6th Edition - A new golden age?

[Mr Mystery]

Evening all.

Scoffed my pizza, and now time for a more in depth thread.

Been slinging this one around in my head for a couple of weeks, and figured now is the time to discuss it!

As per the title.... Are we now gaming a genuine golden age of Warhammer 40,000?

I genuinely believe we are.

My reasoning? The rules and missions tend to encourage a decent mix of shooty and hitty in your list. I know some feel that assault has been nerfed into oblivion, but I counter by pointing out it was long overpowered. It's still key to taking and holding objectives, and thus winning, but if you try the older tactics of heading pell mell into the enemies guns, you are going to get shot to bits. So you now need to consider it a bit more, and come up with ways to either swamp your opponent with targets, or shield your best assault troops from all that dakka.

The armies and models? Beautiful Simply stunning. Fewer gaps in the range than ever before, and reducing all the time. Far, far fewer hybrid kits, and increasing levels of all plastic armies

We've got Codex Supplements encouraging further variety without bogging down the main Codex for those who mostly just want to game.

Sister of Battle, a long maligned force have had the studio's commitment shown in the release of an E-Codex which is I understand more than merely functional. not quite the full shilling, but a very welcome addition bringing the army up to speed with the general 6th Ed vibe.

Game supplements? Lawks-a-mercy have we got gaming supplements. Cities of Death. Planetstrike. Apocalypse. Escalation. Strongpoint one. Battle Missions. Extra missions in the codex supplements which suit that army. We now have more ways than before to play the game, keeping it fresher for longer. And every one of them is optional! They're not expansions to the main ruleset which fundamentally change the game, they're for pre-agreed games.

Scenery? In. Spades. It's now easy (if not cheap, but I'll come onto price in a moment) to create a decent looking battlefield. Back when I started 40k (1994, birth of 2nd Edition) my general inability in the realm of arts and crafts meant my boards looked rubbish, and most of my scenery was the nice to look at, but not what you might call hard wearing cardboard and plastic bulkhead stuff, which was pretty static. The imperial buildings kits are particularly nice, as even a numpty like me can use them to make really nice, varied terrain.

Price? In all honesty, I care not for the price. I don't mean this in a boasting manner, but I'm a bachelor with a decent job, and no dependants. I can afford the prices, and will continue to play as long as this remains my own personal status quo. I get my monies worth out of it, so all gravy with me. I appreciate you mileage in this area may vary.

Paints? I hate painting me. I can rarely be arsed with it, as I never really developed decent techniques. But with the current paint range, and their simpleton branding I can still churn out pretty decent results :)

Background. I'm loving it. New historical stuff being added, even if it's just a timeline entry in a Codex. Every race now feels properly fleshed out. Every race fits in.

Forgeworld? Black Library? Two words for you. Horus. Heresy. Total and utter nerdgasm for me. Gorgeous models, brilliant background. Oh, and Primarchs.

In short? Never before have we had such variety in the game. Never before have we had such high quality miniatures in the game. And no, it's still not perfect. Yes balance issues still remain, but likely always will (that's the price of a wide variety!) The game feels more polished than ever before. I can rock up to a game with a random list of randomness, and know I can give my opponent a run for his money (of particular appeal to me, as I'm the sort who relishes a challenge, whether work or play).

I now throw open the floor to you my interwebular chums. Although I've made a statement, remember the thread itself is a question, so chip in :)

[YorkNecromancer]

Totally agree with all the above points apart from the one regarding price. Now, I am also a gentleman with a well-paid job. I can buy whatever I wish, and have - I now have at least a 2000 point army for every codex, with the exception of Space Wolves and Daemons because I hate their models.

However, as the guy in charge of running the school gaming club, I can tell you now: ain't none of the kids can afford a damn thing. So, I asked for some money to get things up and running, and we had enough for a Dark Vengeance boxed set, a couple of bits of scenery, and that's it.

I see all these young people, all desperate to get into the game, just like I was, and it's a beautiful, beautiful thing, to see someone go for the first time: "Wait, it's set in the future? But they have AKs? And there are space elves? And orcs? And world war 1 tanks?" and just that look of wonderful recognition - that this is the single greatest thing they have ever seen.

But they can't afford it. Not in a "I can get an army box at Xmas" way, in a "I will never be able to get the money together" way. :(

We're definitely in a golden age; especially now that the tournaments have finally stepped up and stopped expecting Big Daddy GW to hold their hands when it comes to producing a balanced game. They finally, finally listened to the "make the game what you want it to be" advice. It's wonderful.

I just wish everyone could enjoy it. :(

[euansmith]

6th Edition is more of a Golden Shower to my way of thinking. I really wish GW would take a big hammer to 40k and totally rework the game system to be streamlined, fast playing and fun with clear, concise and balanced rules. Micromanaging the position of every individual figure, dealing with True Line of ****e, the ridiculous methods for determining wounds, the saves upon saves upon saves, buckets of dice... these are things that make me despair of 40k.

[SaveModifier]

6th Edition is more of a Golden Shower to my way of thinking. I really wish GW would take a big hammer to 40k and totally rework the game system to be streamlined, fast playing and fun with clear, concise and balanced rules. Micromanaging the position of every individual figure, dealing with True Line of ****e, the ridiculous methods for determining wounds, the saves upon saves upon saves, buckets of dice... these are things that make me despair of 40k.


Really sounds like you don't want to play Warhammer 40K sorry, all those things you don't like are part of the game and most have been from early on sorry!

[Cactus]

But they can't afford it. Not in a "I can get an army box at Xmas" way, in a "I will never be able to get the money together" way. :(

I just wish everyone could enjoy it. :(

I agree. Why buy 1 tank, when you can get a video game that's ready to play out of the box? Why not buy 50 to 75 games for your phone?

It's hard to justify to a new gamer that you'll need 10 - 15 video games worth of stuff, just to get rolling in 40k or WHFB; not to mention the time reading rules, gluing models and finding a friend/store to do the same.

[Denzark]

Its a golden age alright - I just get an impending sense of doom sometimes somewhat like the fluff Golden Age was followed by a whole toilet of cack.

