What would GW have to do to drive you away?

[Kahoolin]

...If you haven't been driven away already that is.

I've been thinking about this after reading about GW's cease and desist letter to Board Game Geek, and reading the same indignant reactions events like this always generate, and I've been trying to work out what exactly GW would have to do to make me stop buying their products and playing their games. Frankly, aggressive IP protection isn't going to make me so mad that I abandon my hobby on moral grounds, and I've realized that very little would. That's right, I am having trouble coming up with any possible scenario that might drive me away from GW for any serious length of time.

I realized that I enjoy GW products for a complex web of reasons. I find them familiar and comforting because I've played since I was about 10. I remember the old days when it felt like GW products were created by gamers for the sole purpose of fun. I have seen the background grow into the huge and complex beast it is today, able to inspire nerds the world over into debates the equal of any Trek fan's. I really enjoy the creative aspect of painting and modeling. And, surprising as it may seem, I enjoy the flawed, vague game mechanics, because that's how it's always been and it makes for a relaxed game where I can leave the killer instinct and rules lawyering at home.

My other main love, even before GW, was D&D. With 4th edition D&D I abandoned the game completely. I read the book and it just . . . didn't feel like D&D any more. It was slick, and modern, and the mechanics felt like they simulated a video game RPG. I'm sure it's a great game, but it didn't give me that sense of connection to the first game of AD&D I played back in primary school. Why was there a Dragonman? Where was the Gnome Illusionist? Why had the Half-Orc turned into an emo anime dude with demon's blood? I haven't picked up a D20 since, but I still fondly read my old editions and *sniff* my Dragon magazines.

Now I think if GW rehashed 40k for example, and made the ruleset slick, and tight, and modern, and got rid of all the silly old things like the D6 base, I-Go-You-Go and the clunky AP mechanic I don't think I would want to play it anymore. Likewise if they changed the fluff so as to be unrecognizable.

Yet I WOULD still play - because I have armies of beautiful models I have collected, converted and painted. Even if I absolutely despised the rules and fluff, I would probably quit playing and buying books but keep buying Citadel minis just to paint. If the price of the minis got too high, I'd just buy the best ones :P I would always have the nostalgia of old GW and my shelf full of books to fall back on.

So basically, it seems to me that the only way I would stop buying GW/Citadel products completely is if the ceased to make them. Scary thought.

Internet moral outrage aside, is there anything really, honestly, that GW could do that would make you stop buying their stuff? If you have already stopped buying GW/Citadel products, like I have with D&D, please tell us why.

[lobster-overlord]

The only thing that made me even think about ditching GW was when they were toying with the idea of using Sabertooth Games to release a MageKnight like version of 40K on click bases. Now, I never found out if that rumor was true, but my distributor was adament that it was in the works. Thankfully, that partnership disolved completely. 40K doesn't need to be in card game, click-game, form anymore than MageKnight needed 2.0. The industry push was towards grabbing kids in, and then keeping them as adults, and for about 3 years, the prepainted game seemed to do it. Thankfully, those kids got sucked in and saw GW products and laughed off MK and HC and the like.

I stopped buying Star Wars products. That came out of the fact that there are too many products to choose from and I get OCD about collecting things (which would explain why every army I have can be fielded in Apocalypse but not on a regular table).

John M>

[Kahoolin]

Do you mean if they turned fantasy and 40k into clix games, or if they released a clix game? Because if they just released a clix game alongside the flagship games that wouldn't stop me buying their products - though there's no way in hell I'd buy the clix game.

If they turned the flagships into clix then yes, I would stop buying them too!

I really hope we get some more responses, I'm genuinely curious. Probably no-one comes to this end of the forum :(

[Melissia]

At the moment? They'd need to get rid of the Sisters as an official faction that can operate on their own in the tabletop, and then stop supporting the Imperial Guard or Orks. It'd be a pretty major thing if they did all of these.

[ColCorbane]

That's a very difficult question. Partly because I've got so much invest in this hobby and how much this hobby means to me. But also, I'm reaching the point where I'm not depending on GW for my hobby, I'm looking into using other ranges, buying off ebay, converting and scratch building.

