Digital Copies & Tournaments

[Crafts N Things]

How are TO dealing with Digital Copies? Do you expect the players to bring the hard copies of the books, or is digital copies just accepted.
We are holding a tournament in January and the question has come up as one of our players has the collectors edition of the book and does not want people handling it but he has also purchased the digital copies. I had mentioned that I would like the players to have the codices and rulebook and only supplements we were excepting were the hard copy versions. I know that kills our SOB players which we have none. How are all the other TO dealing with this?

[iamian]

well, Where possible I plan on ONLY buying digital editions, so I am biased... but Im also not a TO

[lobster-overlord]

two camps on this likely. one is gw published ebooks, which should be legal, and then bootleg pdfs, which shouldnt be legal (in the game setting, and in the realm of copyright.) if its a legit gw produced product, how can a TO not allow it?

[Trianglebob777]

It's an official product. How can they not allow it? That would be like saying they wouldn't allow storm ravens or night spinners because they were in white dwarf before the became a codex entry. If GW released it and it's current well there you go.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

If I were a TO, I'd encourage the use of digital copies over hard copies. Faster rules references, and the errata gets added in.

[Katharon]

If I were a TO, I'd encourage the use of digital copies over hard copies. Faster rules references, and the errata gets added in.

Not everyone can afford to buy the newest iPad.

[Trianglebob777]

Not everyone can afford to buy the newest iPad.

Not everyone can afford the newest codex. As long as the person brings a digital copy for the other player to see what's the deal?

[DarkLink]

His point is, what if neither player can afford an ipad? If you buy your own codex, that's a relatively low expensive. As long as you have your own codex, no one has to spend several hundred dollars. Everyone brings their own codices, and all the relevant rules are present, for much, much cheaper than forcing people to buy ipads. I will never buy an ipad, and if a tournament decides to require one, I just won't go to that tournament. I can afford one, sure. But I've got better things to waste money on. Like Katharon says, requiring people to buy an ipad is a massive barrier to entry.

[Wolfshade]

I wouldn't get an iPad, but that is because I believe in a free market economy...

But there are other readers out there.

I think both should be fine as has been said previously they are both official GW.

To mandate one form over another just seems a little strange.

[SotonShades]

For a couple of tournaments I'm running next year, I am allowing the digital products, but they must be the original GW publications, not just pdfs of them. I'm also going to be quite strict that they must have the rules with them or they can't use the models, which means that if they run out of battery, they can't use the models. I'm making my players well aware of this before the event, so it is their responsibility to ensure they have full battery

[Wolfshade]

That actually sounds very sensible, after all an ebook on a tablet that has no power is as readable as a book left "at home".

[SaveModifier]

Not everyone can afford to buy the newest iPad.

At no point did he say he'd mandate the use of digital copies, he said he'd encourage it, as in, let people do it and welcome it.

Bloody hell, you people.

[SaveModifier]

His point is, what if neither player can afford an ipad? If you buy your own codex, that's a relatively low expensive. As long as you have your own codex, no one has to spend several hundred dollars. Everyone brings their own codices, and all the relevant rules are present, for much, much cheaper than forcing people to buy ipads. I will never buy an ipad, and if a tournament decides to require one, I just won't go to that tournament. I can afford one, sure. But I've got better things to waste money on. Like Katharon says, requiring people to buy an ipad is a massive barrier to entry.

Excusing , once more that you've flow off the handle about a perfectly reasonable comment about encouraging digital editions, then i must point out that you don't even have to use an ipad, digital editions as readable on phones, kindles and laptops. If you're posting on this forum, chances are, you have a device that can display a digital edition.

[Morgrim]

I'd say that you MUST have a copy of all relevant rules and you must allow your opponent to view them at any time. Which means you either bring a hard copy with you, or you must bring a device that can display the digital rules so that you can show it to your opponent. Which means you'll need a tablet or some other portable device to use a digital supplement (I suspect lugging a large laptop about would get awkward and you'd need to leave it on, taking several minutes to boot up any time there is a rules question would get you penalised for stalling).

If my opponent says I require a device to read their codex I'd report them for cheating because that is what I see it as, honestly, but I can't see any TO making those demands.

[Popsical]

I think most TO's will just ask for all rules needed to play should be at hand on request instantly. Simple really.
I also think most tournies will run on the BRB and codexs only, as the sheer amount of supplements coming out are becoming unmanageable in a tournie situation.

