Kingdom Death Plastic Pinups

[Bigred]

These are injection molded plastic - DAMN!

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/391/002/43082e3b4895087e36705c4585fbd309_large.jpg?1385705 975

Kingdom Death is pulling out all the stops on these. The detail, and complexity is almost unreal for plastic injection molded models.

[Wildeybeast]

Wow. Just...wow.

[Chuck Williams]

6076

[GrauGeist]

I can't wait to receive my KD stuff next year.

[euansmith]

But-hocks...

[Mike X]

Link? I wish to partake!

[DarkLink]

Well. Someone cannot lie.

[eldargal]

Blargh.

[Katharon]

Blargh.

lol, I saw this reaction coming.

[eldargal]

I used to like some of their stuff, it was creepy in a supernatural horror kind of way. Now it's mostly just 3d porn for fanboys. The pin ups at least, the regular range has a bit more going for it. Still creepy, though, just in an entirely different way.:rolleyes:

[energongoodie]

I love this KD stuff :D...sorry

[SaveModifier]

Although I really liked the look of the base game and expansions, the pin ups turned me off the whole KD kickstarter and I can't pledge now, most of my friends pledged and avoided the pin ups but i just don't feel comfortable supporting the company that makes those

[Orange]

Oh look, another toy for fat guys to get off in their mother's basements.

Mind you the stuff on their website that is sold out looks pretty nice.

[DarkLink]

I used to like some of their stuff, it was creepy in a supernatural horror kind of way. Now it's mostly just 3d porn for fanboys. The pin ups at least, the regular range has a bit more going for it. Still creepy, though, just in an entirely different way.:rolleyes:

I've never liked knocked knee poses. It looks silly. Plus, in terms of overall proportions, I think the lower bodies look a little too puffed up in relation to the upper bodies. Though I have seen that body type in real life before.

[gideon_lorr]

Kingdom Death already makes the best female miniatures on the planet. Period. No contest. I can't believe how good their plastic looks. Simply stunning. (throws money at screen)

[gideon_lorr]

@SaveModifier

why? what's wrong with you?

[SaveModifier]

@SaveModifier

why? what's wrong with you?

mostly I don't hate women

[Mike X]

I used to like some of their stuff, it was creepy in a supernatural horror kind of way. Now it's mostly just 3d porn for fanboys. The pin ups at least, the regular range has a bit more going for it. Still creepy, though, just in an entirely different way.:rolleyes: Odd, my girlfriend loves them. Guess it's just a matter of taste.

[The Girl]

I don't hate women, and I don't masturbate while looking at hyper-sexualized 28mm models... yet, I like what I'm seeing here. The lantern festival pinup, especially. Her proportions are larger, more realistic; and she's portrayed as being traditionally attractive rather than some sort of gluttonous freak. That's pretty progressive for this industry, imo.

Progress does not come in a neat little finished package... it comes in steps. This is one.
Remember: the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Edit to add: the sculpt quality is awesome on these. I can't wait to see them in person.

[Grabula]

Oh look, another toy for fat guys to get off in their mother's basements.

Mind you the stuff on their website that is sold out looks pretty nice.

Interesting. So the toys you play with in your parents basement are ok? Just not the ones that threaten your manhood?


mostly I don't hate women

If this stuff offends you then I'm guessing more than you know.

Let me just point out a couple of ways these attitudes are EXTREMELY childish...

1 - If most of you walked into a museum, or a park and found something like this in stone, and over 4 ft tall, it would be beautiful art.

2 - It's extremely mysoginistic to assume women can't be proud of their bodies, and that we as human beings can't celebrate who we are through our art. The human body, both male and female has been the subject of art for time immemorial, unabashadly and unashamed.

3 - I'm willing to bet those most vehemently opposed don't have an issue when their sitting in front of their monitors watching the porn that can be found all over the web.

4 - I personally know a slew of women who are in the pinup world, from models to photographers to makeup artists. They all very much enjoy what they do and they do it to celebrate their feminism, and their bodies. These women love who they are.

Don't let twisted western/christian mores trick you into believing the human form is bad, or wrong in anyway, and that showing it in art is pornography. If you can't see the art in this sort of thing then you have a serious ton of growing up to do.