[DarkLink]

5th had a better balance of shooting and assault. You could still play a purely assault army on the offensive. In 6th, assault is almost exclusively about tying up your opponent's stuff while you shoot, with the occasional rare exception. The main reason GKs have taken such a hard hit in 6th is that they are an offensive army balanced between assault and shooting, and with the assault nerfs they either get tied up or out-shot by Tau or Eldar. Daemons can do it because they're extremely mobile and have plenty of options both for killing stuff and for tying stuff up in assault. But other books, like 'nidz, fail in that their heavy hitters are all overpriced or underpowered. They're great at tying stuff up, but when they run into something that does it better, they fall apart, and their MCs just aren't durable enough to stand up to the new shooting that's out there.

And, as euansmith says, 6th has taken a massive, massive step backwards in terms of playability. It takes much more time and effort just figuring out what your random abilities are, and what the different objectives are worth, and how far your charge range is, and all of these extra layers of complexity that they've shoveled on. Complexity for complexity's sake is not a good thing. And what were they thinking with Look Out Sir? That's the single worst mechanic I've ever had to deal with. I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell my opponents "everyone in that unit has the same save, stop rolling your damn dice one at a time".

Now, early 6th was a big improvement overall, with stuff like hull points balancing out most of 5th's problems. But with some of the new codices, there are equally big problems out there right now.

[Katharon]

I have hope...but I'll not wait on it.

[Sly]

I worry that it seems good largely because they're throwing everything at the wall in the hope that some good stuff will stick to it... but that's not how you write a game system, and I worry that some of the crap that they're throwing (D-class weapons, Formations for everyone, etc), as obvious "let people play with their toys" money-grabs, are going to unbalance the game to the point where it goes back to 2nd edition. They spent a good deal of the time since then trying to get into a state of better balance, and now they seem to be giving up that plan completely.

[silashand]

But they can't afford it. Not in a "I can get an army box at Xmas" way, in a "I will never be able to get the money together" way. :(

We're definitely in a golden age; especially now that the tournaments have finally stepped up and stopped expecting Big Daddy GW to hold their hands when it comes to producing a balanced game. They finally, finally listened to the "make the game what you want it to be" advice. It's wonderful.

I just wish everyone could enjoy it. :(

Yep. This +1 :(.

[Lexington]

"Golden" is a bit much - an age of good intentions (or, at least, sales-based policies that imitate them), sure. Allies. Supplements. Active terrain. Fluff-based oddities like the Inquisition Codex. They're all great ideas, often long overdue, and they give us a 40K that, given players of the right mindset, acts much more like the universe it's supposed to be based on, and expands the scope of play by a plentiful mix of leaps and bounds.

Unfortunately, the execution...lacks.

The problems are many, really. 6th Edition, from a rules development standpoint, just isn't that good. There's huge imbalances, the most obvious being between shooting and assault. This was less of a problem in 2nd Edition, where the armies were designed to shoot first and maybe get into close combat later, but we're a good fifteen years of development beyond that, much of which has involved whole armies prioritizing axes over guns. Sure, assault was overpowered...back in 3rd Edition. Since then, it's been more or less balanced, but 6th has altered that dramatically. One can say that an army has to "think about" assault now, and that's true. You have to think a lot to get to hand-to-hand. You have to strategize, brave distances, be lucky enough to get a few units through massed fire, and then hope you don't botch that random charge roll - remember, you're now facing Overwatch fire either way. Comparatively, shooting engenders no such risk. Point. Click. Watch as your opponent removes an increasingly large number of models.

That's just one aspect among many. You have silly rules like challenges, which hamstring whole armies (hi, Chaos!). Then you've got the psyker tables, which both pointlessly randomize psychic powers, and are unbalanced in and of themselves. There's a reason every Codex is accompanied by the prayers of players hoping their army will have access to Divination. The difficulty with Flyers is well-documented, and the tools to deal with them are ill-distributed. Then there's Escalation, Strongpoint and Formations, which so much of the community has spent the last few weeks in a not-undeserved tizzy over. There's just too many big issues, and they're piling up with every Codex, Supplement and Expansion. All this, and you've still got big, sticky problems like Riptide and Helldrake spam, and the new hotness of near-invincible units wrecking hell on everyone, relying on re-rollable 2++ saves.

There's a lot to like about 6th Ed, but it's hard to see past all the ugly sometimes.

[SaveModifier]

Hobbies aren't cheap, there are no cheap hobbies, you'll always want more than you can afford.

I agree with Mystery. The game is back to being fun again, I quit not long into 3rd edition because it felt to me that they stripped all the fun away from the game, (obviously this was all pre-internet community and no one had really even considered that this could be a competitive game, put you tournament weirdos would have loved it) but now that's back, allies and supplements mean I can play the army I want to represent the fluff more easily than ever, I was a Xenos Inquisitor leading an IG force with some Space Marines in drop pods to thunder down a few turns in and now I can do that in the game. If you go looking for ways the break the game, you'll find them, any sufficiently complicated system will have ways to exploit it and smash your opponents with ease, but if you actually read the rule book, you'd see that is not what this game is for (so in fact, you're not playing to the rules. See page 8 of the BRB), so complaining that it's not perfectly balanced and easily broken is pretty moot, it's like complaining that stealth pacifist runs are impossible in Halo 3, you're just playing the wrong game. Reminds me of the "competitive smash bros community", taking a fun party game and having the strip out all the silly randomness out to make it fair, when there are serious and balanced fighting games out there for that. 40k shouldn't be Final Destination, No Items, it's not Chess, or Go, it's 40k and it's daft and sometimes your army will lose and THATS OK.

The models are better than ever, the range is better, the speed with which new and interesting things are happening is amazing. It's strange to see the same community, and often the same people, who complained a few years back that rules were taking too long to update and it was making the game stale now complain that they're coming too fast and their precious "meta" can't keep up and so accusing GW of being greedy, as if they're expecting people to rush out and buy Revenant Titans because a circlejerk of blogs with a handful of readers decided after 5 minutes of reading summaries of a book on another blog decided it was overpowered. GW care about the fluff, their IP is their most valuable asset now, the models and game fuel that so they want the game to be able to reflect the over the top awesomeness of the fluff, the last ditch stands against massive war machines, sieges where space marines are hunkered down as wave after wave of Xenos attack, games like this fire the imagination of children, Adeptus Titanicus hooked me as a 12 year old (showing my age there) but no kid is going to fall in love with the 40k equivalent of Final Destination No Items, Fox vs Fox.

