Dr Denzarklove, or, how I learned to stop worrying and love the (Escalation) Bomb...

[Denzark]

I've got to confess, I'm not worried in the slightest piece about Escalation. I thought it may amuse/distract/enlighten people to know why.

1. Firstly, The underpinning basis for what should (yes I said should not does) is the points system. I have posited before that the points system is like latin for 19th century doctors - it is the system which gives common ground the world over; 1500pts of 1 army should equate to 1500pts of another army. That being the case, a player must have faith in the points system. If you don't, then you must surely think you will never have a game that is fair ever. And why would you play like that? Unless you and your opponent take identical armies. I know in reality various forces represent better economies of scale than others, but unless you have a basic faith in the points system, you must therefore acknowledge you will play handicapped at some time.

2. Next, if you have faith in the points system as described above, then you would see that the points for SH units are high. These represent a significant chunk of your force - which can always get whacked by a lucky single shot. If you think the points are roughly balanced, that includes that the inclusion of a SH is a fair chunk of points. So you have a force with 8+ scoring units (combat squads) - you ignore the SH, kill the 2 minimum squads of Dire Avengers which is all the opponent can afford after the big boy, and win the game on the objective you placed solidly behind LoS blocking terrain. On the subject of points there always seems to be the UK/US split - 1500/1750+. Across the Atlantic everything is supersized and all that. At 1500 the ability to push in a SH is heavily limited.

3. Another point is an interesting post which can be found on the Warhammer World Facebook Page, where a player asks if the Escalation and Stronghold rules will be allowed in the GW flagship tournament, Throne of Skulls. The answer was that Escalation was viewed as an expansion similar to Spearhead, City Fight or Planet fall, and would not be included in their Tourney. Now, this was caveated with the fact that the WW boys had not sent the books at that time. But a more relevant point perhaps, is that the TO of any given event is well within their rights to include or exclude anything from within the rules. I personally dislike removal of rules from within the BRB - I want to play 'standard' 40K but I can vote with my feet if I don't like.

4. The last point links to the above. Free will. If you don't want to play against SH, then don't. Pick ups, friendly's, pre-arranged in your man-cave - just don't take part if you don't like. No-one can force you to and, as the rule is not within the BRB I think you have the option to not go with it. I can't see why people think escalation must always be allowed if you don't want to. I've played a game with no units with AV allowed. I'm sure I'll play games with no SH to be allowed.


So quite simply, do I think the sky is falling? Na. A 20-man necron blob will still glance these big buggers to death whilst 6 croissants kill the 2-minimum kitted troop squads that are all the player could afford after buying big-boy. MCs are still harder for me to kill without poisoned weapons, than a box of metal that will go boom with lucky dice.

TL,DR: Chill Winston its nearly Chrimbo.

[Wolfshade]

What is a SH?

[Denzark]

Super Heavy!

[White Tiger88]

Super Heavy!

What about the Harridan....... >_@

[Wolfshade]

Durr!

I so silly.

But yesh! In essence I agree with everything. I think the most important is #4. You don't have to play it, in the same way you don't have to play Apoc, Cities of Death etc. Indeed it goes far enough, one of my mate has no anti-flyer so we have a gentleman's agreement not to include them until he has his own AA of whatever flavour.

[Anggul]

Exactly. When was the last time you say someone rock up to a random pick-up game and start unpacking a Planetstrike army, then get confused when the other player questions him? I'd wager the majority of people would say never, unless there was a serious breakdown in communication. It's a really cool narrative tool to bring campaigns gradually from 'standard' 40k to full-blown apocalypse. Treat it as such. It's an extension of the rulebook only as much as Cities of Death and Planetstrike, play it for fun when you both want to, that's the point.

[Katharon]

I just feel a bit cheated that the Mecharius and Malcador tanks from FW didn't get any love in the Escalation supplement. They're demi-SH, so I think that they'd be even more appropriate for Escalation than actual SH in some cases! ;)

[SaveModifier]

As I am powered by nerd tears, this week has been very satisfying for me.

[Mr Mystery]

SaveModifier, for that comment, there is a seat reserved for you in The Oubliette! :D

Escalation is a bit of a laugh and a chortle. Nothing more. Much like anything not in your Codex, you should really be arranging this with your opponent.

Pre-warned, I can field an army which can not only potentially take down a Lord of War, but also mitigate it's firepower somewhat (MSU for instance).

But yeah. Any book which introduces game rules (not just new units) which do not exist in the BRB is inherently optional, on account your opponent may never have seen them. This does not apply to Codecies of course, as the most you really need to read about a new unit ability is a single paragraph. But to SH Bomb your opponent? That's several pages right there for them to not only read, but digest. Which simply isn't on.