[Mr Mystery]

As ever, it's down the TO to decide what does and doesn't get used.

Some like to act like a Mini-Stalin, restricting list usage, and wanting to pass judgement (take that Godwin's Law!).

Others affect an 'anything goes' mentality.

And it's totally up to them, as it's their tournament. Don't like the rules pack or restrictions, or indeed lack of restrictions, don't partake in the Tournament.

If you do partake, you need to make sure the rules you intend to field are present and checkable, and ideally not pirated, because you are not some special little snowflake who gets to just have stuff for free, you're a thieving little oik who should be shunned.

Job jobbed, everyone comes up happy smiley clappy yay.

[Denzark]

Do you know what - I really dislike people I don't know handling my models without asking. Especially horde players who can sometimes be seen scooping handfuls of gaunts or grots into a massive pile they then fling in a random box. I just (admittedly paranoically) worry it will be dropped or whatever.

The thought of giving someone my expensive touch screen e-reader to maul with their sticky prints is also anathema to me. They can flick through my dog-eared codex to their heart's content, but I don't like the thought of a stranger with my electronics.

[DarkLink]

Excusing , once more that you've flow off the handle about a perfectly reasonable comment about encouraging digital editions, then i must point out that you don't even have to use an ipad, digital editions as readable on phones, kindles and laptops. If you're posting on this forum, chances are, you have a device that can display a digital edition.

I wasn't responding to the guy who was "encouraging digital editions".

Also, just because you have access to a cheap computer does not mean you have an extra five hundred dollars laying around. Maybe you spent your spare five hundred on the laptop you're posting with. Maybe you're posting from a family computer or something. There are a lot of young people with little to no money in this hobby, and I know a lot of people with little to no income in the hobby as well. In fact, now that I think about it, gamers seem to be pretty poor in general.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Not everyone can afford to buy the newest iPad.I never said it should ever be a requirement, just that I'd allow/encourage those who do own a Digital Edition to bring it to the tournament.

Just like how many TOs encouraged the use of army builder, since the print-outs were pretty convenient, but rarely required it.

[SaveModifier]

I wasn't responding to the guy who was "encouraging digital editions".

Also, just because you have access to a cheap computer does not mean you have an extra five hundred dollars laying around. Maybe you spent your spare five hundred on the laptop you're posting with. Maybe you're posting from a family computer or something. There are a lot of young people with little to no money in this hobby, and I know a lot of people with little to no income in the hobby as well. In fact, now that I think about it, gamers seem to be pretty poor in general.

Again, no one said you needed an extra $500 to buy a tablet with. You're getting mad about things you're inventing yourself to get mad about mate

[Mr Mystery]

Talking about Apple...'appen I get a healthy discount through work......

Sadly, code isn't working. Discount partners are being berated as I type!

[DarkLink]

I'm not mad. Nor am I sure you're actually reading this whole thread.

Karathon replied to someone, saying 'not everyone can afford an ipad'. Someone else said 'yeah-huh, if you can afford a codex you can afford an ipad'. I replied 'no, that's not necessarily true'. And then you came out of the blue with a misunderstanding about what I was saying and who I was saying it too. So, what's your problem?

[SaveModifier]

I'm not mad. Nor am I sure you're actually reading this whole thread.

Karathon replied to someone, saying 'not everyone can afford an ipad'. Someone else said 'yeah-huh, if you can afford a codex you can afford an ipad'. I replied 'no, that's not necessarily true'. And then you came out of the blue with a misunderstanding about what I was saying and who I was saying it too. So, what's your problem?

No one said that.

[Orange]

I don't see why Digital Editions and the such would not be allowed. I currently have all of the codices on my iPad, including all of the Supplements and the new Formations and expect to be doing so with the new Escalation supplement as well. To not be able to field models because it is on an iPad/Digital Reader and not a hard copy is silly. I can just as easily pull up rules as anyone else and can usually find my opponent's rules faster than they can through their hard copy books as everything is bookmarked or interactive.

I keep digitally scanned copies of my hard codices not available to me on my digital reader so I am not hauling around a set of books from Forge World that many would love to get their hands on and also keep copies of the rules in Word Documents saved as PDFs for Experimental Rules, such as for my R'Varna, or when I write up my army list so I can show my opponent my list afterwards and can even e-mail it to them in the store if they want to look over it afterwards with all of the rules each model has and their statlines so they can be better prepared for the next time we play as I don't like sweeping people and like hard fought victories to improve my play.