[Denzark]

On the subject of costs - I don't know about anyone else, but I recall taking £30 and some white dwarf twofers vouchers into a GW grand opening and coming out stacked. I now see plenty of kids coming out of GW stores with bags of stuff even muggins here couldn't blow without the missus kicking off.

Knowing the prices I think they must have MORE disposable income than I did at a similar age. Maybe it is a geographic thing, Yorky is in the grim North or summat - possibly a discussion for elsewhere?

[Mr Mystery]

There is indeed that.

I'm based in Tunbridge Wells, a very wealthy little town, predominantly middle class. Kids get regular stuff from GW.

But I've also worked in GW Blackpool, which is one of the UK's most deprived areas. Whilst sales were still healthy, it was harder to get a big one through the till.

But yeah, costs aside as it's something you either can or cannot afford, I still feel this is a golden age :)

[SaveModifier]

There is indeed that.

I'm based in Tunbridge Wells, a very wealthy little town, predominantly middle class. Kids get regular stuff from GW.

But I've also worked in GW Blackpool, which is one of the UK's most deprived areas. Whilst sales were still healthy, it was harder to get a big one through the till.

But yeah, costs aside as it's something you either can or cannot afford, I still feel this is a golden age :)

The costs have gone up but then, so have the costs of everything. Video games are now £50
Where they were £30 ten years ago, and you now have to spend more and more on DLC to get the full game, luxuries have to increase above inflation to maintain their luxury status. And anyway, my first tactical squad box was £20 and came with no options and no posability!

[Eldar_Atog]

The costs have gone up but then, so have the costs of everything. Video games are now £50

To me, video gaming has become cheaper. I can remember paying 50-60 dollars for Nintendo and Super Nintendo games. Back then, there were no "game of the year" editions or easy to find used game shops. You had to pay full price for every game.

Nowadays, I can just wait 6 months to a year and I'll be able to pick up a video game for 30 dollars with some of the DLC already loaded on the disk.

[YorkNecromancer]

To me, video gaming has become cheaper. I can remember paying 50-60 dollars for Nintendo and Super Nintendo games. Back then, there were no "game of the year" editions or easy to find used game shops. You had to pay full price for every game.


What'd be nice, is if someone could do an actual map of prices relative to inflation, so we could see if prices have risen as much as we all think, or if they're roughly in-line with inflation, relative to everything else.

Video games are in a bit of a transitional stage between discs and DLC, so it's harder to draw a bead on the 'value' of games now relative to then - especially with things like the 'free-to-play/microtransactions' model.

I will say that I remember games for the Sega Master System universally being £40, with about six 'bargain' pieces of crap in the £20 price range (of which, the undisputed king was 'Xenon 2'); compared to the original RTB01, which had 36 Marines for £11.99, and the old Imperial Army box of 36 Guardsmen for the same, wargaming was a waaaay cheaper hobby than video games in 1992. I will say I don't pay more than £20 for a computer game, and haven't since... well, ever. The value of video games drops within months. Compare that to GW. It's tricky.

What I will say, to throw the spanner in, is that tonight, I assembled a Japanese Gundam kits a friend purchased for me. It's been sat around for a year or so, because I have no idea what Gundam is, beyond a cartoon for kids I have never watched and thus lack nostalgia for. But, I wondered if it might make a good Riptide, so I assembled it, and, lo and behold, it's exactly the right size. It's a hard styrene kit, only:


Doesn't need glue.
Comes 'pre-painted' - in the sense that the plastic is exactly the colour it needs to be, so when assembled, a person so inclined could wargame with it without painting and it would look great.
Is fully posable, with 13 points of articulation.
Comes with multiple weapon options, all interchangeable.
Is easily as detailed as the Riptide.
Cost £18. £18!



Now, granted, my friend bought this from Japan, and were I to buy it on import, it'd be roughly in-line with the price of an official Riptide, but seriously: in every concievable way, this thing has GW beat. I'm going to convert it and paint it, but if I was the kind of person who just wanted to game, without painting, models like this would be amazing. I've never seen anything like it before, and for me, it completely undermines the "GW are the best in the business" argument.

They're undoubtedly manufacturers of great kits, but this thing? It's got them beat. And I don't even like Gundam, or for that matter, know a damn thing about it.

[Darren Richardson]

What I will say, to throw the spanner in, is that tonight, I assembled a Japanese Gundam kits a friend purchased for me. It's been sat around for a year or so, because I have no idea what Gundam is, beyond a cartoon for kids....
...or for that matter, know a damn thing about it.

Clearly your last statement is quite true, I DO know some things about the Gundam series (pulral, theres now over a dozen series, most of them being stand alone "Sandbox" universes so one series may have nothing to do with another, and the age range for the shows can vary from PG to 15 rated, mostly due to
the mature subjects of War and Death and Destruction, etc, in fact you should try and watch a few of the series, it's be around longer the 40k has.....

The kits (of wich I've had two of) vary in quaility, some are very basic (like mine) and come in your basic one colour only plastic (mostly green for some reason), the more expensive the kits, the better (as usually you would expect), the real problem is most of the kits come with instructions in Japanse (it makes putting the more expensive fully articualted ones a right *****).


Now to bring this back on subject, yes GW kits are expensive, but the detail you get now is so much more improved compared to the kits in the 80's and 90's, I used to have the RTB01 marines (they also came in the very early 90's in boxes of ten as well for about a £5 just before 2nd ed).

I also had the Space Marines Warriors of The Imperium box set (which had 5 figures with sperate legs, torso's, arms, backpacks, Bolters and knives, not super posable unfortunetly).

And I have also the 3rd ed marines, and more recently the lastest Devastors, and I have to say the quailty has been getting far better sculpting wise compared to those old ones, so I do think for figures we have come to a golden age.