[Katharon]

I can't wait to use Puppet Master on a Titan. 'Nuff said.

[Mr Mystery]

Does that even work?

Not that familiar with the new Super Heavy rules, but previously mind control stuff didn't work on the really big things!

[Katharon]

Does that even work?

Not that familiar with the new Super Heavy rules, but previously mind control stuff didn't work on the really big things!

Puppet Master says: "Puppet Master is a focussed witchfire power with a range of 24". The target immediately makes a shooting attack as if it was one of your models (this cannot target his own unit). After resolving the attack, the target shakes free of the Psyker's control and immediately reverts to the owning player's control."

Ergo, I can use that on a Revenant Titan. 4 D-weapon pie plates against your own army is going to make you think twice about fielding one.

[Mr Mystery]

In theory, yes. But do check the Super Heavy rules for Caveats.

One I do know of is that sadly, my Scarabs can't nomnomnom a SH into the dirt, as Entropic Strikes doesn't work on SH.

[Katharon]

Only special rule that denies an ability is the one to nomnomnom their armor. There is nothing that says you can't use the Telepathy Psykic power of Puppet Master on one.

[Mr Mystery]

I'll need to check that when I get home tonight. Like I said, I'm not that up on them at the moment.

Certainly they were previously immune to non direct damage psychics.

[Katharon]

I'll need to check that when I get home tonight. Like I said, I'm not that up on them at the moment.

Certainly they were previously immune to non direct damage psychics.

Maybe that is just an Apocalypse rule? Since this is regular 40K, anything can happen to them. Would certainly make it that much more fair to field LoW units in an Escalated 40K game.

[Denzark]

Kath - I agree it would be yet more mitigation - but can't see on the face of it why the whole Strength D, split fire, squillion HP would go for vanilla but not their immunity to psychics (or resistance - have not seen the new apoc book but recall in the old they couldn't be affected.

[Mr Mystery]

Maybe that is just an Apocalypse rule? Since this is regular 40K, anything can happen to them. Would certainly make it that much more fair to field LoW units in an Escalated 40K game.

From what I can gather without actually having read the book, the SH and GC rules are identical to those in Apocalypse, but with added dooberries and dingdongs to enable you to field a currently limited selection in Escalation 40k (because as soon as you Escalate*, it's not regular 40k anymore!)

*DoyouseewhatIdidthere?

[Katharon]

From what I can gather without actually having read the book, the SH and GC rules are identical to those in Apocalypse, but with added dooberries and dingdongs to enable you to field a currently limited selection in Escalation 40k (because as soon as you Escalate*, it's not regular 40k anymore!)

*DoyouseewhatIdidthere?

Notice how I said "Escalated 40k game"? ;)

Every rule regarding SH, GC, and SWs are in the Escalation book. After reading through their rules three times now to triple check, there is nothing that says I cannot use Puppet Master against them.

[Mr Mystery]

Ah fair enough!

Will read me Apocaylpse tonight, probably as some light bedtime reading.

[D6Damager]

What about the Harridan....... >_@

Ground it with anything...and then it dies to the same weapons or assault as a normal FMC or MC would.

[Wolfshade]

*DoyouseewhatIdidthere?
I see all...

.. and I approve

puns for the Pun God.

[Regnir]

Indeed.

Old apocalypse had a rule that stated: "Only psychic powers with a Strength characteristic could affect Super Heavy Vehicles/Gargantuan Creatures". As near as I can tell, new Apocalypse(and Escalation, by extension) has no such rule.

[DarkLink]

Super heavies aren't the problem, Str D is.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

me i honestly do not worry about it one way or another its a game. its meant to be fun and honestly people cry about STR D but seriously there are already enough broken units in the game. so if your going to start crying about every broken unit in this edition then perhaps you need to switch to another game system. this has always been 40k... each new book each new edition. each and every new broken combination until the next shiny new one comes along. it happens me i hate 2+ re rollable bs but its a part of the game i can either rage quit or i can find ways to mitigate their damage and eliminate them.

Super heavies can be taken out took remember those sternguard? bring them in drop in melta the suckers to death and vola you have just killed 500-900 points of super heavies and now have rendered your opponent neutered.

[Houghten]

a player must have faith in the points system. If you don't, then you must surely think you will never have a game that is fair ever. And why would you play like that?

Well, how else might I play?

