People seem upset about chaos daemons why is this?

[Xaric]

I have been searching around the forums and found people dislike the new codex (mostly Tzeentch) on its new rules mostly because of the chaotic nature of it with lists trying to organize chaos first of all what does chaos mean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos

so from what I can assume people making order from chaos removes the reason of chaos thus becoming order now that is over lets get to the main reason of this thread

I have done research on thinking outside the box and discovered some units can be used in another way that would baffle your foes but still is viable lets take a look at some examples of this via the gifts and loca.

Gifts are random as hell that is understandable but people need to focus on the 0 roll aka the weapon if you dislike the role but also take into account the benefits the rolls can have to do this you look at how the weapon can benefit you say Alluress of Slaanesh (upgrade of a daemonette) Greater gift 0 will make this model into a range model with the lash of despair and herald using mastery is a powerful combo but also rolling on the gift table giving it some crazy buffs making it worthy of the greatest gift. This is not making order of chaos but accepting the random factor and focusing on what would benefit it instead of ignoring it due to the nature of gifts I hear people advising people not to take gifts.

Locas there are people see this as this buff and advice people not to pick the others this is not how they intended the use the loca it is to specialize your units lets use Tzeentch units for the example.

Locas of Transmogrification people has advised against this they are sadly mistaken on how strong this is with the changeling who comes with this and a unit of 20 pink horrors is a great way to baffle your enemy or make them feel that they need to kill them before they reach CC you must take into account horrors get the reliable rerolls of 1 also the 5+ invulnerable save. If they die in CC possible chance of d3 blue horrors people underestimate them. but more of them die more chance to roll 6 and being a cheap model to start with being able to kill a fast attack and elites I have tried this and it is deadly someone even said I was cheating because he did not understand the blue horror rule.

Locas of Change this is about versatile horrors with a herald say your inside cover and the enemy will be in charge range if you move out of that cover and you roll a 6 16 horrors with strength 6 attacks also with their cast as they go into the shooting phase then charge with strength 6 attack also if they die spawn blue horrors it can ruin someones day in 1 turn.

Locas of Conjuration this is just more power to the cast that's all

So for you Tzeentch mono god army's horrors can be more deadly than they seem also do not forget if you take a Iridecent horror shot with them will give you persiction shots due to they are Characters most people forget this I had also forgotten this too till I looked into Character role and research on this rule in the big rule book and yes its viable if you have 16 horrors and roll high on flickering fire most likely you can kill their leader of the unit if you roll 6s that's if they don't look out sir passes all the time :D

Now lets take a look at deep striking this varies but take it into consideration when deep striking take an Instrument of chaos with an icon the reason for this and people keep saying it's not allowed but fail to give me the rules where it says I can't do this deep strike with this unit it can piggy back the next unit in without rolling and with the icon the piggy back unit comes in without scattering no rule said it can't do this unless someone tells me where. Taking Tzeentch again as an example you deep strike horrors in followed with screamers screamers then can use the full speed over enemy units it will benefit from slashing attack rule they have great for hurting or take flamers in great way to position them without them getting focused on the way up on the field.

ok next the special icons these are once used only but they are very strongly try to incorporate them if you can.

Banner of blood well we know blood letters get turned to Swiss cheese but lets take a closer look at this one you have a skull cannon backing you up enemy is hiding in a building use this banner normal charge and 6+d6 on a charge with no initiative penalty due to dreadskull in combat a deadly combo indeed.

Blasted Standard this is stronger than people think not only does it empower spells it also gives you overwatch for your pink horrors

Plague Banner got plaguebearers with FnP as the loca? then use this to double up the loca power for one assult

Rapturous Standard is a great way if you are against enemies that are higher initiative than you

As you can see this is what most things people hate about chaos daemons and the reason people have resulted in selling or locking them away unlike them I don't just quit I look for ways to improve the army I have chosen win or loss I love my daemons and will play them even if they are said to be unwinnable. This is just a number of things I know many more but it is already a wall of text so if you have any questions that I did not cover feel free to ask about them also keep flaming to a low if you dislike something say it in a professional manner with the reason why it is bad I will report anyone saying stuff like "It Sucks and you are wrong" with no constructive feedback of the reason why you feel that way about it lets be mature ok.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm too tired to respond to this post in full, but I must say, you do understand that Chaos Daemons are actually widely considered one of the top competitive armies in 40K right now? Many people - myself not included, for the most part - take issue with the codex because of its' random nature and somewhat erratic internal balance, not because of how it does competitively. Heck, Chaos Daemons are a regular in the top 10 of pretty much every tournament. They can put out some of the scariest lists you could possibly imagine. Any critic who has said they aren't competitive is kidding themselves.