I honestly can't think of anything that you make me walk away from the hobby, but then I've already distanced myself from GW.

[clkeagle]

Mentally and emotionally, I'm starting down a similar path as Col Corbane. I never forsee a time in my future where I don't have collections of Epic and 40k armies and terrain. But that's where it will probably end for me. Over the next few months, I'm going to greatly reduce my basement-sized collection to the handful of armies that I regularly use, and sell the rest.

I saw a comment on TTGN a few weeks ago about how GW has attempted to imprint "The GW Hobby" in gamers' minds, rather than "the tabletop wargame hobby." GW may be the largest supplier in this hobby, but they are far from the only one out there. In terms of miniatures they are kings, hands-down. Nobody is producing plastics with the quality or variety that GW has. But for me, that just isn't enough to keep me going back. The prices have grown far too high since I became a family man, and the quality of their rulesets has never matched their models. The only ruleset from GW that I have ever enjoyed playing is the old Epic 40,000 system. I have NEVER liked playing or teaching the rules for 40k. 2nd Edition was fun but slow, and to me, the "fun" aspect has been removed with each subsequent edition.

All we have left now are ancient and clumsy shooting/assault mechanics that are streamlined to sell large forces. But support for those forces is abysmal... it's a slap in the face to gamers NOT to have comprehensive, stop-gap army lists each edition (like 2nd and 3rd did). Lately I've taken to using Forge of War as an alternative 40k ruleset. The games have produced identical results and taken half the time to play. That has brought the fun back into it for me. I've played Epic:Armageddon enough to understand its appeal, but it isn't as enjoyable to me as Epic 40k. So that is the 6mm system that I still play, on those rare occasions I'm able to play it.

But I've also started branching out from GW altogether, especially with sales of my unused forces. There are too many other manufacturers that are now producing great ranges, especially at the increasingly-popular 15mm scale. I can sell a handful of unused 40k Tyranids and acquire a full army's worth of models from Rebel Minis or Critical Mass Games or Ground Zero. While "assembling" 15mm metal armies isn't as pleasurable as a new plastic GW set, it does let me model, paint, base, and field a game-ready army in a few evenings.

Another part of it is the corporate-vs-small-business feel to these manufacturers. Most of GW's interaction with veteran gamers these days seems to be from its legal department. On the other hand, when a 15mm manufacturer releases something new, the owner usually responds in person to comments and questions. After years of solely dealing with GW, it's a pretty cool concept to speak directly with designers/owners/sculptors.

So I guess my message to everyone here is, if there is anything that you don't like about GW, it's okay to look at other options. You never know when something will grab your interest.

[Lord Azaghul]

Hmm, I’m not really sure on this one. I think if my friends all stopped playing I’d stop too…

But what could gw do? Well they are about a stones throw from me quiting fantasty. They have pretty much ruined that game, and at the moment I’m just holding for the 8th ed hoping it repairs some of the damage – I just hope gw realizes that not everybody wants to play a ‘bad guy’ army (or even every bad guy army for that matter). In fact I’m expecting 8th to not fix anything, and thus bracing myself to ‘quit’. However that probably means my armies will sit in the closet until they get new books or the game become ‘fun’ again.

In 40k the price thing is driving me crazy, but that just means I spend more time searching the web for better deals and buying less at my local store. It also means I buy less frequently, and in smaller amounts.
I think if gw starting turning 40k into ‘hero hammer’ and starting throwing ‘uber pykers’ into the game what would begin to put me off. And if 40k begins to resemble the current start of fantasty I would probably just stop buying crap, sure I’d still play, but I’d gradually become bitter, and eventually hate the hobby altogether, make a last ditch effort to ‘keep up’ by buying SM then after 6 months realize that the game isn’t fun any more…but other then that I’m not sure.

[fuzzbuket]

My 3 gaming mates stopped playing
a) hated painting and winning **cheat**
B) lost rulebook and disliked painting
c) quit because a+b quit and played crons

but then 2 of my other freinds started playing
D) is a good gamer and is learning to paint off me
E) just likes buying and gaming!

if your mates stop playing show your other mates (if they like halo+ GOW they probably like 40k!)