[DarkLink]

They'd better be allowed. Take Sisters, for example. They are a digital only release. Ban that, and what are you going to do? Force them to go online and find a torrent of the White Dwarf armylist? Because that's pretty much the only way to get it. Banning their digital codex would basically ban them from the game.


No one said that.

Well, what was said was this:


Not everyone can afford the newest codex. As long as the person brings a digital copy for the other player to see what's the deal?

And, if you bothered to read the thread, you'd see I'm merely responding to this. So, again, what's your problem?

[His_Dudeness]

Just sayin you can get an original ipad on ebay for like $100. Other tablets are even cheaper. I would say there should be restrictions on people using their smart phone as their rulebook.

[Katharon]

Wow, things seem to have gone a bit nuts.

My comment was not to counter the quoted comment. I'm merely trying to point out that, even with the wide proliferation of eCodices and supplements that we shouldn't encourage or discourage the use of electronic means to looking at the game's rules. I personally am rather appalled at GW's recent upsurge in the selling of electronic content -- most of it is pure money-grabs, since it costs them nothing to produce and is all net-gain. As such, the success of their business model on that subject should be decided by the players. If we start encouraging or even, Emperor-forbid, demanding that players use electronic copies to keep track of everyting, then we will be nothing less than GW drones or cash cows.

So, if you are using a set of rules from a supplement, just make sure you have a copy of it -- either printed out, hardback book, or electronic version. We should encourage players to always have the rules for their armies with them, regardless of the method for viewing those rules.

Also, about a comment on players whose batteries die and no longer allowed to use their models as a result -- that's so severe as to be BS imho. Sh*t happens and sometimes a player's electronic means of viewing his or her rules might fail, be broken, or otherwise incapacitated beyond their ability to control. To punish them as a result of that is too harsh and should be the subject of another discussion thread -- not here in this thread.

[craftsnthings]

OK if I allow Digital format how do i confirm it is legally purchased?

[Katharon]

OK if I allow Digital format how do i confirm it is legally purchased?

You don't. It's none of your business how a person came into possession of the rules. If you're a GW employee at a GW-organized event, then you would have the responsibility to report the player in question to the TO's and that person would probably just be asked to leave. Private-organized events, it's not your content and it's not your prerogative to act like a witch-hunter.

[GravesDisease]

I personally am rather appalled at GW's recent upsurge in the selling of electronic content -- most of it is pure money-grabs, since it costs them nothing to produce and is all net-gain.


If this is a throwaway comment, that's fine. However, if it has informed your stance then you may want to reconsider. The quoted statement is completely fallacious. Using a digital publishing platform is fraught with pitfalls and costs. The mentality of "Oh we have bought the tool and fixed all the bugs, it's just a case of publishing content now right?" is what most products owners assume and are baffled by the ongoing IT costs. You don't have to worry about distribution or stock but it is a non trivial task to create a digital product - even with bespoke tools.

You do know they produce PDFs as well right? PDFs are viewable on pretty much anything with a screen and lend themselves to be printed rather well. To go back to the actual original point of the thread the new pdf format codices probably benefit tournaments MORE since it's easier to print out then to photocopy your hardback.

[Katharon]

If this is a throwaway comment, that's fine. However, if it has informed your stance then you may want to reconsider. The quoted statement is completely fallacious. Using a digital publishing platform is fraught with pitfalls and costs. The mentality of "Oh we have bought the tool and fixed all the bugs, it's just a case of publishing content now right?" is what most products owners assume and are baffled by the ongoing IT costs. You don't have to worry about distribution or stock but it is a non trivial task to create a digital product - even with bespoke tools.

You do know they produce PDFs as well right? PDFs are viewable on pretty much anything with a screen and lend themselves to be printed rather well. To go back to the actual original point of the thread the new pdf format codices probably benefit tournaments MORE since it's easier to print out then to photocopy your hardback.

It was a sweeping statement. Of course it costs money to produce eBooks -- it's only about 20% +- a bit less expensive than traditional printing. However, once the process is in place and the network is readily available for quick release of PDFs, it's an exponential profit growth. Especially with concerns to the pricing, which can be inflated to suit the company in question.