[Popsical]

People get upset about pretty much everything to do with 40k these days. The lists of reasons is long, although 50% is because they've lost games because of something.
Oddly GW sales are still flying and showing no sign of recession, so it must be mainly hot air.
Until recently I had beefs with a few issues in 40k too, in the last month ive become of the opinion of why should I let any of it bother me?
Im happier because with 40k now I just go with the flow.
Demons are busted, chaos maureens are not chaos legions, vendettas are too cheap, hellducks are OP etc, etc, etc. All these have produced avalanches of hate, and for what effect? None.

[Chumbalaya]

So you argue that Chaos should be totally random and out of your control.

Then you suggest folks play CD using only option 0 and everything you can control.

K

[Sly]

People get upset about pretty much everything to do with 40k these days. The lists of reasons is long, although 50% is because they've lost games because of something.

Pretty much.

[Mr Mystery]

Regular tournament placing means absolutely nothing without knowing how many examples of that army were represented.

For instance..... If 50% of entrants fielded a given army, or indeed list, then one would reasonably expect them to show well, including in the 'top placing'. If however this representation barely bothered the top ten, you'd have an entirely different conclusion drawn.

Which is why I ignore the perceived meta utterly. It's inherently self fulfilling. People will field a given list because apparently it roxxorz their boxxorz. Said list becomes common. When fielded by a competent player, it does as well as can be expected. Gains more notoriety. Players adopt it. Opponents feel game against is futile, affecting their decision making with a defeatist bent.

End result, self fulfilling fools errand.

[SaveModifier]

Ignore anything you read about 40K on the internet and just enjoy your hobby.

Except for this, don't ignore this.

[Houghten]

People will field a given list because apparently it roxxorz their boxxorz.I suppose you could proxy Boxors as Knights...

[Mr Mystery]

Tsk. Silly bugger.

Me, I've got a horde of Daemons awaiting the paintbrush. Have done since they came out. Sum total pained to date......a single Bloodletter. The other week. Experimenting with BFTBG.

[Learn2Eel]

Regular tournament placing means absolutely nothing without knowing how many examples of that army were represented.

For instance..... If 50% of entrants fielded a given army, or indeed list, then one would reasonably expect them to show well, including in the 'top placing'. If however this representation barely bothered the top ten, you'd have an entirely different conclusion drawn.

Which is why I ignore the perceived meta utterly. It's inherently self fulfilling. People will field a given list because apparently it roxxorz their boxxorz. Said list becomes common. When fielded by a competent player, it does as well as can be expected. Gains more notoriety. Players adopt it. Opponents feel game against is futile, affecting their decision making with a defeatist bent.

End result, self fulfilling fools errand.

Daemons aren't *that* common, not in the same vein as Tau/Eldar/Chaos Marines/etc at tournaments, so it makes their efforts - and those of high-placing Tyranid armies - more impressive.

[Baneblade]

People do not like randomness in their dice games...

[DarkLink]

If I wanted to have literally every single aspect of my game decided exclusively by random dice rolls rather than any mediocum of skill on my part, I would play craps. Or Daemons. Whichever.

[DaveTycho]

What most people seem to ignore about daemons is that most of the randomness can be minimalised! All the "random" gifts- are OPTIONAL. And if you don't like the result, you can always opt out for the weapon. In fact, I feel that the ether blade and greater ether blade are some of most cost effective weapons out there. 10 pts for a master-crafted AP2 weapon, or 20pts for the same thing plus +1S is great particularly for close combat daemons. And remember you can have two of these or combine them with other Specialist Weapons for +1A.

Unlike the previous codex, you can choose what, if any, units can deep strike. You have icons reducing the risk of scattering too. The warp storm table is only used if the daemons are the primary detachment. And warlord traits can also be fixed with special characters. If used right, a daemon army can actually be LESS random than a chaos marine army, which I feel is a shame as pre 6th ed this was the reverse.