[Denzark]

Well you might play thinking you're a martyr, chuntering about how your army never wins because it is too expensive in points etc. Again, if this is your viewpoint and you think there is a genuine imbalance to the position where you will never win, why would you bother?

[SaveModifier]

Super heavies aren't the problem, Str D is.

Actually, the problem is tournament players getting their knickers in a twist (panties in a bunch) about things before they've even tried it.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. Mostly because it upsets their precious 'meta', meaning that, you know, they might not be able to simply netlist anymore. Which clearly is not the point of the game.

[DarkLink]

It's not like str d is new to the game. In fact, it's not even new to regular games. Anyone remember spearhead? Trust me, this is not an uneducated choice. But, yes, keep bashing people who like a different aspect of the game from you. Also, Mr. Mystery, about the only thing I, and all the tournament players I'm actually friends with, care about the meta for is that anyone should be able to show up with just about any army and not get steamrolled at a tournament. You might have some preconceived notions about how we're all some sort of WAAC douches, but if that's going to be your attitude, then I know who I'd rather hang out with.

[Houghten]

Well you might play thinking you're a martyr, chuntering about how your army never wins because it is too expensive in points etc. Again, if this is your viewpoint and you think there is a genuine imbalance to the position where you will never win, why would you bother?

Because playing an unbalanced game is still better than not gaming at all.

Also, please note that "I have no faith in the points system" doesn't necessarily mean I think I'm on the losing end. I know, for example, that at 500 points (common for playing against new starters, at least in my area) the game is horribly unbalanced in my favour (Ork player).

[deinol]

I'll certainly treat Escalation like Spearhead. An optional set of rules we might play sometime. And if we do choose to play an Escalated game, I see no real reason to limit the options to what is in the Escalation book. I mean, if someone has some cool super tank from a forgeworld book, it might as well see some table time every once in a while.

I do think a load of strength D shots probably wipes the table too fast for smaller point games. Doesn't matter if you kill their few scoring units if the D pie plate table you.

Of course, my chapter master (Raptors) can do D3+1 hits to a single target before the game begins, that's like a free VP. ;)

[DarkLink]

Frontline just put up the results of their poll for what the plan is for the Las Vegas Open. Much more restrained than the Feast of Blades, but still conservative.

I can see a lot of stuff working its way into 40k over time, but I'm certainly glad I won't be facing any Str D with my Draigowing in Land Raiders.

[SaveModifier]

The poll missed out the most important questions "Have you used or played against the options you're angry about?"

[Wolfshade]

The poll missed out the most important questions "Have you used or played against the options you're angry about?"
+1

That made me chuckle.

[Eldar_Atog]

The poll missed out the most important questions "Have you used or played against the options you're angry about?"

If playing against a certain option is going to make me angry, why would I want to play against it?

[DarkLink]

Also, while the respondents may more may not have, Reece and the Frontline crew did, in fact, try them out. Because, despite your claims, they are, in fact, pretty rational guys who are a ton of fun to play with, and they know the game very well. And since the purpose of their event is to provide games the attendees want to play, he asked them for their preferences, and stuck with what they wanted.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm happy with playing with or against super heavies in normal games, as long as D Weapons aren't around. Just far too strong for 'regular' games I think. Thankfully, no one in my store owns a Revenant Titan :cool:

[interrogator_chaplain]

I honestly think if D-Weapons are played, they allow Invulnerable saves but they're made at a -2 modifier with no re-rolls. I would be totally fine with that.

[Denzark]

Because playing an unbalanced game is still better than not gaming at all.

Also, please note that "I have no faith in the points system" doesn't necessarily mean I think I'm on the losing end. I know, for example, that at 500 points (common for playing against new starters, at least in my area) the game is horribly unbalanced in my favour (Ork player).

That would be sad - if all you could get is unbalanced I mean. Unless you are a masochist, at some point continuously doing anyhting in life at a disadvantage, would pale - YMMV admittedly. Interesting thought about your advantage at 500 points. I remember some GW commentary in the design notes in the back of the 3rd ed BRB (I think that was where it was anyhoo.), was that the game was considered balanced/aimed at 1500pts. I will try and find the quote later. But sort of acknowledges what you put - at some scales some forces literllay can bring too much to a table that other forces can't deal with.

[White Tiger88]

That would be sad - if all you could get is unbalanced I mean. Unless you are a masochist, at some point continuously doing anyhting in life at a disadvantage, would pale - YMMV admittedly. Interesting thought about your advantage at 500 points. I remember some GW commentary in the design notes in the back of the 3rd ed BRB (I think that was where it was anyhoo.), was that the game was considered balanced/aimed at 1500pts. I will try and find the quote later. But sort of acknowledges what you put - at some scales some forces literllay can bring too much to a table that other forces can't deal with.