[Caitsidhe]

I disagree entirely with the premise of the OP. I think we have, instead, "jumped the shark." What we are seeing tends to be mirrored in television and movie franchises as well. Desperate for something (anything) to try and rekindle the magic they are throwing anything and everything at the problem and hoping something sticks. From a business perspective this is called "short gain," i.e. making the presumption that past consistent profits are probably over and shelf life is limited due to any number of factors (increasing competition, changing technology, etc.). What this means is those in charge want to blitzkrieg with everything they can and milk the profit they can in the next 1-2 years before things drop like a stone. This is, of course, my opinion which is just as valid as this notion that we are in a golden age.

Let me address that golden age theory based entirely on my own, local META. I used to be able to go the local gaming stores and get a game on any day of the week, pretty much showing up at nearly any time. I might have to wait an hour for someone to show up now and then, but someone ready, willing, and able would unload their stuff. Since 6th Edition hit there has been a steady decline in that reliability (myself included). That steady decline got even more steep with the introduction of the sub-codex and other such releases. Pick up games are difficult to get unless you want to play the same 1-3 guys who haven't given up. The locals in my META were pretty hardcore. We are talking about people with massive collections and normally a real zeal. So where did the pick up games go?

Turning to the tournament scene (because it must be addressed) there are debates springing up everywhere with people angry about the new stuff which is considered 40K ok. Organizers have to try and find a blend that will make everyone happy so there are people showing up. It isn't that easy. The chief complaints are (of course) that this or that breaks the game. Those get taken with a grain of salt. No less common is the complaint that the constant flood of rules makes playing every damn game a chore because the rules are in constant flux and require so much stuff lugged around. Who can keep up?

The term "golden age" is supposed to be used to represent a time when people are the most active, happy, and the art/hobby/whatever is achieving a state which will go down in legend. It is supposed to be that time that those who follow will look back in wonder and say, "those were the days." If these are the days, I cannot imagine how awful the days to come must be.

[Popsical]

These times are in total flux in 40k. For a golden era to occur we need GW to finish releasing the full run of 6th ed stuff and then give us a couple of years of relative stability. It aint gonna happen. One hopes this constant barrage will end at some point, because if it just leads to 7th ed and this again immediately, people will pack it in in droves. It is far to expensive to keep up at this rate unless your a fanatical follower with lots of disposable income.
Many people will, like myself, stop keeping up with the jones' and become crap at the game. That wont help.

[SaveModifier]

I love nerds thinking they know about business.

A business bringing out a lot of products and encouraging people to buy products isn't milking short term games or gearing to look to be bought out, its a business being a business.
The tournament scene doesn't need to be addressed, because it isn't 40k, its very aim goes against the spirit and therefore the rules, of the game, its an entirely different beast and accounts for a tiny amount of the 40K played, the circle jerking of the internet makes it appear a lot more important than it actually is, most 40k games are played between friends in their homes or local clubs, tournaments are a tiny, tiny part of the game full of people who think they're the most important aspect. Also why would you capitalize meta?

Personal anecdotes are not equal to evidence. In my area, its easier and better than ever to get in a game of 40K.

[Popsical]

I love nerds who assume everyone they disagree with is a nerd, and then assert their own nerd opinion to prove a nerd point.

[DarkLink]

I love nerds thinking they know about business.


I don't believe anyone here has made any comments regarding GW's actual business model, savemodifier. Darren noted that kits are more expensive but also higher quality than they used to be, a perfectly reasonable statement, and York compared GW's product to that of another company that appeared better for cheaper, but that is only indirectly related to GW's business strategy. So why the attitude? The purpose of this forum isn't to tear down other poster's opinons.




A business bringing out a lot of products and encouraging people to buy products isn't milking short term games or gearing to look to be bought out, its a business being a business.

That's actually not true, though I supposed it depends on your definition of 'milking it'. Urban Dictionary defines it as:


milking ittaking more time or advantage than you're really due because you can get away with it. Short for "milking it for all it's worth."

Sara's at home taking care of her sick boyfriend. Hasn't he had that cold for two weeks? Yeah, he's milking it.

Though, apparently, this is another definition they have:


The act of filling a bong with such an excessive amount of smoke, so it appears to be filled with milk.

Other sites define it more loosely, in the sense that you're thinking. What you're either missing or ignoring is the dichotomy between the two different meanings, and that's where it's important to pay attention to the context of the other person's comments.

Stuff can mean different things to different people, and there's little point trying to argue over etymology. When he says that GW is milking it, he means that they're gouging the players, which is not necessarily the same thing as making a profit. Frankly, I don't think anyone here is actually on GW's board of directors or anything like that, so none of us are really qualified to actually claim that they could or couldn't cut prices. However, their financial statements do appear to support the claim that they are artificially raising prices, which has been reducing sales but increasing profits overall. Whether or not that's 'milking it' is subjective.



The tournament scene doesn't need to be addressed, because it isn't 40k, its very aim goes against the spirit and therefore the rules, of the game, its an entirely different beast and accounts for a tiny amount of the 40K played, the circle jerking of the internet makes it appear a lot more important than it actually is, most 40k games are played between friends in their homes or local clubs, tournaments are a tiny, tiny part of the game full of people who think they're the most important aspect.

That's an entirely subjective and massively biased opinion.

If you want some anecdotal evidence, here's some for you. The gaming store I normally go to is, I believe, the largest on the West Coast. It is not located in, say, Los Angeles, or San Diego, or one of the other major cities where you might expect it. It draws in a lot of players precisely because it has a very, very active tournament circuit. Those players buy a lot of product, and the store moves a lot of product as a result.

Tournaments are little more than organized events. Someone says 'hey, guys, let's get together and play a bunch of 40k'. You might have a personal, irrational grudge against tournaments, but frankly in my years of attending tournaments, they've done exactly one thing for me: provided me guaranteed games with good opponents.

You might not like the talk about the meta, but you'd be mistaken to assume that it represents everything there is to know about tournament players. And, frankly, having met many of the top tournament players in 40k*, I can say that the vast majority of them are pretty cool people to hang out with. Just because you see 'competitive' as a dirty word doesn't mean that everyone, or even most people, do.

More relevant to the issue, however, is that tournaments are a breeding ground for competitiveness. By that, I mean that the tournament scene reveals the 'cheesy' armies that GW missed in their extremely limited playtesting. This is entierly relevant, because while tournament players tend to learn to deal with these types of armies, or introduce some form of comp to restrict them, I've seen plenty of cases of some random kid having a bad time with 40k because his buddy stumbled across some competitive list and started beating him mercilessly with it. 40k could be much better balanced, which unquestionably leads to a higher quality game for everyone, not just tournament players, and the only way to determine imbalances is to play competitively and see what does and doesn't work.