[Ursa]

If u think chaos Desmond are random try playing 1st and 2nd edition Orks.look them up. Entire books devoted to randomness. Quit your hitching and play the game or sell your minis and get out.

[Houghten]

chaos Desmond

Note to self: do not browse forum whilst drinking.

[Demonus]

what people dislike about CD:

1. Fateweaver
2. Grimoire
3. Random Chart of Random things happening. Especially when combined with ability to reroll on said chart. Losing my Psyker with no save randomly AND giving you a free hq at the same time for no reason is just dumb. Like, Riptide dumb.

[Xaric]

Thank you for all your feedback i did not know about the top 10 because i could care little about the meta but most of the people i know swapped army when the new codex came out. As for Demonus the random chart has as much luck ruining a daemon army over as it has ruining your army over maybe much more for daemons lets give you this example 2 and 11 number for one of my main guys even the warlord being wiped out due to a bad roll wile it could be a psyker but if you choose one that was not your Warlord you wont ever loose yours also you need to take in chance wise that most times people roll on a 7 due to 2 dice 7 is the centre point of the dice compared to 11 and 12

[Learn2Eel]

Thank you for all your feedback i did not know about the top 10 because i could care little about the meta but most of the people i know swapped army when the new codex came out. As for Demonus the random chart has as much luck ruining a daemon army over as it has ruining your army over maybe much more for daemons lets give you this example 2 and 11 number for one of my main guys even the warlord being wiped out due to a bad roll wile it could be a psyker but if you choose one that was not your Warlord you wont ever loose yours also you need to take in chance wise that most times people roll on a 7 due to 2 dice 7 is the centre point of the dice compared to 11 and 12

Actually, the Warp Storm Table is more likely to ruin your opponents' army than the Daemon players'. Why? Three results are harmful for Daemons, and four results are potentially harmful for Daemons based on army composition, whereas seven results are *always* bad for the opponent. Unless you are running a mono-god list, the four 'Chaos God strikes down' results affect far more enemy units than they do friendly units, and even then, that means there are three less results potentially hurting the Daemon player.

That's before mentioning Fateweaver, one of the best HQs in the game who allows you to re-roll the Warp Storm Table result, or the natural defences Daemons get against it (Musicians, Champions) whereas opponents get no such defence.

[Mr Mystery]

It's no different to Marker Lights, ATSKNF or any of the myriad racial special rules in that respect, as they only benefit their army.

Except it's pretty random. Fateweaver can help, but he's easily taken care of courtesy of a little dakka to the face.

[Learn2Eel]

It's no different to Marker Lights, ATSKNF or any of the myriad racial special rules in that respect, as they only benefit their army.

Except it's pretty random. Fateweaver can help, but he's easily taken care of courtesy of a little dakka to the face.

If you don't have a lot of Skyfire, he's ridiculously hard to kill actually. With his re-roll each turn he only ever fails 1 grounding test from 4. And even then, depending on what powers he gets, he's at the very least T5 W5 4+ invulnerable save. That's before even considering silly stuff like putting the Grimoire on him to give him a 2+ invulnerable save with re-rolls of 1s.

He's obviously not infallible though, as today proved :D

[Mr Mystery]

Didn't think he can even take the Grimoire.

I don't field much Tzeentch in my Daemon army, so I'm not that up on them, but Grimoire is obtained through the Rewards, and I was under the impression SC's had set ones?

Unless you mean someone targetting him with the Grimoire. Which I think on reflection is indeed what you meant?

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah that's what I meant lol.

[DarkLink]

In practice, it's nearly impossible to kill any given Daemon unit that the Daemons player wants to keep alive. Like Fateweaver.

[Xaric]

Actually, the Warp Storm Table is more likely to ruin your opponents' army than the Daemon players'. Why? Three results are harmful for Daemons, and four results are potentially harmful for Daemons based on army composition, whereas seven results are *always* bad for the opponent. Unless you are running a mono-god list, the four 'Chaos God strikes down' results affect far more enemy units than they do friendly units, and even then, that means there are three less results potentially hurting the Daemon player.

That's before mentioning Fateweaver, one of the best HQs in the game who allows you to re-roll the Warp Storm Table result, or the natural defences Daemons get against it (Musicians, Champions) whereas opponents get no such defence.