[Wolfen]

They already drove me away:

Over priced products
Rules that are retarded at best and plain stupid at worst
Over priced products
Lack of support for other armies
Over feeding marines as the uber-non can beat me- type of army
Did I said over priced products and jokeable rules?

Besides that the fluff is stagnant --- there is allways an uber-apocalypse comming over the heads... but 1 of two things happen:
a) imperium wins and nothing happens
b) historically imperium have won and nothing happens

The story is not advancing... at all

The minis have quality as in Product, but most minis are just wron proportions and so on... not my thing

And I hate this "GW hobby" as if ONLY painting your army and has to be GW would be THE HOBBY

[Faultie]

They could:
Produce shoddy rules
Produce models I like less than alternatives
Poorly support the game
Make poor development decisions
Make poor business decisions
Cease support for armies which I have bought, assembled, and painted.
Increase cost to a level significantly beyond the alternatives
Create a game world that is interesting and fun, but translates to a less-enjoyable tabletop experience for myriad reasons

Wait...they already did.
I'm still here because I like the background, and too many models to quit.

[Gooball]

If they stopped giving guards massive amounts of infantry and the best tanks
or if they dont make the newer 'dexes capable of bringing high elves down
i dont mind if beastmen empire bretonnia and lizardmen (randomly picked) were all power armys above the rest, as long as there is more than 2 . . (i play T.k and O+G . . .might explain a lot)

[Mauglum.]

Hi all.
When they changed thier focus to '...selling toy soldiers to kiddies...' (Tom Kirby GW Chairman.)

As I am a gamer over the age of 25 , they have NOTHING to offer me.
There are better rule sets ,and much cheaper minatures and hobby suplies available elsewhere.
And as I dont need GW to spoon feed me thier version of the tabletop minatures game hobby.

We parted company years ago.;)


TTFN

[eldargal]

If they stop producing superb miniatures in a variety of appealing aesthetics based around one of the most compelling science fictions there is, that will drive me away. The rules don't matter so much to me, because I don't need to be spoon fed my hobby by GW I can just house rule anything that doesn't make sense.;)

[Mauglum.]

Hi eldargal.
You like GW minatures so you buy them.You like the GW background and associated asthetics.
Fair enough , these are GW 'best bits'.;)

And if you like collecting and painting etc, GWs minatures are just as valid as other companies.(You pay your money and make your chioce.)

BUT if you buy 40k/WHFB rule sets and codex/army book publications , these ARE GWs versions of the table top minature wargame hobby.
And after paying relativley high prices for these publications , you then proof read and edit them for GW , to arrive at a version of thier game that is actualy playable/enjoyable for you.

Is it not similar to buying lemons from GW at very high prices, and then making your own lemonade out of it.(Which is a very good and mature way of dealing with lemons.)

But you dont think you are being spoon fed lemons by GW???:eek:

As GW doesnt think its rule sets are very important either, you are probably one of GW prime demographic.:D

I am definatley NOT in GWs prime demoghraphic.As I (and most 'gamers') think the rules are as just as important as the minatures.

GW is fine for 'collectors', but tends to 'short change' 'gamers' somewhat , compared to other companies.(In my experiance.)

The table top minature wargames hobby has a wide spectrum of activities ,each as valid and involving as any other.
There is no right and wrong, just what is right for you.;)

But unecisarily limiting yourself to one companies products , seems a bit restrictive.IMO.

TTFN

[eldargal]

Well I do agree limiting oneself to a single company is unnecessarily restrictive, I've never done so myself. I use a lot of non-GW stuff for conversions and have recently become quite enthused about Dystopian Wars, if only my order would arrive.:rolleyes:
I actually get quite annoyed by the either/or attitude displayed by many gamers.

[Mauglum.]

Hi eldargal.
I agree that variety is the spice of life.
I use a wide range of minatures and rule sets.
I dont exclude GW rule sets , in fact the good ones like Blood Bowl,Spacehulk, EA,etc get played alot at our local game club.;)

We only object to 40k and WHFB rule sets as they do NOT do the inpsiring background justice .(In our opinion.)

Enjoy your hobby , and make it your own!