When I first saw these my thought was 'wow, awesome sculpting'. My second was 'nice to see they aren't the typical rail thin form our modern society insist women need to look like to be beautiful. I think the individual who sculpted these loves the female form and did them service in his or her sculpts.

Keep in mind the entire range is hyper sexualized. Ironic when folks like eldergal say they enjoy everything else but these...

[DarkLink]

That was more than a little harsh.

[Deadlift]

I really like these, I love the fact that somebody's sculpted a female form that's not skinny small boob elve. The 1st one in particular is rather beautiful in a very buxom kind of way. Not so sure about some of the poses with the turned in impossible leg positions but besides that they are really nice. The physiques remind me of the female barberian from Diablo 3.

These are from the "pin up" KD range, if that's not your thing fine, but as I've said I really like the way they've done the larger framed female physique in a nice way.

[eldargal]

Interesting. So the toys you play with in your parents basement are ok? Just not the ones that threaten your manhood?



If this stuff offends you then I'm guessing more than you know.

Let me just point out a couple of ways these attitudes are EXTREMELY childish...

1 - If most of you walked into a museum, or a park and found something like this in stone, and over 4 ft tall, it would be beautiful art.

2 - It's extremely mysoginistic to assume women can't be proud of their bodies, and that we as human beings can't celebrate who we are through our art. The human body, both male and female has been the subject of art for time immemorial, unabashadly and unashamed.

3 - I'm willing to bet those most vehemently opposed don't have an issue when their sitting in front of their monitors watching the porn that can be found all over the web.

4 - I personally know a slew of women who are in the pinup world, from models to photographers to makeup artists. They all very much enjoy what they do and they do it to celebrate their feminism, and their bodies. These women love who they are.

Don't let twisted western/christian mores trick you into believing the human form is bad, or wrong in anyway, and that showing it in art is pornography. If you can't see the art in this sort of thing then you have a serious ton of growing up to do.

When I first saw these my thought was 'wow, awesome sculpting'. My second was 'nice to see they aren't the typical rail thin form our modern society insist women need to look like to be beautiful. I think the individual who sculpted these loves the female form and did them service in his or her sculpts.

Keep in mind the entire range is hyper sexualized. Ironic when folks like eldergal say they enjoy everything else but these...

1) What's your point? I can walk into a museum and look at the naked musculature of men as well, where are the KD male pinups? Why is it just enormous breasts on display?

2) Yes it is. It is also misogynist to dismiss the feelings of a woman who finds these to be discomfiting, as you have with me.

3) Probably

4) Me too, not sure what your point is. I'm a lipstick feminist or if you prefer a sex positive feminist. But we aren't talking about pin up models reveling in their own sexuality we are talking about miniature sculptures.

Stop building straw men. This isn't about the human form being bad, at least not for me. I'll get onto that in a moment. Don't presume someone who doesn't like these is some kind of anti-art prude. I have a ****ing degree in art history and I work in a ****ing museum and I've done life modelling for various ****ing artists.

Awesome sculpting isn't incompatible with problematic elements.

Don't put words in my mouth, I said the rest of the range has a bit more going for it and that I liked SOME of it, not that I enjoy everything.

Why I find these sculpts problematic:

-The women are all virtually identical. There is no character or expression or individuality in their faces. They are blank canvasses, statues, not even aware that they are on display and certainly not reveling in it like pinup models do. This is problematic for me because women are expected to be blank canvasses on which men can project their desires and that is the feeling I get when I see these sculpts.
- Likewise their bodies are all identical. Huge, gravity defying breasts and small waists. You say it is nice to see something other than the rail thin modern conception of beauty and fine, yes it's good they aren't all waifs. But replacing one conception of beauty with another is NOT progress.
-The poses. I get that this is a pin-up range but they all share similar, knock kneed, overly girlish poses that have more in common with modern advertising standards than historical or modern revival pinup art. Where is the fun and whimsy that pinups are supposed to embody? All we have here are pouty, busty women posing in skimpy clothing. I don't see that as being particularly positive.

On the subject of body positive message:


I see a lot of nice sculpts here with body types not usually represented and that is great. I also see a whole lot of new hyper sexualised female sculpts in a market already saturated them and that is problematic. I was also put off but what I (and many others) saw as a focus on the pinups over the actual game models, it felt at times like KD were funding their game by focusing on the pinups and not the game models.