So you want a thing that is in the daemons codex to not be a benefit at all but be a 50/50 because its more fair to the daemon player? The reason for the warp storm is something that makes the army difference from another army did you notices that in all codex stuff will more likely benefit a players army over its enemy for a reason for chaos daemons we are invading from the warp that means powers of the warp are following said daemons thus the gods would have influence in the battle you might want to read the story telling part of the warp storm from time to time and understand why the storm is there.

About the rolls 4 of the rolls needs one 6 on a d6 to come into effect also most of them can scatter too 3 of the rolls can destroy the hole daemon army for example yay our main save is moved to a +6 invariable save that means were rolling on 6s to save (you re-roll a 1 as tzeentch) everyone of our units unless its a daemon with the warpforged armor and rolls that hurt your army one that most army don't have units that can be possessed or don't use them 1 roll that gives us a 1+ invulnerable save possibly the best in my opinion and one that can spawn mobs in but if you roll bad can spawn a low amount and remember these don't have upgrades to them also if your playing purge the alien can give the enemy a free points that or they could fail deep strike.

Why are you not taking any unit with skyfire? Take a defense line its under 100pts gives you skyfire and intercept put somebody with high BS and you can kill fateweaver in 1 turn on most rolls he's not the best HQ there all the best depending on there roll wish people would stop following the meta and think one unit is more viable then others if you think this way as a general expect to loose more then 50% of your games your army needs to adapt and work around the HQ you have.

[Learn2Eel]

So you want a thing that is in the daemons codex to not be a benefit at all but be a 50/50 because its more fair to the daemon player? The reason for the warp storm is something that makes the army difference from another army did you notices that in all codex stuff will more likely benefit a players army over its enemy for a reason for chaos daemons we are invading from the warp that means powers of the warp are following said daemons thus the gods would have influence in the battle you might want to read the story telling part of the warp storm from time to time and understand why the storm is there.

About the rolls 4 of the rolls needs one 6 on a d6 to come into effect also most of them can scatter too 3 of the rolls can destroy the hole daemon army for example yay our main save is moved to a +6 invariable save that means were rolling on 6s to save (you re-roll a 1 as tzeentch) everyone of our units unless its a daemon with the warpforged armor and rolls that hurt your army one that most army don't have units that can be possessed or don't use them 1 roll that gives us a 1+ invulnerable save possibly the best in my opinion and one that can spawn mobs in but if you roll bad can spawn a low amount and remember these don't have upgrades to them also if your playing purge the alien can give the enemy a free points that or they could fail deep strike.

Why are you not taking any unit with skyfire? Take a defense line its under 100pts gives you skyfire and intercept put somebody with high BS and you can kill fateweaver in 1 turn on most rolls he's not the best HQ there all the best depending on there roll wish people would stop following the meta and think one unit is more viable then others if you think this way as a general expect to loose more then 50% of your games your army needs to adapt and work around the HQ you have.

What? Where did I say I think it should be a 50/50? I said that it does favour the Daemon player, I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. It makes up for Chaos Daemons' general lack of a shooting phase. What people often complain about, aside from its' random nature - that can punish the Daemons themselves - are some of the absolute bullcrap results. Hi Swarmlord! Bye Swarmlord! I hope you enjoy being a Tzeentch Herald!

What are you on about, exactly? I've read about or owned Daemons for over 10 years. I love the fluff behind the Warp Storm table. However, in game terms, it wasn't handled nearly as well as it could have been IMO.

I know how the Warp Storm Table works mate.....I've used it extensively. I did a massive review series on Chaos Daemons. What you fail to understand is that the random nature of rolling and the lack of *natural defences* for the opponent is what most complain about. The Daemon player get's a re-roll from Fateweaver (or a random Warlord Trait), musicians and champions. The other player gets zip. This is in conflict with its' "can punish either Daemons or the enemy" theme, as the opponent has no say in it and no defences against it. They should have just made the entire thing anti-enemy, dropped the crazy results (i.e. just left the four "gods attack you" results) and left it at that.