[Crafts N Things]

Katharon
"You don't. It's none of your business how a person came into possession of the rules. If you're a GW employee at a GW-organized event, then you would have the responsibility to report the player in question to the TO's and that person would probably just be asked to leave. Private-organized events, it's not your content and it's not your prerogative to act like a witch-hunter. "


The reason, I ask is because I am a Tournament Organizer and I do care if it is legal. As well as any player. If it ends up John Doe brings a codex that was suppose to have been downloaded and has altered it, and is playing with it. That screws up a whole tournament. Plus it is absolutely wrong. What I am asking is how do you figure out if the copy of the codex is legit. You know not altered?

[DarkLink]

How do you know they didn't photoshop and print out a copy of a physical codex using fancy printers and stuff? Sometimes you just have to accept there is a theoretical possibility people will cheat. Just get a TOs copy of the rules and use that as a reference. Yeah, there are inconveniences, but ultimately your job is to provide games to players, not ban armies because they only have digital rules and you don't want to try and make it work.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i know of a group of guys who had their old GW books spiral bound does that make their books any less valid? seriously your not a piracy attorney your not an agent of law enforcement and even if you were honestly no one in their right mind is going to sit down and check to see if your ipad version is legal or a pdf you ripped off... you start that and then some one will argue why aren't you checking actual physical book? they can just as easily be altered rebound and changed. so you stop me and say i need to see your ipad. i tell you no it my property you say fine you have to leave. i go fine give me back my money now you as a TO are going to give me back my money as i am pretty sure you will not want the scene. going down that road will lead to only trouble. if a player wishes to use an illegal copy that is his choice and his prerogative, not yours. You will want to consider that before you really go down such a path. for one thing if your going to acuse some one of theft you had better have some daming proff and 2 if your messing around with someone expensive device i would warn you that damaging said device is a criminal act in itself. those things aren't cheap and damage to them isnt a summary offense.

[Crafts N Things]

There were some really good points at the beginning that helped me to decide to allow Digital copies, but as TO I don't want any cheating either.As I am sure all TO'S would be worried.

[Crafts N Things]

wow Really. Nice answer Not. From what i just read you encourage people to cheat and if you go to a tournament and someone asks to see your digital book so they can confirm a rule and u go all ape sh*t like that because they want to confirm the rule maybe u should have brought the book for your opponent then

[Crafts N Things]

I came to this site because it had a good reputation. I did not expect to get jumped on when I was asking simple advice on Digital copies and stuff. I am really sorry I asked the question. Not impressed with the response of some people over reacting to my question.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

ya going all ape **** because i would not want some ones grubby hands all over an expensive piece of tech.... do you loan out your laptop? do you just hand over your smart phone to anyone? me i know i don't The TO has a responsibility to have access to his own sets of rules to check. Me its not the same as handing over a 50$ book. and even that i would not want to hand over to some stranger. You have to consider the risk to damaging my stuff. i dunno about you but i am not made of money. I would never let some strange person touch my phone let alone a computer or tablet. You want to take that risk then so be it. If there is a rules dispute you call over a TO its that simple. Not sure how this is rocket science or frigging brain surgery. and again with your uneducated quips... seriously accusing someone of cheating again with out proof that's slander ;) maybe you should look it up.

[Crafts N Things]

JOHN DOE is a FAKE Person it was as an Example not an accusation
I know very well and Never accused anyone EVER of cheating, I said I would not want anyone cheating. NOT FAIR FOR ANYONE. The point of a tournament is to have fun is it not. Or are you a power gamer?
I think if you were worried about your electronic device you would bring paper copy for a rules look up that your opponent can look at. Instead of wasting time calling over a TO, and causing slow play.
I think you are very rude, about something that was simple question not a statement, I was looking for honest advice from a group of gamers that had a good reputation.
I don't care how people come by there digital copy that isn't my worry, it was can they be altered, can you tell if they were altered? Not that I am calling anyone a cheater, or anything. It was more how to figure out if something is been altered. Enough said I have gotten some of my answers that to some people on this group. Thank you for the good information.

[Crafts N Things]

Thank you DarkLink, I never even thought of altered Codeces :( I want the tournament to be fun for all. :) I do agree however that there are so many supplements coming out it is a nightmare to keep up with and I really can't afford to purchase them all so I have rules reference for a tournament, that is why I rely so heavily on the players.