Now, if you disagree with me, that is fine. If you love these sculpts, that is fine. But don't presume to tell me how I should ****ing feel about them just because you disagree.

[SaveModifier]

Yeah, basically what eldargal said.

What I meant by not hating women, is that I know how some women feel about these issues and that means personally, I cannot justify to myself supporting this company because they make these models. One of the typical arguments people defending this trash bring out is that i should "vote with my wallet", as if that has ever had any impact historically, which is what I'm doing, Kingdom Death will never see a penny of my money because of these models, they make some nice models, but, for me, this means I can't support them, I don't support a lot of companies because of their practises, Nestle for example. It doesn't do anything really, there are always enough people out there to support the businesses who don't care about the issues.

These type of over sexualised models and depictions of women offend and upset people, if you're happy with the models you buy upsetting people, that is your choice, but, telling people they're wrong for being offended and then listing a load of bollocks to try and defend why you like the thing that upsets people is ****ing stupid. I have every right to be offended, I don't have the right to tell you what to do, but I can tell you the effect what you're doing has. The fact of the matter is, I love this hobby and I love the company of women so I'd like to be able to be involved both at the same, but because of the representation of women that these models fit the exact stereotype of that eldar girl listed above me, many women can't see any representation for them in the hobby, or the sci fi/fantasy world in general, and so are immediately turned off by it, personally, I'd rather have more heroic depictions of women, look at Hasslefree miniatures, a lot of their female models are topless or scantily clad, but every single one is brimming with character and thought, none of them look like victims, they're warriors and soldiers, the same as the men, that is what equality is, these models are all helpless, they're cowering or posing, they're not ready for battle, from the way their legs and feet are, if any of them launched an attack, they'd twist an ankle.

[GrauGeist]

Here, we see a certain amount of willful ignorance on the part of eldargal.

BOLS did review and painting of the original 4 survivor models, along with the original KS launch.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/02/hobby-practicing-skin-tones-with.html

Note that the males are also stripped to the waist. They're also ripped and toned. You can even see their nipples, how scandalous!

None of the starting models has more than a cloth sheet for covering themselves. All of the starting survivors were treated equally.

But don't let those facts get in the way of a good rant.

[SaveModifier]

Here, we see a certain amount of willful ignorance on the part of eldargal.

BOLS did review and painting of the original 4 survivor models, along with the original KS launch.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/02/hobby-practicing-skin-tones-with.html

Note that the males are also stripped to the waist. They're also ripped and toned. You can even see their nipples, how scandalous!

None of the starting models has more than a cloth sheet for covering themselves. All of the starting survivors were treated equally.

But don't let those facts get in the way of a good rant.

This isn't about the game figures, its about the Pin Up models, which people have repeatedly stated are totally seperate and not needed for the game. There are no male miniatures in the Pin Up line, the female survivors are more in line with how it should be, they're dressed in a similar way and are armed and ready to fight, some of the armour packs even give them armour that might protect them in a fight, a rarity in the miniature world, however, how well done the survivor miniatures are doesn't mean that the Pin Up models aren't crass and sexualised.

And GrauGeist, I saw your comment about not wanting women in the hobby, so, I'm going to pretty much disregard whatever you say Dave.

"We flat out don't care, and nor should we. I don't get into the whole quilting or pretending-to-read-book-wine-party-club thing either. Not a big deal."

[DarkLink]

Given the context of this thread and what Eldargal is actually responding to, I don't really see how that is relevant, GrauGeist.

[Deadlift]

Just showed them to the wife, I've always valued her opinion especially in things like this. She is a feminist as am I apparently so I asked her what she thought of them.

I said I liked them, but she wasn't impressed, she asked "what are they supposed to be ?" Either way she thinks they are a bit boring. When I asked her about the debate that's resulted she basically said " they're just models, feminists have much bigger issues than worrying about 28mm models"

[DarkLink]

That's where my confusion is. Savemodifier made a relatively innocent comment, and then suddenly people started dogpiling him, and eldargal too for some reason. It's a frikin lump of plastic the size of your thumb. Chill out.