And just as an FYI, psykers are popping up more than ever. Tau don't have them, nor do Necrons, but pretty much every competitive Eldar build has one. Chaos Marines often have one, enemy Chaos Daemon armies have them incredibly often. Many Space Marine armies (cough Space Wolves cough) feature them quite often in their lists, particularly with the power-house that is Tigurius. Grey Knights are pretty much forced to take them. Competitive Inquisitor lists feature them. Trying to pass off that roll as "most army don't have units that can be possessed" is tripe, pure and simple.

Yes, those small extra units that give up victory points in one out of six mission types. Not much of a downside is it?
Even if you only spawn two or three Pink Horrors, those two or three Pink Horrors give you the same shooting capabilities as a 10-strong squad. Even in a kill point game, that is darned useful to have.

I'm not sure if I conveyed my point well enough. For grounding tests, Fateweaver statistically fails 1 out of 4, assuming he uses the re-roll for that purpose. He has 5 wounds and a 4+ invulnerable save. If the Daemon player is invested in him, he will either be hiding, part of a massive 'bomb' list including either Flesh Hounds, other flying monsters, or Screamers, and he may have the Grimoire on him. As Darklink said, if the Daemon player wants to keep their 300 point HQ alive, they will, and Skyfire won't make a lick of difference. And you would actually be surprised at how many competitive lists don't take *that* much Skyfire, simply because too many are scared to death to bring them with Tau and Eldar just laughing at them.

You seem to be posting on the assumption that I don't play Daemons. Well here's a hint; I do. I have used each of the HQs in-depth, and I am well aware that all of them have their uses. However, in your typical Daemon list featuring the Grimoire and one or a few big units, Fateweaver is invaluable almost for the re-roll alone. That he is a crazy psyker and very hard to kill naturally, plus offering the re-roll on the Warp Storm Table, makes him easily one of the best - if not the best - HQs available to a Chaos Daemon army. The 305 point Lord of Change build is insane with the right rolls, sure, but Fateweaver offers that reliability you really need for the Grimoire.

"stop following the meta and think one unit is more viable then others if you think this way as a general expect to loose more than 50% of your games"

Huh. So when I write a Tactica article describing how to use Pyrovores, I'm "following the meta"?

[Xaric]

Can you point out where I said you did not know daemons please? I was replying to your post with my own insight of how the warpstorm works on your current post on how it would seem you feel that a special rule in a codex is too powerful or it should be balanced to a 50/50 regardless if someone owns a army for 1 year or for 10 year this codex starts at march 2013 and most of the info before that edition is irrelevant due to it is out of date and may conflict current rules so please don't throw that i've been playing longer I know more then someone who has been playing for 2 and a half years.

[White Tiger88]

Huh. So when I write a Tactica article describing how to use Pyrovores, I'm "following the meta"?

No but that does make us all wonder how much you have been drinking..........

*cough*

Anyhow go go demons of chaos, Can't we all agree they are super fun? (And shinny)

[Learn2Eel]

Can you point out where I said you did not know daemons please? I was replying to your post with my own insight of how the warpstorm works on your current post on how it would seem you feel that a special rule in a codex is too powerful or it should be balanced to a 50/50 regardless if someone owns a army for 1 year or for 10 year this codex starts at march 2013 and most of the info before that edition is irrelevant due to it is out of date and may conflict current rules so please don't throw that i've been playing longer I know more then someone who has been playing for 2 and a half years.

You asked.

"you might want to read the story telling part of the warp storm from time to time and understand why the storm is there."

So yes, you actually did imply I didn't know what I was talking about in regards to the Warp Storm Table. My complaint - and that of others - as it appears I have to point out *again*, is that some of the results are just downright unfair. The "remove your psyker from the game and replace him with a Herald" result is just ludicrous, and the random nature of the whole thing with such incredibly skewed results is the mark of bad design rather than a balanced feature of a codex. It can screw over a Tyranid army led by the Swarmlord, it won't affect a Tau army. Who the heck thought that was a good idea?