As another supporting point, compare to Warmachine. They just had the largest Warmachine tournament ever a month or two ago. Warmachine has a much more organized and developed competitive environment than 40k. And guess what? In the top 16, all but one army was represented, and first and second place went to factions considered fairly weak by the Warmachine community. By embracing competitive play, Warmachine has done a great job creating a balanced game where every faction is viable and you're as likely to play against Trollbloods as Cryx in any given game.

Meanwhile, 60% of all 40k tournament attendees right now seems to be either Tau, Eldar, or both, with the occasional Daemons player. So which system do you think is more balanced, and how do you think it's managed to achieve that balance?



Also why would you capitalize meta?

Why do you care?



Personal anecdotes are not equal to evidence. In my area, its easier and better than ever to get in a game of 40K.

And opinions are just that, opinions. Just because you disagree with someone else's doesn't mean you should be condescending about it, nor does it lend weight to your claims (and I say claims because you really haven't actually made any arguments).


*In fact, rankings hq places me as the top GK player in the USA, and 13th overall. Which is silly, because if you look at the list it's basically the top players at our admittedly large local scene. We just have so many tournaments that it skews the results and blocks out other players who are just as good, but don't attend as many tournaments. But whatever.

[SaveModifier]

I have Dark Link on ignore so I'm going to assume he's waffling and trying to say he knows everythng about the 40k community like the joyless nerd he is.

[DarkLink]

Well, that'll save me a lot of trouble.

[Mr Mystery]

[engage teacher/parent mode]

Guys, seriously. Knock it off if you can't keep things civil. Not bothered who started what or who said what to whom.

Keep it on topic, and not attacking other's views.

[disengage teacher/parent mode]

[Dread Corsair]

I have Dark Link on ignore so I'm going to assume he's waffling and trying to say he knows everythng about the 40k community like the joyless nerd he is.

Not really I think he raises some very valid points. I am a casual player of 40k. I play only with a select group of friends with a select group of armies. Campaigns are our big thing mostly, nothing like fluffy themed armies fighting it out across a series of linked missions. Yet I believe tournament play is still a great way to enjoy the game and is worthy of consideration. The true workings of the game are exposed when played competitively. Games Workshop does seem to have steered away from the competitive scene and I think that's a shame. The argument is that GW allows you to bend the rules to play your own tournaments but that does seem a bit lazy and in reality not very practical. DarkLink is right when he says more balanced rules benefit everyone regardless of your playstyle. If the rules are better that's not going to negatively effect my fluffy campaign games, in fact it's only going to enhance it. :)

As for if we are in a golden age well perhaps not but I wouldn't call it a golden shower either. ;) Lexington summed it up nicely with an 'age of good intentions' I think. The range and quality of models and terrain pieces has never been better if you can stomach the prices. The speed of the varied supplements, additions and codices being released is nice just a shame the overall ruleset and execution isn't a bit tighter.

[The Sovereign]

I'm happy with the current codex release schedule and accompanying models, as well as some of the new rules regarding allies, overwatch, and mysterious terrain/objectives. GW seems to be getting the broad strokes right, but a lot of improvements could be made as well.

[DarkLink]

If GW tightened up the rules a little bit, 6th edition would be awesome. Right now it's kind of in a bit of a slump like it was at the end of 5th, though the sheer volume of releases has been carrying it through pretty well for now.

[AirHorse]

I like where 40k is at the moment, the release schedule and the amount of content they are putting out is great!

Some of the content is admittedly just boxing things differently(like some of these dataslates etc), but I like that they are even doing stuff like the advent calendar. And the 40k supplements are awesome, they might be light on rules, but I love that they are delving into the sub sections as they are.

In terms of rules and the actual game, I like 6th, but Im not going to pretend its by any means perfect! I think that they have the right thing in mind with where they tried to take us with 6th even if the execution isn't perfect though.

I wouldn't call this a golden age, but I think its a good time for 40k. If they keep this up I think we might possibly see a golden age at some point in the future, so I hope it all continues! Although, I can barely keep up!

[Mr Mystery]

I wonder where the Dataslates might go in the future....

You see, they're cheap to produce from a company point of view. No printing costs, just paying someone to write them and then bunging them up (I guess there is in fact more to it than that simplistic view, but you get the gist :p )

Could we see random characters being done and added to the game that way? Could be a way to let the Design Studio bring in their 'home work, just for laughs' sculpts to the game? Perhaps new units added out of the blue?

Then again, could just be a Chrimbo thing. A little treat for us nerds during the festive fun times!

[Wolfshade]

I think possibly the more popular ones could be folded into the next codex.
Also, with all these mini releases it shows a different strategy and enables GW to test the waters for slightly different rules/directiopns to see how the player base responds to it rather than just having a big see-change with the new edition launch.

[eldargal]

It would be a great way to add new special characters based on conversions/sculpts. I am thinking specifically of Iyanna Arienal from Codex: Iyanden but it could be done for BL characters or who knows what.

[Mr Mystery]

I say we start emailing them badgering them about that.

Nothing organised, but just 'are ya gonna?' type stuff.

Would be very, very cool to see random characters dropped in now and again!

[Lord-Boofhead]

6th Edition is more of a Golden Shower to my way of thinking. I really wish GW would take a big hammer to 40k and totally rework the game system to be streamlined, fast playing and fun with clear, concise and balanced rules. Micromanaging the position of every individual figure, dealing with True Line of ****e, the ridiculous methods for determining wounds, the saves upon saves upon saves, buckets of dice... these are things that make me despair of 40k.


We had that it was called 3rd ed. I still have my copy of the edition come here so I can beat you to death with it...

[Lord-Boofhead]

The tournament scene doesn't need to be addressed, because it isn't 40k, its very aim goes against the spirit and therefore the rules, of the game, its an entirely different beast and accounts for a tiny amount of the 40K played, the circle jerking of the internet makes it appear a lot more important than it actually is, most 40k games are played between friends in their homes or local clubs, tournaments are a tiny, tiny part of the game full of people who think they're the most important aspect.