[eldargal]

If we are going to talk about the original survivors:

http://payload114.cargocollective.com/1/9/313941/4580566/KDM-Starting-Survivor-Zachary-8.jpg
Look at his body language. Dynamic, confident, aggressive and powerful.He's half naked and unselfconscious about it because hey, he has more important things to worry about. His head is angled down while he grimaces with effort.

http://payload114.cargocollective.com/1/9/313941/4580566/KDM-Starting-Survivor-Allister-1_1.jpg
Look at his body language. Confident, collected, upright, somewhat static. He's half naked and unselfconscious about it like the other male. Head straight, gaze forward.

http://payload114.cargocollective.com/1/9/313941/4580566/KDM-Starting-Survivor-Ezra-2.jpg
Look at her body language. Static, crouched, defensive and self conscious. Despite holding what is ostensibly a weapon she is clutching it in a way which both tries to hide her breasts from the viewer while drawing attention to them (a common enough trope (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJo5Ho6q_EEfOfkHCj6szI9hj3fVjMK QiMBbKaz1M3OYSKiT92bA)). Head bowed, blank expression like every other KD female.

So despite being each survivor being half naked the manner in which that nakedness is depicted is radically different. The men are sculpted to look confident, the woman is not. Now the fact is her stance is a relatively sensible combat stance (if she had something other than a rock, not the greatest of defensive weapons) but the issue here isn't practicality but HOW the genders are shown relative to each other. This is a common theme throughout KDs range. The woman are either parading their bodies in a deliberately gratuitous way (ie posing) as in the pinup range or they are shown in poses of submission. They also have no variation in facial expression, all sharing the same uniform features and pout.

Now as I said I have ZERO issue with someone liking these, how dare I? Tastes differ. I was also too harsh is describing them as 3D porn for fanboys (though that is how I feel about them), I forgot my own rule of framing judgements of models in subjective, personal terms. But this escalated rather ridiculously.


Just showed them to the wife, I've always valued her opinion especially in things like this. She is a feminist as am I apparently so I asked her what she thought of them.

I said I liked them, but she wasn't impressed, she asked "what are they supposed to be ?" Either way she thinks they are a bit boring. When I asked her about the debate that's resulted she basically said " they're just models, feminists have much bigger issues than worrying about 28mm models"

Well yes KDs models are hardly important taken in isolation, or even miniatures as a whole, but the issue goes beyond 28mm scale models, it extends to television, film and video games. Women are depicted gratuitously in a way which is tailored primarily to a male audience with no thought to how women feel about it. This is just a small part of that problem.

Did someone mention Hasslefree?

http://www.hfminis.co.uk/img_cms/product_images/web_Artemis%20white.jpg
This is one of my favourite HF sculpts. She is wearing less clothes than the KD models, she is standing tall, gazing at something to her left and her face has some real character in my opinion. Is she sexualised? No, she is naked. Her breasts are full without being ridiculous. I think this is beautiful.

Another HF sculpt:
http://www.hfminis.co.uk/img_cms/product_images/HF5403%20Gypsy%202.jpg
Head and shoulders back, upright pose, striding forward confidently, heavier cheekbones and smaller eyes than the other sculpt. A different face. Lips parted, jeering or sneering or who knows? Oozes character and confidence.

I could go on and on highlighting beautiful HS sculpts but this isn't the topic for it, just making a point.

[Chris Copeland]

The above HassleFree sculpts are lovely. They are amongst the best I've ever seen. However, they aren't done in a pin-up style. Pin ups were/are often highly sexualized depictions of scantily clad women in suggestive and coquettish poses. We use the word "cheesecake" around here (the term "beefcake" is the corresponding and less-used male term). We can argue the pros and cons of pin-ups. We can discuss whether pin-ups can ever be supported by feminists. I'm submitting that the Kingdom Death models clearly are done in the pin-up style and that the HF models aren't (nor are they claiming to be).

I do like that the KD models aren't done in a waifish style. As has been pointed out, it's nice to see someone see larger women as being lovely instead of just engaging in fat-shaming. KD gets kudos from me for using a larger body type (I'd actually call it a normal body type) for their clearly marked pin-up models.