The issue with the Warp Storm Table is that it was advertised and designed to be 'random' with the extreme results affecting either army, and the middle results affecting mostly the enemy. It is a silly table that, because of the random nature of it, can either completely be one-sided in a game, or do nothing at all. What would have made more sense is to cut it down to four results. Put in that dial thing from the Storm of Magic book and have a result that the particular Chaos God hit by the marker is in 'ascendancy', or punishes the enemy and their rival god. THAT would have made sense, been easier to integrate, and copped far less criticism. What we got was something that can end a game on turn one for no other reason than "oh, it's random". The next big issue to follow from this approach is that the Daemon player can prepare it for adequately through musicians, champions and Fateweaver. Enemies can't say the same thing. Now, sure, it is a Daemon thing and supposed to make up for their lack of shooting. But how does making up for their lack of shooting involve removing 200+ point psykers or spawning potentially 90+ points worth of free models? They went too darn far with the thing.

"if someone owns a army for 1 year or for 10 year this codex starts at march 2013 and most of the info before that edition is irrelevant due to it is out of date and may conflict current rules so please don't throw that i've been playing longer"

You told me to read up the Warp Storm bit as I hadn't read it. I noted that from a fluff perspective, as you decided to involve the "read the story telling part of the warp storm from time to time and understand why the storm is there" comment, my extensive experience with Daemons plus my thorough reading of the current codex allows me a huge amount of knowledge on the subject. I know exactly why the Warp Storm Table was included, and I laud the fact that it was. What I don't appreciate was how it was handled. Is that so hard to understand?

"i've been playing longer I know more then someone who has been playing for 2 and a half years"

Oh, so now we are playing the "I know more about 'x' than you!" game? You might want to take your own advice and go and re-read that post. I was quite clearly countering your rather offensive "you might want to read the story" comment.

We can agree to disagree on the merits and implications of the Warp Storm Table, but please note that your earlier assertion that I didn't understand the background behind its' inclusion were completely false.

[Xaric]

OK now you are contradicting your own knowledge your complaining that I am questioning your knowledge of the fluff perspective but your complaining that the warp storm table use's a lot of key points to how the daemons are in the warpstorm table? Hence possession may I ask how would one defend themselves from perils of the warp? Then explain how would one defend themselves from possession the answers to both is you can't your useing the emotional energy of the warp and well those who play with fire will one day get burned or as it go's get possessed yes I understand that 3 dice that i am not going to lie is quite strong but you can still fail or pass with them. But not all came bad from your post I freaking love the idea of the spin the wheel thing for the warpstorm it would greatly speed up the game so I am gonna have to make one :P thanks for the idea :P

[Learn2Eel]

OK now you are contradicting your own knowledge your complaining that I am questioning your knowledge of the fluff perspective but your complaining that the warp storm table use's a lot of key points to how the daemons are in the warpstorm table? Hence possession may I ask how would one defend themselves from perils of the warp? Then explain how would one defend themselves from possession the answers to both is you can't your useing the emotional energy of the warp and well those who play with fire will one day get burned or as it go's get possessed yes I understand that 3 dice that i am not going to lie is quite strong but you can still fail or pass with them. But not all came bad from your post I freaking love the idea of the spin the wheel thing for the warpstorm it would greatly speed up the game so I am gonna have to make one :P thanks for the idea :P

Huh?

How exactly am I contradicting myself? I acknowledged that fluff-wise, the Warp Storm Table makes sense. However, from a game balance perspective - the thing makes zero sense in its current incarnation and was handled poorly. So where exactly is the contradiction? Simply put, there isn't any. Again, you fail to understand that my, and others, complaints about the Warp Storm Table stem purely from a gaming perspective where it not only slows down gameplay, but it is far too punishing, forceful and random to be a truly balanced or smart rule implementation.

The issue is that the table has two incredibly opposed extremes that each have simply far too much effect on the game, so much so that it actively takes away the element of tactics and list building from the game. Something random that affects every turn and is almost exclusively beyond either players' control simply should not be able to swing a game by its' lonesome. If you lose a 305 point Lord of Change on the first turn to the single Instability test, or if an opponent loses a now 285 point Swarmlord to it, how exactly are they supposed to compete? Losing those monsters is supposed to be difficult and done by a combination of exploits by the opposing player and mistakes by the controlling player. But no, some random table that is as likely to kill one or the other as it is to do nothing at all is responsible for killing them. Wow. You realize this takes away the actual element of playing from the *players*? There should not be results on the Warp Storm Table that can do crap like that, especially when there are almost zero defences against it - and only the Daemon player benefits from those!