(It never has belonged to GW plc, so the 'GW hobby' (tm) does not realy exist beyond corperate marketing hype!)

TTFN

[Grimnar42]

Hmmm Interesting question well in a way they have already driven me away at least as a customer. I haven't bought directly off GW in over 10 years if I need something new I source from internet suppliers but mainly I buy second hand off ebay these days.

I still love the models and the background but I think GW customer support is woeful. Remember Space Wolf scouts with the out of proportion heads and arms (too small) rushed into production to take advantage of a demand and almost as quickly taken off the market or the screw top paint pots that dried up in a matter of weeks or leaked everywhere even when new and unopened GW finally admitted a serious fault with them they knew about before releasing them Codex's full of mistakes or the 2 I think 3rd ed was it Chaos codex's the ever climbing prices the lack of support for older armies a magazine that is just a advisement now and so on.

I still love the hobby but I am no longer a GW customer. At least not directly.

[Behemotty]

Simple, really.

1. Being the oldest person in a store when I'm only 22.
2. The ridiculous heat inside.
3. If the story doesn't change by the next edition.
4. Confusing blister arrangement on shelves, WHY?

The reason I'm collecting in the first place is to sort of honour a friend that I played with back in high school who passed away recently. The aesthetics are really very appealing, and I enjoy the silliness that comes with the whole universe. But I certainly don't enjoy going into stores. I feel quite a bit embarrassed if I come out with a GW plastic bag. And the looks that you get from general members of public...

See, if I could get a coffee at one of the shops, if they had comfortable furniture where I could take in a game - I'd be happy! It could be the highlight of my day.

[HsojVvad]

For me, as others have said, is GW is pricing me out of the hobby. When I was buying GW stuff, I knew it was overpriced, but they still keep increasing the prices year after year. Now it's just ridiculous for me.

Also I am not part of GW demographics. By that, I have spent my $500-$1000 worth of stuff and I am not "fresh blood" anymore, so they want me out the door. So why would I want to come back and buy more overpriced stuff when GW doesn't really care for me anymore?

So no support for vetreans.

[Porty1119]

What would it take for me to quit? Hmm....
-A $100 boxed set, non-super-heavy or multimodel
-Dumbing down the rules to the level of Ex Illis
-Requiring a computer like Ex Illis
-Requiring models be bought and 'registered' (no proxies) like Ex Illis
-WHFB-style catastrophic game unbalance

[Lane]

What would drive me away?

cost? Miniature pricing does not affect me much since I have a fairly large and varied collection.

Rules? GW never has had an optimal rule set but the games are still fun. Unless another company can both write a better set of rules and support them for at least five years I doubt I would drop GW over rules.

Community? there are so many WHFB and 40K players out there that you can generally find a game, not always true about other systems.

The one thing that would drive me away would be a change in marketing.

If GW went to a "Collectible" packaging I would quit. Let's say if 6th ed 40k went collectible and there were no more Codex, instead the rules were printed by mini or squad and packaged randomly along with random minis. Made that mistake with the WWII naval game WoTC put out. No way will I ever buy random packed minis with some being uncommon and rare.

[jonsgot]

I've worked out my response. Continue to drive me friends away. Two of the people I regularly game with have stopped playing. The last one said

"I'm quitting. A) Not enough time and B) Really not interested in what they have done with the rules.(plays Orks and Chaos)....GW really all over - they don't think it through and write rules to sell models. I don't have the inclination to play at all."
Ironically this guy played with Matt Ward at Uni :)

I've only got 1 person who I can regularly play now. All others have moved away or quite. Very sad. I hope they get 7th Ed right or I think I'll be off to.

[Arkhan Land]

nothing will ever drive me off from playing 40k just from buying GW miniatures. In my adult life I have raised about 15,000 points of 40k armies but I probably bought less than 5% of that new... had prices been more reasonable I would have much rather bought new kits with full options and bits. But I didnt, and now that I've gotten real good at deal hunting and paint stripping chances are I never will again

[Wildeybeast]

Get me a girlfriend.

[Chris Copeland]

Get me a girlfriend. Wildeybeast wins the internet!