So, are pin-ups ever OK or are they all automatically porn? I've known feminists who have happily engaged in pin-up sessions as expressions of their own positive sexuality. I've known feminists that are stoutly against anything that has women being judged by looks and/or being sexualized.

Here's where I stand: celebrating sexuality is good. Some women choose to engage in pin-up sessions that (even using old tropes from by-gone eras) are positive because they are doing it on their own terms, celebrating their own sexuality. Here is an example from a local photographer who runs sessions for women who want to do that: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151268847091148&set=a.10151268846676148.1073741829.185320496147&type=3&theater ... so pin-ups can be good and liberating.

They descend into porn when they are done not as a celebration of women but to objectify women. Here's the hard part: how can we tell when a pin up has crossed over from positively expressing a woman's sexuality (even using old tropes) to simply exploiting women? Hmmmmm...

[Kudag Firefist]

There's no denying these sculptors have ample talent.

However, these sculpts are just far too close to the creepy, hyper-sexualized anime figures popular with certain unsavory anime fans.

Would not buy.

Edit:

how can we tell when a pin up has crossed over from positively expressing a woman's sexuality (even using old tropes) to simply exploiting women? Hmmmmm...

I think when the women in question are quite literally objects with no actual human female involved (quite clearly not even as a reference), it's a good hint you may be entering the squicky zone.

[Chris Copeland]

I think when the women in question are quite literally objects with no actual human female involved (quite clearly not even as a reference), it's a good hint you may be entering the squicky zone.

Fair enough. Here's the thing: to me, it looks like a reference was used. I think that a curvy, lovely model must have been hired for these sessions. Secondly, I have no idea what gender the sculptor is.

These sculpts do look sexual. They are supposed to because they are done in the pin-up style. Pin-ups are inherently sexual. So my question is can pin-ups ever be OK? Some say yes, some say no.

I think these sculpts are closer to cute and playful than the creepy anime you are referring to. Obviously, that's just an opinion. I'm part of the "let's celebrate sexuality" part of the feminist movement. I think old tropes can be wrestled away from old uses and repurposed to celebrate sexuality.

Then again, I might be over-thinking this. After all, as DarkLink pointed out, we're talking about tiny bits of plastic. Cheers.

[SaveModifier]

The current revamp of Pin Up style has been about expressing sexuality, its by women and its about looking and feeling sexy, not everyone likes it, but the women involved usually do, its not about looking sexy to be gawped by men, these are, these aren't depictions of strong, sexy women, they're victims or weak, naked women, none of them are looking strong and confident

[Chronowraith]

I'm not really jumping in either line as I take Deadlift's approach... these are lumps of plastic and anyone trying to find deeper meaning in them is wasting time. That being said, it is just my opinion and I personally think people need to just agree to disagree and let it go.

I would point out that while the pinups are NOT necessary to play Kingdom Death they are still grounded in the fiction of that particular setting. So if they look fearful, weak, defensive, or self-conscious it's because it fits the setting. Kingdom Death is a setting where everyone is either a victim or a survivor and while there are certainly female models that look like victims there are also strong/confident looking models as well. Look at the female pinups for the great game hunter, preacher, white speaker, and forsaker. While they are highly sexualized they all depict strong and confident women.

Also, just something to throw out to everyone, how you perceive a model may not be how others perceive it. Whether a model portrays a strong/weak or aggressive/defensive is an opinion and thus widely subjective. For the original survivors I do see the female as defensive, but, in a survival game I don't see that as being a bad thing. I also don't see her pose as being static either. To state that the 2nd male model just standing there is only "somewhat static" is, in my opinion, baffling. The guy standing there is doing just that, standing. He's much more passive and looks defeated or reflective... as if he knows he's going to die. That being said, I know that the original survivors are not what is being debated actively... so I'll stop there...

[eldargal]

The above HassleFree sculpts are lovely. They are amongst the best I've ever seen. However, they aren't done in a pin-up style. Pin ups were/are often highly sexualized depictions of scantily clad women in suggestive and coquettish poses. We use the word "cheesecake" around here (the term "beefcake" is the corresponding and less-used male term). We can argue the pros and cons of pin-ups. We can discuss whether pin-ups can ever be supported by feminists. I'm submitting that the Kingdom Death models clearly are done in the pin-up style and that the HF models aren't (nor are they claiming to be).