People have tried to pass it off as a representation of the more random aspects of Warhammer Fantasy, but they fail to acknowledge that in Fantasy, those 'random elements' are often caused by poor generalship or actual, you know, mistakes or heck, *playing* by the individuals involved. The magical miscast table is the perfect example of why the Warp Storm Table was badly implemented. In Fantasy, when a wizard draws too much power - represented usually by rolling too many dice at a spell to get it off - they miscast and, while the spell goes off, they must suffer the consequences. This can lead to their death by being sucked into the warp, the death of those around them from a magical detonation, or even the draining of their powers. This makes sense, providing tangible risks to trying to use more power dice for harder spells to get off. Now, contrast this to the Warp Storm Table. Hey, just by being on the table, you can get sucked into the warp, or your own Daemonic General can just be pulled back into the Realm of Chaos. Where was the risk? Where was the psyker or Daemon actively being either too risky with their powers, or being banished back to the warp by mortals and/or weakened, respectively? Where is the risk? Where is the reward? There is none, because the player has no say in it whatsoever. It is just an element designed to make up for Daemons' lack of shooting, and at that it succeeds, but it falls over itself by going too far and introducing game-changing effects which neither player has any control over.

This is what I mean when I say I like it from a fluff perspective, but I believe it was not implemented nearly as well as it could have been. Now, this isn't to say these horrendous results always happen; the chances of them actually happening are few and far between. But when it happens, they can spoil the game. And regardless of what you or your opponent does, there is nothing that can really 'stop' or mitigate these results. Games Workshop introduced the Eternal Warrior special rule so that certain units and characters of naturally higher expense or value couldn't be killed outright in a single blow. The key here is that those units and characters paid - and still do - for that ability. But now we have this random table that only the Daemon player can barely defend against ruining games because Eternal Warrior, 3+ invulnerable saves, Toughness 6 and other valuable stats are just ignored completely. Where is the fun in that? More importantly, where is the logic in that? And hey, the 2 result really is the worst. Every Daemon unit takes an Instability test. So if I am playing a game and roll that 2, what happens next? The potential for losing a third of your army just from that single random roll, or heck, losing entire units and characters - those double 6s - is crazy. What are you supposed to do against stuff like that? How is it supposed to be fair in the context of a game? Yes, rolling up a Venom Thicket in Fantasy sucks for a big block that wants to keep moving. But that is just one unit, and that is an outcome for taking the risk by moving into a randomly generated forest. This, this is just by playing the darn game and having a Chaos Daemon army appear. Zero control. Zilch.

Sure, daemonic possession happens a lot in the fluff. However, isn't that sort of what Perils of the Warp is for? Why does it only happen when a Chaos Daemon army is on the battlefield opposite a psyker or character, rather than potentially at any point they draw on psychic powers? Also, in the game, it can happen before the psyker even manifests any powers. How exactly are they getting possessed if they aren't maintaining or employing a connection to the warp? Even with the Warp Storm around, that stuff isn't really expressed well in the game. Something like daemonic possession of a psyker or other character should really have been a general rule in the 40K rulebook, applicable when psykers used more risky powers or characters used a daemonic weapon. A nifty idea would have been to play more on the Warp Charge rules by making the higher tier powers more powerful and the lesser tier ones, obviously, less powerful. Then, to represent the risk of using those higher powers albeit with greater rewards, rolling a certain dice roll could actually lead to a Daemonic Possession, regardless of whether Chaos Daemons were on the battlefield. That would have been cool and could have been used to represent the risks of using much more powerful psychic attacks. Of course, 40K doesn't really seem to lend itself to such an expanded psychic table, and I'm perfectly happy with how they function now. But one of the big missteps of the Daemon book is trying to introduce elements that really should not be part and parcel of just one army playing. These elements are just there to potentially ruin the game without any interaction or inclusion from the players.

Now, please don't get me wrong. Games I've played with and witnessed rarely have these game-changing effects occur. I like the thing myself and was one of its' staunchest defenders. Heck, I still am to this day. But trying to avoid the obvious issues in its design and implementation just isn't right, in my opinion. Random stuff that occurs beyond the players control - where you can't influence when they happen or how they happen, unlike potentially equally damaging miscasts in Fantasy - is bad game design, pure and simple.

I thank you for the discussion though! :) The fact that people are still discussing the Warp Storm Table in such different lights does really expose how controversial it has been, I guess.