Who made you a Doctor????? *cough* i mean i just got my Escalation book a few days ago and after looking at it....not Impressed the super heavies are worthless (other then the Nid one) against anything that flys, so my demons will rip apart 99% of the book!

[SaveModifier]

If playing against a certain option is going to make me angry, why would I want to play against it?

How do you know its going to make you angry until you try it?

Its a few hours of your life and there is still fun to be had pitting your force against a Super Heavy, even if they get wiped out, if they take the Super Heavy with them, they've died with glory!

Its a game, its fun, claiming things that add more options for people is "ruining" it and that "casuals" are wrong for enjoying the game no matter what is insulting. It's a casual game, its never pretended to be otherwise, if you want to play competitively then good luck to you, but you don't have to complain and look down at people accepting the game in the spirit it is intended

[DarkLink]

Str D is not new to the game. It's literally been around for years. I don't know why you seem to think it's so brand new that no one knows how it will affect anything.

[SaveModifier]

Str D is not new to the game. It's literally been around for years. I don't know why you seem to think it's so brand new that no one knows how it will affect anything.

I never know if you're being deliberately obtuse +++CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION+++?

MOD: Play nice...

[Eldar_Atog]

How do you know its going to make you angry until you try it?

Its a few hours of your life and there is still fun to be had pitting your force against a Super Heavy, even if they get wiped out, if they take the Super Heavy with them, they've died with glory!

Its a game, its fun, claiming things that add more options for people is "ruining" it and that "casuals" are wrong for enjoying the game no matter what is insulting. It's a casual game, its never pretended to be otherwise, if you want to play competitively then good luck to you, but you don't have to complain and look down at people accepting the game in the spirit it is intended

Because I know how I respond to things. I hate seeing 2 people playing a game and one player has the other over a barrel before the match even begins. I won't take a flyer without knowing my opponent has an answer for it. Truthfully, I tell people in advance that I am taking a flyer so that they can tweak their lists.

Also, I am a 'casual' player that hates competitive play. I've been playing for quite awhile and I have had to deal with the highs and lows of codex creep since third edition. I see no fun in one player beating another player to a pulp just because one army has access to flyers and the other doesn't.

Did GW add super heavies to every single army yet? Can a Sisters army take a super heavy without taking an ally? Hell, all the armies don't even have flyers yet. You see, I don't mind more options being added but those options have to be available to every army. What is insulting to me is players screaming "It's only a game" while they build min maxed lists to pound other players that don't have access to the same options.

[Infinite Freedom]

Who made you a Doctor????? *cough* i mean i just got my Escalation book a few days ago and after looking at it....not Impressed the super heavies are worthless (other then the Nid one) against anything that flys, so my demons will rip apart 99% of the book!
My Stormlord would disagree.

[DarkLink]

I never know if you're being deliberately obtuse or you're just stupid, so which is it?

Disagreeing with you does not qualify as stupid. Your argument consists entirely of the claim that we don't know how Str D will affect the game. But when I point out that, yes, in fact, we can fairly accuratey predict it because Str D is far from a new element even outside of Apocalypse, instead of addressing the counterpoint and expanding on your argument you instead try to handwave it by insulting me. Go read the forum rules on appropriate behavior.

[Asuryan]

It's an extension of the rulebook only as much as Cities of Death and Planetstrike, play it for fun when you both want to, that's the point.


Any book which introduces game rules (not just new units) which do not exist in the BRB is inherently optional, on account your opponent may never have seen them. This does not apply to Codecies of course, as the most you really need to read about a new unit ability is a single paragraph. But to SH Bomb your opponent? That's several pages right there for them to not only read, but digest. Which simply isn't on.

So do you guys feel the same way for stronghold assault?

Stronghold updates a few rules and added some extra upgrades to the fortifications in the BRB, Lets say i don't tell you before hand that i took the upgrade that lets my helldrake start in hover mode on the skyshield pad. Would you quit because you didn't know we were playing Stronghold assault? Probably not.

But what if instead my fortifications is the Aquila Stronghold with a Macro cannon? Since most people might be OK with the skysheild, but not OK with the 2 large Blasts at str D ap 1, Do you want to cherry pick what can and can't be taken out of the Stronghold book, or to Make sure with you opponent before trying to use any of the rules from this book?

[deinol]

So do you guys feel the same way for stronghold assault?