Actually another problem with the KD pinups is that most (some do) resemble nothing remotely associated with the pinup 'style'. In terms of pose and facial expressions they have much more in common with the blank faced, pouting models in modern fashion advertising than pinups. The only thing the KD pinups have in common with pinup photography is that the female form is on display.


I do like that the KD models aren't done in a waifish style. As has been pointed out, it's nice to see someone see larger women as being lovely instead of just engaging in fat-shaming. KD gets kudos from me for using a larger body type (I'd actually call it a normal body type) for their clearly marked pin-up models.
Yes, it is good to see different body shapes in miniatures, it really is. But these are still very much in line with the modern conception of beauty. Large breasts, small waist.


So, are pin-ups ever OK or are they all automatically porn? I've known feminists who have happily engaged in pin-up sessions as expressions of their own positive sexuality. I've known feminists that are stoutly against anything that has women being judged by looks and/or being sexualized.
Pinups are never porn as pinups are never sexually explicit. I was incorrect in referring to them as 3D porn. I am a feminist who has happily engaged in pinup sessions and I believe absolutely that female sexuality is not something to be ashamed of or thought of as dirty. But that doesn't negate that, to me, these models just scream male gaze (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/faq-what-is-the-%E2%80%9Cmale-gaze%E2%80%9D/). Also rememeber there is a difference between sexual and sexualised. Pinups are sexual but they aren't necessarily sexualised, often the only flesh on display beyond the norm is a flash of thigh or stomach.


Here's where I stand: celebrating sexuality is good. Some women choose to engage in pin-up sessions that (even using old tropes from by-gone eras) are positive because they are doing it on their own terms, celebrating their own sexuality. Here is an example from a local photographer who runs sessions for women who want to do that: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater ... so pin-ups can be good and liberating.
Agreed but this to me is where the comparison between KD pinups and pinups starts to break down. The modern pinup revival is really due to women taking control of their sexuality and expressing it within a framework of traditional femininity and cheesecake because they want to. Most piup photographers are women and very little pinup photography is sponsored, sometimes advertising materials make use of pinup style shoots but most of it is women booking sessions for themselves or giving them to friends for fun. It is a celebration of femininity and female sexuality that has absolutely nothing to do with the Male Gaze because it is entirely up to the women involved whether or not they disseminate the material. In contrast the KD models are produced by a company that is at least owned by a male according to concept art produced by a male. I can't find any mention of who the sculptor is.

Actually jumping on the KD Kickstarter site one thing I notice is that the pinup women in the concept art all look uniformly sad/meek/scared which is again very removed from the joyful whimsy of proper pinup art. I guess what I'm saying is from my perspective I see pinups as celebrating the female form whereas KD is simply using the female form for titillation.




Also, just something to throw out to everyone, how you perceive a model may not be how others perceive it. Whether a model portrays a strong/weak or aggressive/defensive is an opinion and thus widely subjective. For the original survivors I do see the female as defensive, but, in a survival game I don't see that as being a bad thing. I also don't see her pose as being static either. To state that the 2nd male model just standing there is only "somewhat static" is, in my opinion, baffling. The guy standing there is doing just that, standing. He's much more passive and looks defeated or reflective... as if he knows he's going to die. That being said, I know that the original survivors are not what is being debated actively... so I'll stop there...


He is actually walking forward, looking rather confident. In constrast to both women who are crouched down on the defensive. I did say her pose is quite practical but again the issue is how men and women are depicted together. Why is it the men are depicted in confident, aggressive and open (shoulders back, arms at sides or out) while the women are depicted crouched and covering themselves?

Another thing to note is that there are no male beefcake pinups, just the women get that treatment and in the main range there are young men and old, craggy men while the women are all young and attractive.

Edit: also, again, if someone likes them that is fine, no one is arguing that you are sexist for liking them or anything like that. All I and others are saying is that the way the women are depicted by KD makes us uncomfortable. Leaving aside the whole sexual bondage thing a lot of the monsters have going on...

[DarkLink]

Soooo.... basically if you do like these models, you're sexist because they're exploitative to women, and if you don't like these models you're sexist because you want to supress women's ability to express their sexuality? ;)

That's what I got from this thread, pretty much.