THIS, 1,000 times THIS!!!!!!!

[Wolfshade]

We had that it was called 3rd ed. I still have my copy of the edition come here so I can beat you to death with it...

Urgh sa much as I hated 3rd, taking my previous 2nd away, 2nd could not cope with large games, and that was when everything was twice the price (points wise). 3rd was a nice streamlining, but I think 4 and 5 were nice tweaks and streamline/improvements to 3rd, but don't get me started at trying to recall lanes of fire for fall back. 6th I like, streamlined which was good plus some more "interesting" stuff.

[Orange]

Definitely is the Golden Age. As someone who is coming from 2nd and 3rd Ed. back into 40K in 6th, I am amazed with how many more models, special characters, rules, large and detailed models there are and how much nicer the models look. I remember seeing old Tau Broadsides after I had stopped playing and now I play Tau and have six of my own to play with as the model is a great piece. You now have plastic kits for almost every model in every army, the painting system is as easy as pie to paint with and even has a layering tutorial on their website so you know in what order to place the colours, the rulebooks are hardcover and don't break and tear apart as easy as the thumbed paperback editions, not to mention the fact that you now have eBooks which allow you to safely store your books and rules in one location, usually with quick links, so it expedites game play.

All the people I see complaining about the fact that they are upset about the way the game is going are just basement dwelling, live with their mothers, net geeks on 4chan who get off on their Space Marine battle porn as they have nothing better to do and don't even play the game as they don't know how to socialize with people outside of through a webforum.

[Lord-Boofhead]

Urgh sa much as I hated 3rd, taking my previous 2nd away, 2nd could not cope with large games, and that was when everything was twice the price (points wise). 3rd was a nice streamlining, but I think 4 and 5 were nice tweaks and streamline/improvements to 3rd, but don't get me started at trying to recall lanes of fire for fall back. 6th I like, streamlined which was good plus some more "interesting" stuff.

Not disagreeing that 2nd ed needed streamlining but 3rd ed went too far..

[Lord-Boofhead]

All the people I see complaining about the fact that they are upset about the way the game is going are just basement dwelling, live with their mothers, net geeks on 4chan who get off on their Space Marine battle porn as they have nothing better to do and don't even play the game as they don't know how to socialize with people outside of through a webforum.

And most of them don't even do that well... :P

[Sainhann]

6th Edition is more of a Golden Shower to my way of thinking. I really wish GW would take a big hammer to 40k and totally rework the game system to be streamlined, fast playing and fun with clear, concise and balanced rules. Micromanaging the position of every individual figure, dealing with True Line of ****e, the ridiculous methods for determining wounds, the saves upon saves upon saves, buckets of dice... these are things that make me despair of 40k.


Really sounds like you don't want to play Warhammer 40K sorry, all those things you don't like are part of the game and most have been from early on sorry!

No they weren't.

Oh and no this is not the Golden Age of 40K.

That happen nearly 15-20 years ago and before GW trashed the game and decided that greed and screwing their customers was the way to go.

Back then models only had one save and most of the time they didn't even have that one.

Today as euansmith as pointed out models have far to many saves and the game has become nothing but a "BUCKET OF DICE" game.

There is no balance today and GW only goal is to get you to buy 2-3 of their big huge models and actually they want you to buy 2-3 of these models for every army that you have.

For many of old 40k gamers we have several armies.

Plus GW wants you to buy the new Codexes that are not worth $55-$60+ for even one.

As euansmith stated GW needs to get individuals who actually know now to write a good set of rules that don't need pages of FAQ's right after they are put on the market.

[Sainhann]

Hobbies aren't cheap, there are no cheap hobbies, you'll always want more than you can afford.

Either should they cost so much that new individuals can't get into the game or that it takes them months just to field a small 1500 point force.

I could not afford to replace even one of my armies because doing so would run into the 4 figure range.

Oh each year that price keeps on going up.

[Pssyche]

No they weren't.

Oh and no this is not the Golden Age of 40K.

That happen nearly 15-20 years ago and before GW trashed the game and decided that greed and screwing their customers was the way to go.

Back then models only had one save and most of the time they didn't even have that one.

Today as euansmith as pointed out models have far to many saves and the game has become nothing but a "BUCKET OF DICE" game.

There is no balance today and GW only goal is to get you to buy 2-3 of their big huge models and actually they want you to buy 2-3 of these models for every army that you have.

For many of old 40k gamers we have several armies.

Plus GW wants you to buy the new Codexes that are not worth $55-$60+ for even one.

As euansmith stated GW needs to get individuals who actually know now to write a good set of rules that don't need pages of FAQ's right after they are put on the market.


This just in!
Company that makes stuff to sell, wants to sell the stuff they make...

And in other news, sick of the the way "Things Go Up Every Year", forum member demands a return to the wage he used to receive twenty years ago, citing "Things were so much better then..."

[Lord-Boofhead]

This just in!
Company that makes stuff to sell, wants to sell the stuff they make...

And in other news, sick of the the way "Things Go Up Every Year", forum member demands a return to the wage he used to receive twenty years ago, citing "Things were so much better then..."

You mean Inflation is a thing? Wow and Gee wilikers!

[Lord-Boofhead]

I could not afford to replace even one of my armies because doing so would run into the 4 figure range.

But why would you want to do that though? You do realise miniatures don't have a use by date?

[Lord-Boofhead]

Either should they cost so much that new individuals can't get into the game or that it takes them months just to field a small 1500 point force.

You do know there are other points levels right?

it also takes most folks months to PAINT that many points too...

Back when I started all the games we played for the first 8 months to a year were 1,000 or less.

The answer to this is to encourage folks to play smaller games as well as bigger games. Their return to the Kill team format with a vengeance has proved they finally understand this now...

[Wolfshade]

Either should they cost so much that new individuals can't get into the game or that it takes them months just to field a small 1500 point force.

I could not afford to replace even one of my armies because doing so would run into the 4 figure range.

Oh each year that price keeps on going up.

Actually, this was an interesting point. In the shift from 2nd to 3rd everything halved in price, so you had to get twice as much stuff to play at the same points level. Cynics said that it was so that GW could sell more stuff, GW said that they were responding to how people were playing the game and adjusted the rules to fit.

