37.99)
Men-o-war Demolition Corps (3, 6 points, $37.99)
Widowmakers (4 points, $14.99)

There's a 35 point list which costs $201.92 + shipping from the War Store. It's the Butcher (who's good with 'jacks and basically a big Man-o-war himself) a pair of great melee 'jacks, men-o-war, and Widowmakers.

Personally, I'm thinking about trying to build this list:

Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Prince (5 point warjack allowance, $8.49)
Manhunter (2 points, $7.99)
Drago (8 points, $44.99)
Berserker (6 points, $22.99)
Berserker (6 points, $22.99)
Berserker (6 points, $22.99)
Berserker (6 points, $22.99)
Berserker (6 points, $22.99)

That'd be $176.42 + shipping from the warstore. I doubt it would be a very good army, but it would have undeniable style.

GentleBen
12-10-2009, 10:47 AM
Not sure I agree with your unit choices, but the cost is a pretty solid ballpark, at any rate. =)

What would you have gone with then? This is the internet. You can't just come in here and criticize someone's statement and not back it up with a well reasoned counter argument. :P I could always see replacing the ternion with a couple of mortars, but the greylords have superior hat to body ratio, and that's always an important thing to consider when picking your khador army.




Another question - would it be possible to build an army in that ballpark consisting of a nice meaty chunk of jacks? I just love the idea of giant robots pummeling each other into the dirt and squashing dudes left and right, but if I wanted to play the "spam the infantry" game, I'd go play 40k.

As for looks...
While I love the look of the Cryx Warjacks, I can't stand the sight of the bile thralls and mechanithralls, the former is supposedly a must-have for Cryx armies. I've also heard that the army can be very horde-like.

My other leaning is Khador just because I like the idea of a forcethat just charges forward, unrelenting, and then grinds you into dust. Man-o-Wars and Widowmakers look pretty sweet as well as all of their Warjacks.

If its Cryx warjacks you like there are two solid choices for you. Mortenebra (http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cryx/warcasters/master-necrotech-mortenebra-deryliss) and Goreshade (http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cryx/warcasters/goreshade-the-*******-deathwalker). Most of the other Cryx casters can all do fun things with warjacks, but tend to favor mixed forces. And yeah Cryx armies do often play a Horde these days just because mechanithralls are amazing for their points costs. You can always got to the Cryx forums (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26) at the Privateer homepage and ask some more questions. You'll probably got lots of responses from people who want to share their favorite winning lists with those 2 casters. Oh yeah and I guess that would be the sort of thing to post in the List Discussion sub-forum (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36). There's actually already multiple posts there about both those casters.

Lazytron
12-10-2009, 06:23 PM
What would you have gone with then? This is the internet. You can't just come in here and criticize someone's statement and not back it up with a well reasoned counter argument. :P I could always see replacing the ternion with a couple of mortars, but the greylords have superior hat to body ratio, and that's always an important thing to consider when picking your khador army.

Amen to the hats. Mostly that army feels a bit infantry heavy to me, although I suppose the winterguard are quite a bit improved in MkII. My battle-box centered list would probably involve a kodiak thrown in to beef up your metal quotient,and I really don't think widowmakers are worth it anymore. I would math it out closer to:

[Sorscha] \
[Juggernaut] - Boxed set
[Destroyer] /
Kodiak
Winterguard unit
Winterguard attachment
Kovnik Josef
Doom Reavers

Still 35 points, and the $191 - $20 -$18 + $30 = $183

If you love the furry hats too much to drop the greylords, i would consider taking the above list and dropping the doom reavers for them and either a minimum unit of mechanics (particularly with the extra jack), or a manhunter (another sweet furry hat).

Trading the widowmakers and grey lords for a kodiak not only gets you a bit more oomph, with less models, but it lets you play around a bit more with the special attacks from warjacks to get used to them, and saves you $8 (not much, but might as well mention it). It also still leaves you with a solid, ranged, defensive unit of troops, and a vicious offensive melee unit of troops, so you can get a better feel for your own personal jack/infantry strategic ratio.

As for the demo corps list and the berzerker list...yikes. Both are pretty thematic and i appreciate that, but...let's inject a little realism. The demo corps list would probably perform pretty decently (The berzerker list would -- well, it wouldn't really do much, in all likelihood), but I wouldn't really recommend either of those collections for a new player. In both cases you are missing out on variety and getting a feel for the army as a whole, and also buying a lot of models that aren't really useful in other lists if you want to mix and match later. Even if you like demo corps a lot, it is tough to squeeze more than a unit into a list that you want to try anything else with, and I would never recommend to anyone that they pick up more that 3 berzerkers unless they were sure that they loved them very very much.

Really though, I wouldn't sweat the battle box too much as a starting point either, considering the coming plastics. If you want to get in and try it out they are still a pretty decent deal, but if you are planning a list for later (especially if it is for after the holidays) you shouldn't feel locked into them even a little bit.

Bean
12-10-2009, 08:48 PM
Sorscha with three 'jacks is basically a waste. She's focus-intensive, herself, and has no good abilities for buffing several 'jacks at once. Two Destroyers is generally a good pick, or a single Behemoth. Jugger, Destroyer, Kodiak, though, is wasting points. Get more infantry, and only give a caster what it can expect to actually put to use.