[Chronowraith]

Soooo.... basically if you do like these models, you're sexist because they're exploitative to women, and if you don't like these models you're sexist because you want to supress women's ability to express their sexuality? ;)

That's what I got from this thread, pretty much.

:rolleyes:

Pretty much.

That's why I mentioned that the discussion has reached the point where people need to just agree to disagree.

[eldargal]

Soooo.... basically if you do like these models, you're sexist because they're exploitative to women, and if you don't like these models you're sexist because you want to supress women's ability to express their sexuality? ;)

That's what I got from this thread, pretty much.
Not from my posts I hope, because that is the opposite of what I am saying:

Liking something that is problematic doesn't make you sexist. You only have to see how female video game/comic book/film/television fans put up with enormous amounts of bull**** to enjoy the medium despite pretty much everything ranging from problematic to downright misogynist. But liking something doesn't negate its problems nor does it protect a creator from criticism of said problems. Also a womans ability to express her sexuality really is inapplicable in this instance where at every step the process is shaped by men.

So again, there is NOTHING wrong with liking these sculpts. They are nice sculpts. But they are also laden with problems.

[SaveModifier]

The real issue for me is people getting angry and calling out people who say that these sculpts are offensive.

You can like them in spite of their problems, thats fine, but dismissing the views of people who are offended is where it gets worse, calling women names like prude if they don't like these, or saying that its fine because these models are for men as only men are gamers or the majority of men are gamers and thats how the market works, or inferring, as someone did earlier in this thread, that a man who doesn't like them must be gay or defective in some way, or that they're "white knighting" to impress women and they are the only reasons a man could possibly have issues with these models, thats what worries me, the flat out refusal to accept that some people find this depictions of women offencive or troubling, make all the excuses you want to justify the models, but, at the end of the day, people find these models offensive because of how they depict women, you can't change that fact, even if you don't personally find them troubling.

And can we stop with the Topless Muscular Men are exactly equal to Topless Women and claiming its the same? What's next, someone trotting out that bollocks about Barbie and He Man?

[GrauGeist]

The only way the nonsense stops is if the thread gets locked. There hasn't been any substantive discussion on any of the KD stuff, despite what the white knights and raging fems claim.

Really, BoLS should simply ban discussion of KD entirely. It's pure troll bait for the easily offended.

[SaveModifier]

The only way the nonsense stops is if the thread gets locked. There hasn't been any substantive discussion on any of the KD stuff, despite what the white knights and raging fems claim.

Really, BoLS should simply ban discussion of KD entirely. It's pure troll bait for the easily offended.

Obviously you didn't read my last post Dave.

[DarkLink]

Not from my posts I hope, because that is the opposite of what I am saying:

Nah, I was mostly joking, but cherry-picking comments does read like what I said ;).

[PainterOnly]

This is my first post in the forum. I'm someone who pledged on the KS and did purchase most of the pin-ups. Honestly I've never really been someone who has looked around forums or read discussion threads about KD since my only interest is in painting them. I came across this thread looking at updates regarding KD and I'm quite amazed that there's a discussion about sexism with a misogynist focus. I fully agree the pin-ups are hyper sexualized, they use a near unobtainable body type as their basis and is something I would very rarely see in a real life woman. If this is your point of contention then I agree with it. KD could use more realistic women, but let's face it, there's a reason why both men and women have a more positive view of Kate Upton's body versus Rosie O'Donnells. It isn't just the male side that judges.
As for facial expressions, I do agree that most of the KD range have fairly expressionless faces, but this isn't something that is female only, the male models such as the Great Game Hunter has a nicely sculpted but expressionless face. I think this is really having to do with the sculptors ability to capture expressiveness since the concept art isn't as neutral.

That being said, I disagree strongly with Eldargal's view that most of the models are somehow meek or helpless. With the exception of the Dragon Sacrifice and the Leather Queen (this is one model I skipped since I don't understand how it fits in a horror setting) they're all in neutral or confident poses. Then again these body language markers are subjective, something many people attacking KD seem to fail to realize or properly address. People from different places will interpret them differently.