Back in 2nd I didn't think anything of playing a 4,000pt game, especially with a normal tactical marine was at the 30pt range. Then into 3rd that dropped to 2,000pts same model count.

As for playing 1,500pts yes that is the recommended minimum size, but there is Kill Team, that is lower points, and most games I play are now at the 1,000pt level, you can get strange things happening at lower points.

Also, prices go up, that is to be expected unfortunately (hell I would love to only pay 50p/litre for my fuel rather than £1.39), costs have also increased now I am nto saying that the same profit/minature is in operation as no one knows that, especially with unknown costs involved in bringing a brand new concept from a spark of an idea to the shelves with suitably play tested rules.

I am not sure why you would want to replace an entire army, certainly you can do, but I for instance am not happy with the paint job on my miniautres so I am stripping them down to repaint. This way I modernise the look without it being terribly expensive and certainly I can replace old weapons with newer ones to make them look more modern.

[Mr Mystery]

Price is each man's own devil sadly.

To me, it's a tiny little thing, barely worth bothering about thanks to a combination of income, outgoings, personal circumstances and personal attitude. I'm in a fortunate place to have a cash intensive hobby.

Others? They may have kids. They might still be in school or other education. They may have a lower paying job. Some might just not find the same value in the models.

It's so very subjective I genuinely feel it's just not worth a great deal of discussion. I can afford it. Yay for me. But that hardly changes things for someone who can't afford it, and vice versa.

[Mr Mystery]

No they weren't.

Oh and no this is not the Golden Age of 40K.

That happen nearly 15-20 years ago and before GW trashed the game and decided that greed and screwing their customers was the way to go.

Back then models only had one save and most of the time they didn't even have that one.



Really? Because my Terminator Armoured Level 4 Inquisitor with Displacer Field very much begs to differ.... 3+ on 2D6 (modifiable) and a 3+ fixed save. That makes two.

2nd Edition was fun but the game itself was a bit of a mess. Tool your general up right and you could smash anything.

Did you know it was possible to field an Apothecary heavy army, and in doing so prevent your opponent from actually winning the game? You see, for single models worth less than 50 points, you didn't get any VPs. 25% of my army could be Apothecaries. Each one under the 50 point mark. I'd get a lot of not at all poor HQ types, and even if you killed them all, you wouldn't get any VPs out of them. At all. None. Nada. Nil.

Then you had the end of turn phase. Ever tried to do that with a Vortex Grenade, 15 Smoke Grenades and 20 Plasma Grenades on the board from my shooting phase? That phase took longer than the rest of my turn.

And as for 15-20...15 years ago...1998. 3rd Edition. 20 years ago, 1993 - Rogue Trader (which was even more labyrinthian in terms of rules and contradictory supplements than 2nd Ed). So that's a pretty wide and oddly shaped net of generalisation you've cast there.

As for BUCKET OF DICE. Which is quicker? Fixed roll to hit, then D6 plus your Strength to punch through armour, then roll for damage or 'roll to hit having applied the correct modifiers, including those for your speed and the speed of your target, then consult your AP pool on the individual weapons entry (remembering to double check it's not different in the wargear section and the summary). dig out the relevant dice. THEN roll on the Datafax to see where you've hit, THEN roll your combined pool, add it together, subtracting 1 from the total for every full 12" over the first 24" of distance twixt gunner and target to see if you penetrate. Argue for a good 5 minutes yet again about whether equaling the armour rating is penetrating it or not, resolve argument ideally without one side storming off (we were teenagers then), and roll on the datafax entry for the component hit, applying the damage, including any scattering, back staggering or flash back to the hull'.

Yeah. 6th Ed. Real bucket of dice game. Totally. 2nd Edition was an epihany of efficiency.

[Wolfshade]

Mystery do you remember the joys of multiple combat? What was it each subsequent striker had double the attack dice, and +1 S compared with the previous one, then working out the hit and all those critical strikes/fumbles/parrys then working out what weapons you were using and therefore what damage it had.

My greatest triumph a 30man Death Company waded into CC with 4 greater deamons and walked out the otherside bloodied but unbowed.

[Mr Mystery]

+1 Attack and +1 WS if I remember correctly. Unless it was an Eversor Assassin, where he got the benefit instead....

Then there was the card based psychic phase. In theory, really straight forward. Roll 1D6 for each psyker (minimum of 2D6), and dish out that many cards between the two players, starting with whoever's turn it was. Complication? Remembering to make sure to check your opponent hasn't stuffed Ultimate Force and Energy Drain up his sleever earlier in the game. Yep. Saw this many, many times.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not ragging on 2nd Edition, it was extremely good fun. But people need to pop off the rose tinted specs once in a while and remember just how bad it could get.

My greatest memory of it demonstrating it's highest and lowest point at one time? Single Blood Claw pops off a shot at a War Walker. Hits pilot. Eldar player whiffs his 2+ Fixed save. Pilot goes splat. War Walker then topples into another War Walker. And so on and so forth until that single Blood Claw's shot has taken out 12 War Walkers...... Really, really good fun for me, and amazing to watch. Not so much fun for the opposition.

[Wolfshade]

Ah Dark Millenium, the joys of those 700 large flamer templates each suitably different from the other plus the foot of Mork (or was it Gork) :)

[Mr Mystery]

Indeedy.

And the Cyclone Missile Launcher, with people unable to tell the difference between diameter, circumference and radius, leading to all sorts of home made template shenanigans....

[Wolfshade]

The whirlwind multilaucnher that could multilaunch. Wasn't one of the damage rolls leading to an uncontrolled firing of all remaining missiles?

[Mr Mystery]

Ah, that was the Cyclone again. Shoot the bearer. If he survives, there's a chance it would malfunction, resulting in the bearer detonating (messily), firing each remaining missile off in a randomised direction, one at a time, launching them all in a random direction, and I think that was it (been 15 years since I last used one, let alone had it go a bit Pete Tong on me).

[Wolfshade]

Ah and Thunderhammer's auto wound/pentrate, where tanks could explode and the crew surive and walk around. Cumbersome did not sufficiently encompass it.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. Still a good game, but 6th Edition has a better working ruleset.

