Kill it With Fire!

[Just_Me]

I am sure this question has been asked before, but it is something I have always wondered about. If a unit has a flamer and targets something too far away to hit with the flamer can it still fire the flamer and "happen" to hit something else nearby? Technically flamers don't really "target" anything, and the rules do assume that flamers can cover multiple units, but is this just a really cheap abuse of the letter of the rules, or does can it be done?

[Nabterayl]

I'm inclined to say no. Page 17 says that "if a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically." Page 29 goes on to say that template weapons have "the word 'template' for their range instead of a number." So it's not like a template weapon doesn't have a maximum range. It does - its maximum range is "template."

This being the case, it seems to me that page 17 still applies. If you fire a template weapon at a target and the target turns out to be beyond the range of the template, the shot "misses automatically." Granted, the rules don't tell us that a template which misses automatically has the same effect as not firing at all. However, we do know what happens to blast weapons which miss automatically (e.g., because the marker ends up beyond the weapon's maximum range) - it's as if the shot was never fired at all. Hence, I think it's reasonable to interpret template weapons the same way.

[Just_Me]

Makes sense, to be honest I would feel very uncomfortable doing that anyway, it just seems abusive...

[imperialsavant]

:rolleyes: However Blast Template weapons CAN scatter on to units other than the Target unit so Perhaps a flamer template can affect units other than the target unit even if it is out of range (?)
I know I have covered more than one unit with the Flamer but then some models of the target unit were in range.

I guess we need someone (like bigred or jwolf!) to make a call on this one!:confused:

[Nabterayl]

Blast weapons can scatter onto other units, yes, but only if the final template placement is in range. If I fire a mortar with a 48" range at a target, and the marker lands on another unit 50" away, the mortar shot just goes away entirely, even though the template landed on a unit.

[Duke]

I am sure this question has been asked before, but it is something I have always wondered about. If a unit has a flamer and targets something too far away to hit with the flamer can it still fire the flamer and "happen" to hit something else nearby? Technically flamers don't really "target" anything, and the rules do assume that flamers can cover multiple units, but is this just a really cheap abuse of the letter of the rules, or does can it be done?

As a tangent to this question: I have seen units fire a flamer at the tank in front of them and having part of the template hit the unit behined the tank. The flamer obviously does nothing to the vehicle that was the target, but the unit behined gets hit.

Duke

[Just_Me]

Blast weapons can scatter onto other units, yes, but only if the final template placement is in range. If I fire a mortar with a 48" range at a target, and the marker lands on another unit 50" away, the mortar shot just goes away entirely, even though the template landed on a unit.

Not as I recall, I thought they specifically mentioned this by saying that scatter can take the shot beyond normal maximum range (I am too lazy to break out the rulebook right now and check though :p)

[Nabterayl]

Not as I recall, I thought they specifically mentioned this by saying that scatter can take the shot beyond normal maximum range (I am too lazy to break out the rulebook right now and check though :p)

Ah, I see. You're correct. I was misreading the sentence, "If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed" (p. 30). As you correctly point out, three paragraphs later they make it clear that by "if the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range" they mean if the target point is beyond the weapon's maximum range. So you can scatter beyond maximum range, but if you aim beyond maximum range, the shot essentially doesn't fire at all.

I think that's still a good analogy for template weapons, though. Do you agree?

[Just_Me]

...I think that's still a good analogy for template weapons, though. Do you agree?

Yes, I am inclined to agree with your interpretation.

[Dingareth]

So you can scatter beyond maximum range, but if you aim beyond maximum range, the shot essentially doesn't fire at all.

I think that's still a good analogy for template weapons, though. Do you agree?

This right here. It's perfect alright for a template to hit two units; however, it may not target a completely independent unit. This came up when the Ironclad was first released- 2 Heavy Flamers and 2 Hunter Killer Missiles

Also, you must try to cover as much of the unit that you are targeting as possible, which also lessens the effect of this on other units. However, Sternguard hopping out a Drop Pod make it easy to knock out 3 or more units at once- 2 Heavy Flamers, some Combi-Flamers and even a few Combi-Meltas at a tank can make for same havoc. Just remember to target the farthest unit away, as that will give you more control about how you place them template generally.