Your opinion is as valid as mine. That being said, SavedModifier what if someone dismisses your being offended because of this viewpoint; they may simply not care that you're offended. This is in the same vain that many don't care that you may be offended by cursing pr that you may be offended by public breast feeding. You don't offer any compelling reason as to why people who have that viewpoint should take your opinion with gravity.

[Kingdom Death]

Just going to chime in with a small fact,

I would LOVE to create some male pinups! I have been researching and speaking to some various artists however I have not found someone to work with yet. The process requires letting the specialist have full, open-armed, freedom of expressing their ideas / feelings unto the concept art and thus far I have not found an approprite artist to collaborate with yet.

From a business perspective, it is no secret that the pinup range allowed us to raise funds for many other, more exploratory facets of Kingdom Death. Because of this, they are internally treated with the same creative respect as the rest of the brand. The pinups do not have official game rules as they are not cannon to the world.

I can however, understand and respect peoples personal views and opinions. And I apologize if you are offended.

[SaveModifier]

Just going to chime in with a small fact,

I would LOVE to create some male pinups! I have been researching and speaking to some various artists however I have not found someone to work with yet. The process requires letting the specialist have full, open-armed, freedom of expressing their ideas / feelings unto the concept art and thus far I have not found an approprite artist to collaborate with yet.

From a business perspective, it is no secret that the pinup range allowed us to raise funds for many other, more exploratory facets of Kingdom Death. Because of this, they are internally treated with the same creative respect as the rest of the brand. The pinups do not have official game rules as they are not cannon to the world.

I can however, understand and respect peoples personal views and opinions. And I apologize if you are offended.

Apologising but continuing to make the offending models because they make you a lot of money isn't really an apology.

[DarkLink]

Pretty sure if making money was their main goal, there'd be better ways of doing it than trying to kickstart a gaming miniatures company.

[archimbald]

Apologising but continuing to make the offending models because they make you a lot of money isn't really an apology.

dude, thats like a news reporter saying their sorry to report a murder, but then reporting the news anyway, hes saying sorry the potential consumer doesnt like it, but plenty do so hes not gonna quit just for 1 or two people to feel better about themselves

Just like this person,

http://*****magazine.org/post/save-vs-sexism-kickstarting-sexism

you may not like it, others do, deal with it, especially since their a collectable, not as if the market will be swamped with them, such as Space marines, then it may be a problem

[SaveModifier]

Its not like a news reporter, because he is the one doing it, if we're using your analogy, then its the murder apologising for killing someone while stabbing them in the face, its a bad analogy, but then, so was yours to start with.

And I read that article a couple of months ago and it is a really good article by a woman expressing her opinions about these distasteful models and a lot of horrible comments from sexist morons that support these pin ups. Not that everyone buying the models is a sexist moron, just there is a lot of anonymous hateful speech in the comments section.

It happens a lot in any situation when women try to make themselves heard and represented in what was traditionally seen as a "male" pastime, the Tropes Vs Women in gaming series for example, a woman looking at how she was represented in the gaming industry was met with a tremendous amount of scorn and hate, for nothing more than pointing out that things in gaming made women uncomfortable.

I love my hobby and I wish it was open to all, but while Kingdom Death and others are still making miniatures like that, a lot of women will be put off by our shared hobby and I find that very sad.

[AnEnemy]

So which stretch goal level unlocked the soap box?

[Deadlift]

Just going to chime in with a small fact,

I would LOVE to create some male pinups! I have been researching and speaking to some various artists however I have not found someone to work with yet. The process requires letting the specialist have full, open-armed, freedom of expressing their ideas / feelings unto the concept art and thus far I have not found an approprite artist to collaborate with yet.

From a business perspective, it is no secret that the pinup range allowed us to raise funds for many other, more exploratory facets of Kingdom Death. Because of this, they are internally treated with the same creative respect as the rest of the brand. The pinups do not have official game rules as they are not cannon to the world.

I can however, understand and respect peoples personal views and opinions. And I apologize if you are offended.

Its always great to see a company take the time out to talk with us hobbyists about their products and give us a little insider info. Thanks.

[Denzark]

Just remember these are the people who were sick enough to produce the Wetnurse. They want to titivate in order to make it more likely that people in need of a cheap thrill will give them money. Very talented technically for sure, but their designs are all about the cheap thrill.