Oh, and Storm Shields only applying if the opponent was in your front 90 degree arc. So, so many arguments. And we weren't even playing in a Tournament. Just me garage!

Turning up to a game only to find your opponet doesn't have Dark Millenium, and you've forgotten your Datafax cards....

[Lord-Boofhead]

As for playing 1,500pts yes that is the recommended minimum size, but there is Kill Team, that is lower points, and most games I play are now at the 1,000pt level, you can get strange things happening at lower points.

Yeah but all that only matters in tournament play. Who cares about weird stuff in friendly games?

And I'd rather have an 800 point game with all the weirdness in that than no game at all plus the smaller the game the less weird **** in both armies and the easier it is to teach the basics...

[Wolfshade]

Yeah but all that only matters in tournament play. Who cares about weird stuff in friendly games?

And I'd rather have an 800 point game with all the weirdness in that than no game at all plus the smaller the game the less weird **** in both armies and the easier it is to teach the basics...

Oh certainly, when teaching the game much smaller games work wonders, plus on a much smaller board helps as well.

[Lord-Boofhead]

So the argument that new players can't get into the Hobby because the MUST buy and paint a 1500 point force first is debunked then?

Its not GW driving away new players its the existing folks with that attitude who are doing it...

[Wolfshade]

I don't think that there is any evidence to suggest that GW are driving away players.

I think that for children/young adults, the price required to make the jump is signficant. Though with some of the price for xbone and ps4 games they are starting to align...

The starter box is a great way to build a core force (indeed the battle boxes used to) then you can expand over time.

I remember when I first got into the hobby, I would save my pocket money up and once a month go with what was left and buy what I wanted.

I think that there is an assumption that some points must be played, and it seems that there is a UK/US divide here Uk tends to be around 1500 mark and US around 2000 mark. But that is all local meta. This is almost permeated by the netlist.

There are other good things like escalation leagues which are small scale and the School Gaming Club outreach programme is quite good. The school league stuff are designed to be small scale so that one can play in a lunch hour.

Once you have an army, the hobby can remain fairly cheap as you build up a core collection and more often than not the core army remains the same, it is just new "splash" units.

[jonsgot]

Well 3 out of 3 of the people I have been gaming with since school appear to have stopped playing. I've had to find other people to game with. Non of my friends have rage quit like in the days of 3rd. They just don't want to play or spend. It was going fine till apocalypse came out.

I don't think the prices are too bad,until you look at what has happened to incomes. I still don't get gw's price model. Sticking 2% on everything and a bit more on the new items wouldn't upset anyone. These 10% every few years and £50 for the new kits, I don't see anyone buying fast; is just hokem.

[Lord-Boofhead]

I don't think the prices are too bad,until you look at what has happened to incomes.

This is only really an issue in the USA. Some day you will rejoin the rest of off us in the 1st World...




I still don't get gw's price model. Sticking 2% on everything and a bit more on the new items wouldn't upset anyone. These 10% every few years and £50 for the new kits, I don't see anyone buying fast; is just hokem.

They tried that and everyone squealed about the 'Annual price hikes' so the went back to one big one every 4 or 5 years. They can't win either way.

[Lord-Boofhead]

I don't think that there is any evidence to suggest that GW are driving away players.

I think that for children/young adults, the price required to make the jump is signficant. Though with some of the price for xbone and ps4 games they are starting to align...

The starter box is a great way to build a core force (indeed the battle boxes used to) then you can expand over time.

I remember when I first got into the hobby, I would save my pocket money up and once a month go with what was left and buy what I wanted.

I think that there is an assumption that some points must be played, and it seems that there is a UK/US divide here Uk tends to be around 1500 mark and US around 2000 mark. But that is all local meta. This is almost permeated by the netlist.

There are other good things like escalation leagues which are small scale and the School Gaming Club outreach programme is quite good. The school league stuff are designed to be small scale so that one can play in a lunch hour.

Once you have an army, the hobby can remain fairly cheap as you build up a core collection and more often than not the core army remains the same, it is just new "splash" units.

Yeah that's basically what I said, its not GW driving away new players but the guys who insist everygame be a 1750/1850 point (the Aussie meta) or what ever 'Tournament Practice' Games.

Power Gamers please stop blaming GW for your own actions...

[DarkLink]

This is only really an issue in the USA. Some day you will rejoin the rest of off us in the 1st World...


You realize that a lot of other first world nations were actually hit harder than the USA itself, right? If anyone needs some help, it would be Spain.

[Wolfshade]

Greece, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Portugal...

Though Ireland have just stepped out of bailout, and portugal are well on their way

[DarkLink]

Really, the USA was actually only in a recession for like 12 months. We just haven't been creating a lot of wage growth or new full time jobs, so really it's more of a case of getting better much more slowly than one might expect. Which, by the way, is why not everyone voted for Obama, for all you foreigners who think 'but dem repubikans is homophobes'.

That aside, gw itself is doing well, and while I've seen fluctuations in the levels of 40k, I see no reason to think it's getting any smaller overall. If anything, there are more major events for 40k than ever, at least on the west coast.

[Mr Mystery]

Growth is also linked to overall market saturation.

GW may not have created the market, but they must certainly utterly revolutionised it. And they've been top dog for a long old time. Downside to that, is that they are the ones driving market expansion. PP and that don't actively promote the wider hobby, as they sell exclusivley through third parties and online. PP themselves don't exactly recruit new comers. New games to their system yes, but Joe Spod into Capt Nerd they do not.

For instance, and using random round figures for sake of ease of explanation....GW report say, a 2% growth in individual gamers. PP report a 20% growth in individual gamers, and Random Comapny X report a 60% growth in individual gamers. Ostensibly, looks like GW are doing poorly, bordering on actively losing active gamer numbers.

But..... Those growth figures are based on their existing number of gamers. So if GW had 1,000,000 gamers, a 2% increase is actually 20,000 new customers. PP had 50,000 gamers, a 20% increase is 10,000 new gamers. And Random Company X had 1,000, that's only 600 new gamers.

Remember folks, numbers out of thin air, for demonstration reasons only.

[Popsical]

How dare you take numbers from thin air!!!
Next you'll be using randomly determined numbers from a six sided die to play a bloody game with!!!
MM you cheeky chap you.