[Nabterayl]

Thank you DarkLink, I never even thought of altered Codeces :( I want the tournament to be fun for all. :) I do agree however that there are so many supplements coming out it is a nightmare to keep up with and I really can't afford to purchase them all so I have rules reference for a tournament, that is why I rely so heavily on the players.
I echo DarkLink's sentiment that the risk of digitally altered codices is one that you can really only guard against by having your own reference copies (which you've indicated is not financially feasible - something I quite understand). At the same time, I think that the risk of digitally altered codices (whether digitally altered digital e-books or digitally altered printouts) is small enough that it doesn't really bear losing much sleep over. It's certainly possible to digitally alter a printout so that it looks like you've just copied the relevant pages of your physical codex, and I'm sure it's possible to digitally alter an e-book, but for most people that would not be a trivial task.

In addition to being a small enough risk that I don't think you need to spend too much worry guarding against it, I also think it's a small enough risk that it wouldn't be fair to penalize players for bringing the product. After all, for every person who brings an e-book version of their codex or supplement specifically because they are savvy enough to have altered the file, there are going to be a hundred people (or a thousand) who bring the e-book version because it's lighter and/or they find it more user-friendly.

[Tannarak]

Howdy!

I don't know if you do the pre-registration or not, but if you did, you could ask other members of the group to bring in the codexes that you didn't have. This would give you a little bit of time to acquire the ones that you and the group were missing.

[DarkLink]

I mean, I was being a little bit facetious, it's a lot harder to fake a physical copy of a codex than a digital one, but I do feel that the cost of trying to prevent cheaters is far too great if it means effectively banning entire armies, like the Sisters of Battle. I fully understand the difficulties on the TOs, I am buddies with Reece and a couple of other TOs for fairly large tournaments, but sometimes you just have to keep your goal in site. Providing games is the step one, preventing cheating is step two, and it's pointless to forego step one in favor of step two.

[WildAnimal]

Are there so many cheaters? Really?
And how would they cheat? Make up special rules? Modified stats?

One of the more crazy threads, I've seen around, but I see the importance if people are cheating like is kinda normal practice. What give the hobby degraded too...sad

[DarkLink]

They are there, but they're caught by attentive players, rarely by judges.

[WildAnimal]

They are there, but they're caught by attentive players, rarely by judges.

It's just a toy soldier war game, and people cheat? Don't get it. Could people post some examples they have experienced adult people have tried/succeed in cheating?
I'm getting some popcorn, sounds exciting.

[Katharon]

I've never known anyone to be douche-bag enough to edit a digital copy to make their units stronger. That's so dumb because the rules can be checked with a second and third copy. If 1 of these things is not like the other...you get the drill. But that is totally different from questioning the providence of a eCodex or supplement -- you're talking about a different issue altogether.

[Morgrim]

Also, about a comment on players whose batteries die and no longer allowed to use their models as a result -- that's so severe as to be BS imho. Sh*t happens and sometimes a player's electronic means of viewing his or her rules might fail, be broken, or otherwise incapacitated beyond their ability to control. To punish them as a result of that is too harsh and should be the subject of another discussion thread -- not here in this thread.
It seems both this concern and the concern about people damaging your electronic device could be resolved by printing off the relevant pages of rules. That way you'd only need to show your original copy on your device if the TO was concerned it differed, and in such a case depending on the size of the tournament they may choose to check with a different player that also had the same rules.

Either way, you absolutely need a copy of the rules available to your opponent, in whichever format works best.

[DarkLink]

It's just a toy soldier war game, and people cheat? Don't get it. Could people post some examples they have experienced adult people have tried/succeed in cheating?
I'm getting some popcorn, sounds exciting.

I've gone to a lot of tournaments. Of those, I can think of one, maybe two, cases of a player blatantly getting caught cheating. One player had magnetized all the weapons on his vehicles (Eldar, iirc, back in 5th), and swapped them out each game based on who he was facing. Players talk between games, though, and a couple of his opponents figured it out and he got caught. Every once and a while, a story like this pops up. I recall another battle report where a guy was caught with loaded dice. But we're talking about a handful of cases over the course of the last couple of years of worldwide tournaments. Blatant cheating like that is pretty rare.

More common is a case where a rule gets played wrong in a way that may or may not have been intentional. But that's very hard to differentiate from cases of legitimate confusion. Like a player "forgetting" that their assault unit doesn't have frag grenades, or something like that. Usually, the players who pull this stuff get a reputation, so this is not an unknown. A smart TO will have judges keep an eye on these guys. That's tougher to do for large tournaments where there are a lot of players that fly in from all over to play, but those tend to have more judges and the players tend to know the game better in the first place so they're less likely to get duped.