[ChaosDave]

first template, blast are two different markers when you place a flamer template you set it down touching the base of the shooter. if you dont reach the target unit you miss. if you use a blast template and place the center hole beyond the range of the weapon you missed.there changed it you were right JUST ME. if you are use buildings or ruins you really need to read the rules a few times because each type of fire works in its own way.

[Just_Me]

if you dont reach the target unit you miss. if you scatter beyond the range of the weapon you missed.

In this one respect you are incorrect. You cannot place a marker beyond maximum range, if you do then you automatically miss, the same as you would if you declared fire against a unit outside of weapon range. However, if you scatter beyond maximum range then you still resolve the shot as normal.

[ChaosDave]

just me---- yes i was wrong. you can scatter past the range and hit something. but you can not place the markers center hole past its max range. so once you scatter the shots good to go.

[LastManOnearth]

This came up in a game today and really has me pissed off, since it was ruled legal.

Basically, my opponent would line up units with flamers to place the edge of a close combat between the flamer and another unit on the other side. They would then "target" the far unit, which might be 12" or 24" or more away with the flamer, placing it such that it covered my models locked in close combat but none of theirs, but was unable to reach the "target" (which was never the intention). They then claimed that they were positioning the flamer legally since the rules only state that the narrow end must touch the flamer (true) and the template covered as many models in the target unit as possible (in this case, zero, since it was too far away) without touching any friendly models. They would then roll to wound my models in close combat covered by the template.

This would seem to violate a couple of fundamental rules of shooting: only being able to fire weapons that are in range of the target and not being able to fire into close combat, but it was ruled that the template weapon rules aren't explicit about the shot failing if the template cannot be placed to cover any models in the target unit and don't explicitly disallow shooting through close combat [as long as no friendly models are touched].

Anyhow, from now on I will refuse to continue any game where this is deemed legal.

LMoE

[Jwolf]

This came up in a game today and really has me pissed off, since it was ruled legal.

Basically, my opponent would line up units with flamers to place the edge of a close combat between the flamer and another unit on the other side. They would then "target" the far unit, which might be 12" or 24" or more away with the flamer, placing it such that it covered my models locked in close combat but none of theirs, but was unable to reach the "target" (which was never the intention). They then claimed that they were positioning the flamer legally since the rules only state that the narrow end must touch the flamer (true) and the template covered as many models in the target unit as possible (in this case, zero, since it was too far away) without touching any friendly models. They would then roll to wound my models in close combat covered by the template.

This would seem to violate a couple of fundamental rules of shooting: only being able to fire weapons that are in range of the target and not being able to fire into close combat, but it was ruled that the template weapon rules aren't explicit about the shot failing if the template cannot be placed to cover any models in the target unit and don't explicitly disallow shooting through close combat [as long as no friendly models are touched].

Anyhow, from now on I will refuse to continue any game where this is deemed legal.

LMoE

This is explicitly prohibited in the rules. SHOOTING INTO & OUT OF CLOSE COMBAT (P.40) "While blast markers and templates ay not be deliberately placed such that they cover any mdels locked in combat, they may end up there after scattering and will then hit any models the touch (friends and foes!)."

I wouldn't be too hard on your opponent or the person who ruled this as legal; this bit is not where it should be in the rules, and not all that obvious. But now you can show them the rules and no longr get flambed in close combat.

[Duke]

I woudl agree with Jwolf here.

The only way a template/ blast marker can be on units in close combat is if it scatters...

Duke

[Jwolf]

I woudl agree with Jwolf here.

The only way a template/ blast marker can be on units in close combat is if it scatters...

Duke

I have no position, other than the rules are not located in the most convenient location within the book. Agreeing with the printed rules is a good idea, though, Duke. ;)

[Duke]

I have no position, other than the rules are not located in the most convenient location within the book. Agreeing with the printed rules is a good idea, though, Duke. ;)

Yea, generally speaking I like to follow the rules... Unless it is in my best interest to not follow them.

I suppose you could call me "Chaotic-lawful,"

Duke