Stronghold updates a few rules and added some extra upgrades to the fortifications in the BRB, Lets say i don't tell you before hand that i took the upgrade that lets my helldrake start in hover mode on the skyshield pad. Would you quit because you didn't know we were playing Stronghold assault? Probably not.

But what if instead my fortifications is the Aquila Stronghold with a Macro cannon? Since most people might be OK with the skysheild, but not OK with the 2 large Blasts at str D ap 1, Do you want to cherry pick what can and can't be taken out of the Stronghold book, or to Make sure with you opponent before trying to use any of the rules from this book?

I would have no problem saying yes to the Skyshield and no to the Strength D cannon. But either way its part of the discussion with my opponent before the game about how/what we want to be playing. Just as I'd be asking permission to use the Forge World tactics for my Raptors (Marine Chapter). Actually, I'd be ok with the mega cannon if my opponent agreed to play it as Strength 10 ignores cover, which seems to be the most reasonable "fix" to strength D I've seen for non-Apocalypse 40k games.

As it is, the siege missions from Stronghold Assault require a conversation before list building, since it makes changes to the Force Org chart if you play them.

[Asuryan]

so as i said you want to cherry pick what can be taken and what can't, and yes the siege missions need discussion, but why can't i use any of the rules in a normal game? Like if i wanted to use the firestorm redoubt, but use the very wide fire points, or take any of the WoM pieces as my fortification? Would i have to ask my opponent if they are fine with it?

[DarkLink]

Formations and Superheavies really aren't that big of a deal. Str D is extremely problematic, but for as durable as most Superheavies are, they're equally expensive. Look at the Necron gargantuan creature. It's a Wraithknight with T9 and a bunch of guns, basically. Dark Eldar will eat it alive. But you can buy like three Wraithknights for the price of that thing if it's fully upgrades. For everyone else, sure, it's tough to kill, but far from impossible considering you can afford to shoot your entire army at it. But when that thing throws out a Str D Hellstorm blast, a second high AP Hellstorm blast, plus each turn it can teleport 18" in any direction and everything it passes over takes a Str D hit, that is brutal. Unless you're DE or Space Marines with a bunch of Sternguard in a Drop Pod, you're kinda screwed, because it will kill you before you can kill it. Take away the Str D and it's a much more even fight.

Stronghold assault isn't a problem, but it doesn't work well for tournaments because it requires you to play around with the terrain a lot. The logistics are simply impractical. TOs don't want their expensive terrain taken aside and placed... where, on the floor in the aisles? It's not like there's room on the table. Plus tournament games tend to be under a fairly strict time limit anyways, simply because 6th ed takes so long to play. Adding ten or fifteen minutes to each game setting up formations just won't work.

[Asuryan]

And I understand for tournaments not using it but for casual games, and as i was reading over my stronghold assault, found out that in the book it says that they are optional rules, that are recommended to be incorporated but you should ask your opponent if its ok to use the updated rules. this is what i get for posting before reading/thinking. But as i said in my posts there isn't much in this book that other players wouldn't be ok with, except the str D.

[Houghten]

Str D is not new to the game. It's literally been around for years.

The "ignores invulnerable saves" thing is recent, though.

[daboarder]

Denzark I can't help but wonder if you understand the expression in the title and what it means. Given the point your trying to get across. I mean Dr Stranglove is designed as a satirical yet cautionary tale of what was possible during the cold war. not an argument for how ridiculous it would be to worry about nuclear war.

That aside I will not be playing with escalation, not only is it ridiculously unbalanced in its choice of super heavies (a titan? WTF!) But Str D has no place being in a regular weekly game. Its not fun to be on the receiving end of and as a two player game it should not exist.

[Katharon]

Here's why we can't have nice things. (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?38429-The-Ridiculous-List-To-Show-That-Escalation-Should-Be-An-Expansion&p=375450#post375450)

[DarkLink]

The "ignores invulnerable saves" thing is recent, though.

Yes. Allow me to put it this way.

Str D has been around for years, and it's always been readily apparent to anyone with half a brain that it was massively overpowered.

Then GW decided to make it even better. Ergo, still massively overpowered.

[Popsical]

As said earlier in the thread stD should just be made st10 ap1 ordnance ignores cover.
Maybe GW will faq this.
So whos interested to see the next ToS armies?

As an aside. How the smeg do the anti FW berks react to this developement?
"No you cant have a squad of death korp guardsmen with lasguns!"
"But i can use my lord of skulls!"
Or will it be "ban everything but codex units!"?

Im sure their warped logic will worm its way into a laberynthine puzzle of justification that would baffle tzeentch itself.