Now Orsus, he's got Full Throttle, which means he can run several 'jacks at once. Three or even four kodiaks wouldn't be too much of a stretch, on him. With full throttle, or any caster relying on a battle-group buff to run several 'jacks at once, you really want 'jacks with double melee weapons, which makes the Kodiak a particularly good choice for him.

Squirrel_Fish
12-11-2009, 12:30 AM
So after downloading the rules, I decided to throw together a quick list for your opinions. This list is mostly based on how much I like the rules and how much I like the models...Mostly how much I like the models. :D

35 Points
Lich Lord Asphyxious
Deathripper
Deathripper
Cankerworm
Slayer
Deathjack
Tartarus
Bane Knights

Lich Lord Asphyxious? He looks awesome. His feat (combined with a sacrifice of Tartarus + Bane Knights) sounds like I could use it to quickly slaughter some worn down enemies. His spellcasting just screams awesome to me.

Deathrippers - cheap. Maybe effective? Arc Nodes are helpful mainly because it gives Asphy (is there a better acronym for this guy?) a more flexible casting range.

Cankerworm - Looks cool. Its Armor Piercing Bite seems like it'd be good at tearing through Light Jacks pretty easily.

Slayer - Points I didn't know what to do with.

Deathjack - With a name like the Deathjack, I'd be crazy not to take this guy. He seems pretty scary.

Tartarus and Bane Knights - Tartarus seems like he'd work well with Asphy and I don't want him going around alone. Since I thought the Knights looked cooler than the Thralls, I went with the Knights.

CC?

GentleBen
12-11-2009, 11:54 PM
Sounds like a solid list. The Deathjack will help relieve some of the focus burden generating 2 extra focus per turn. With necromancy thats even an extra caustic mist you can put down to help shield your advance from incoming fire. 4 caustic mist clouds will also screw with enemy infantry because they'll die if they try to go in it. You got some arc nodes to make sure you can put parasite on whatever you need to assuring the deathjack will be able to trash probably any single target per round. Asphyxious's feat with the Bane Knights adds some assassination threat. Its definitely competitive. If you really want some hardcore analysis sign up on the PP forums and post this in the cryx list discussion. I'm sure if there are any major flaws they'll find them.

Irdion
01-20-2010, 05:19 AM
I'm going to regress a little bit i the conversation to hit upon price again.

For new players, I HEAVILY encourage people to begin with the battle box. It is indeed true that the best competitive models in the game are not included in them, but the combination of the models and rules to play the game is perfect for players just starting out. If you rush into the game too quickly, you may find that you've developed an army in which you don't particularly like the play style. As a Press Ganger I've seen numerous individuals get into the hobby really quickly, throwing down a lot of money to put together a force as quickly as possible - only to eBay it as soon as they don't like how it plays. In contrast, almost everyone who buys the battlebox will get at least a few games out of it before getting tired of the contents. It's also relatively cheap for the hobby, and will help you and your friends get introduced to the rules gradually rather than immediately running into the 35 point level.

The best starting point level I've found is about 25 points, a little bit under the established standard. It gives you enough leeway to try out a few things you think you might like, including a nice mix of infantry and warjacks, without sacrificing too much in the way of initial investment. After you play for a month or two at the 25 point level, then try building up to 35 points and see what kind of things that the additional points will buy you.

Now that I've gone and spouted my opinion everywhere, I'll take a look at your Cryx list ;)

35 Points
Lich Lord Asphyxious
Deathripper
Deathripper
Cankerworm
Slayer
Deathjack
Tartarus
Bane Knights

Cankerworm and Asphyxious go together like peas and carrots, and veteran Cryx players swear by this combination as one of the most effective duos in the game. Cankerworm's unique abilities combined with Asphyxious's ability to rust or otherwise cripple large targets makes the unison of these two almost a gimme. Likewise, Deathrippers are great little engines of irritation for your opponent, as they create an incredible threat range from their high SPD and the high Focus values of Cryx Warcasters. The ability to get spells where you need/want them is going to start becoming second nature as a Cryx player, as proper combinations of offensive spell and attacking models is essential to the fundamental Cryx strategy. Tartarus and Bane Knights are a heavy hitting cannon, and they provide a high threat for your opponents to deal with. If they aren't popped off, they WILL kill an essential piece of the enemy army, in incredibly short order. Make sure to defend them because most players know of this, and new players will quickly learn ;)

The bit where I'm a little concerned is the inclusion of the Deathjack and the Slayer. Asphyxious loves his focus for his repertoire of nasty and devilish little tricks, and anything which takes away from that quickly reduces the effectiveness of your Warcaster. Warmachine is a game of economics, with focus management being the essential principle. These two heavy warjacks do provide a solid center, but they also require a lot of fuel in the form of focus to be effective. The Deathjack is hands down one of the most lethal instruments in Warmachine, but that comes at a rather hefty price tag. Consider dropping one of the other for a supporting element to your Warjack heavy force, namely something to deal with a large volume of infantry. Since you've already mentioned you aren't too fond of the zombie element, consider adding Satyxis raiders as a complement to your force. Their high MAT and damage output can unsettle opponents the first time they meet it, and the Unit Attachment gives them a huge boost in mobility and a couple nifty abilities to deal with various targets. Experiment around, and see what works for you.