But, for the most part, the vast majority of people I've played in tournaments are quality opponents. I can confidently say that, as a way of getting 3+ guaranteed games in on a weekend, I've never been disappointed by a tournament, even on the rare occasion I did run into a crappy opponent.

[Katharon]

It seems both this concern and the concern about people damaging your electronic device could be resolved by printing off the relevant pages of rules. That way you'd only need to show your original copy on your device if the TO was concerned it differed, and in such a case depending on the size of the tournament they may choose to check with a different player that also had the same rules.

Either way, you absolutely need a copy of the rules available to your opponent, in whichever format works best.

Not everyone has a printer. Basically, all I'm saying is that if someone has a copy of the rules -- in any fashion -- then allow it. If that copy of rules is somehow damaged or no longer able to be read (you spilled black coffee all over your print outs, codex, or you lit it on fire), that should not disbar a player from continued play. He or she can undoubtedly find another person who can provide them with a copy or hopefully knows their rules enough to continue. If a TO want's to get anal-retentive about this, then that's not a tournament that I'll be participating in.

[WildAnimal]

I'm seriously thinking about acquiring the ONLY Digital version of the Upcoming Tyranid Codex, the reason is the horrific amount of FAQ's GW comes up with, often on the same day as the published book. And I HATE having to carry around a print out FAQ stack equally too an inch of paper. So digital codex with automatic FAQ updates sound like a bliss to me!
I love reading paper books, and dislike reading digital books, so maybe a selected printout from the Digital codex is possible my best solution.

Sadly GW is way to high-priced about there Digital products (and physical books), that i'm thinking on going "pirate", until I atleast can see how much FAQ are needed to make the physical book playable.

Does anyone know if you can actually print from the iPad Digital Codex?

[Santa]

Digital is the way to go for me, the ability to carry around all my codexes, the rule book and any of these new formation data sheets on one handy tablet is just fantastic. The updates when the FAQs come along are great too.
I'm just waiting for GW to release a dice app, a camera operated template app that over lays the blast template using the camera, snap a picture and then use the the dice app to see if it hits or not. The app could even scatter the template in the direction and distance the dice says it should be. Oh and a digital tape measure app.

[Katharon]

I'm just waiting for GW to release a dice app, a camera operated template app that over lays the blast template using the camera, snap a picture and then use the the dice app to see if it hits or not. The app could even scatter the template in the direction and distance the dice says it should be. Oh and a digital tape measure app.

No thanks.

[Mr Mystery]

I've never known anyone to be douche-bag enough to edit a digital copy to make their units stronger. That's so dumb because the rules can be checked with a second and third copy. If 1 of these things is not like the other...you get the drill. But that is totally different from questioning the providence of a eCodex or supplement -- you're talking about a different issue altogether.

Thing is, as an opponent you need to know to query.

For instance, someone fields say, Sternguard. And alters their digital copy (somehow, dunno how you'd do that meself) to include a 2 point per model upgrade to Artificer armour. List shows points are paid, and *poof* Sternguard appear to be allowed Artificer Armour as an upgrade. Not everone is au fait with every army (I try to be, and own a copy of every Codex except Blood Angels, which I always forget I'm missing when spending my pennies) so a small but significant change, especially when not outside the realms of the background expectation could feasibly be slipped past most players.

Because the change there is plausible, many players wouldn't know to question it, allowing the charade to continue.

Likewise everyone's least favourite Orky unit (on account they're forever wrecking our stuffs), Lootas. If I altered it to show they could have an upgrade to 'Eavy Armour, being Lootas, it doesn't sound out of whack....

[Katharon]

I guess being the person I am, I've always been pretty good at collecting information and retaining it for future use in my head. Once I've seen something I'll usually remember it. So when I hear something, like a guy claiming a 2+ armor save on Sternguard or Lootas having heavy armor -- I instantly begin asking questions and to see evidence of proof; my cynicism kicks in, so to speak. Changes like that would not get run by me.

Especially since every player has the right to ask their opponent to see their codex and show them proof. If for some reason a player is not familiar, then ask a 3rd party. If two people know something is wrong about a 3rd persons assertions or codex, then its fair to bring up an argument about it or call the person out on their BS.