Chaos Space Marines memory failure

[The Traitor]

So Chaos Marines don't have access to the "newest" adeptus astartes equipment,such as thunder hammers,storm bolters,land speeders,assault cannons,whirlwinds,etc. because they were cut off the technological developement for millennia.Maybe that's true for the Traitor Legions. But what about the renegades?Let's say,you are a chapter that for whichever reason turns traitor and flees into the eye of terror then what,you get stopped at the entrance by someone who says:sorry lads,no land speeders allowed,just park 'em near the land raider redeemers? Or maybe terminators go to the company techmarine asking "hey dude,what's those fancy guns we have?we really don't know how to use them!"
I think we owe an explanation,at least ...

[Sly]

They get fed to the Maulerfiends when you join the club.

[Badtucker]

upkeep on newer tech isnt available to the chaos legions, and few chaos legions have any kind of tech marines in their armies he keep any tech in order. They must go to specific places and barter with those members of dark mechanicum that still exist in order to get weapons and such, and they still manufacture all the heresy style things. They never moved on past the heresy except into the field of demon engines etc.

As for renegades, they will quickly find themselves in a position where they cant re supply or maintain new equipment and casualties will eventually weed out specialists capable of doing so also, forcing the renegades to deal with those who would help them and such they would see themselves using more and more heresy style equipment thats available in the Eye and so on. Also a not on Renegades - its rare for whole chapters to go renegade, often its a company or unit or single marine. they will never be able to maintain imperial issue equipment in the long tearm and many often are swallowed up by other warbands like the black legion, when there they will just learn to make do with whats available in the Eye.

You could represent a recently fallen chapter with normal marine rules before they are forced to take up older pattern weaponry.

[GrauGeist]

"we really don't know how to use them!"

In the grim dark future of the Imperium, hardware is managed by unholy DRM locks.

Just as MicroSoft turns off your XBox access, so to does the Imperium turn off the Land Speeders.

It's a newer development, which is why only the newest tech fails, whereas old standby Rhinos and Land Raiders are "hackable" and "rootable" to still be available.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think it's a balance issue (to the extent that GW cares about balance). If Chaos was just "regular marines + chaos powers," then the codices would be a lot harder to write. That's why they lose things like ATSKNF and "modern" gear. I get that it's frustrating and weird, but as Badtuker points out, you have options if you want to run a newly-turned warband (or, in my case, a loyal-but-renegade chapter).

[Wildeybeast]

It's also worth mentioning that not all chapters use all vehicle variants. Also, there will be few occasions where chapters are fully stocked in terms of vehicles, weapons and armour. They are in near continuous use and a constant cycle of replacement. It's not like a chapter sits there and thinks 'right, we are going to go renegade, so we better make sure we have ten of everything and don't do any fighting for the next few years whilst we stock up'. Plenty of fluff reasons why they don't have access to all the loyalist equipment (and rules for that matter).

[GrauGeist]

You could represent a recently fallen chapter with normal marine rules before they are forced to take up older pattern weaponry.

You can also represent an "old-school" Chapter (like an early Black Templars crusade) with CSM rules...

[Wildcard]

Doesn't Forge Worlds horus heresy series (wh30k) have units with thunder hammers and assault cannons? Atleast i believe i've read (or listened audiobooks) where such weapons are described...

Imo "something is hard (balance in this case)" is always a cheap reason not to include some stuff.. Although i do agree on points that were pointed out that truly new gear (after heresy invented) is not easily maintained on the eye, even it someone in there possessed any "know-how"..

[DarkLink]

I think it's a balance issue (to the extent that GW cares about balance). If Chaos was just "regular marines + chaos powers," then the codices would be a lot harder to write. That's why they lose things like ATSKNF and "modern" gear. I get that it's frustrating and weird, but as Badtuker points out, you have options if you want to run a newly-turned warband (or, in my case, a loyal-but-renegade chapter).

Yeah, I don't think anyone wants CSM incorporated into the vanilla Marine codex.

[GrauGeist]

Yeah, I don't think anyone wants CSM incorporated into the vanilla Marine codex.

OTOH, some of us would like nothing better than to see Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels join the Black Templars in the vanilla Space Marines Codex.

[Sly]

OTOH, some of us would like nothing better than to see Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels join the Black Templars in the vanilla Space Marines Codex.

I could definitely see Blood Angels and Dark Angels represented as Supplements off the SM Codex. They each really could be done with just a few unit changes.
Space Wolves, not so much.

[GrauGeist]

I could definitely see Blood Angels and Dark Angels represented as Supplements off the SM Codex. They each really could be done with just a few unit changes.
Space Wolves, not so much.

If Templars can be represented under vanilla, so can Woofs. Woofs aren't so much more special than Templars. Just lucky to have had an older first standalone Codex. But recall early 3E, and Woofs were just fine as an Appendix list.

And quite frankly, GW would be foolish not to get Woof players to pay twice for rules (Space Marines Codex and Space Wolf Addendum). That really is the strongest reason to shoehorn Woofs under Vanilla.

[Mr Mystery]

If Templars can be represented under vanilla, so can Woofs. Woofs aren't so much more special than Templars. Just lucky to have had an older first standalone Codex. But recall early 3E, and Woofs were just fine as an Appendix list.

And quite frankly, GW would be foolish not to get Woof players to pay twice for rules (Space Marines Codex and Space Wolf Addendum). That really is the strongest reason to shoehorn Woofs under Vanilla.

Expect the different units like Bloodclaws, Wolf Scouts, Fenrisian Wolves, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Wolfguard, Grey Hunters.....you know, all the substantially different units that make Space Wolves Space Wolves yes?

As for recent renegade chapters....

Marine equipment has a necessarily high attrition rate, meaning regular maintenance and rebuilding is essential. This is made possible due to the wider imperium and it's resources.

Renegades.....they may retain the skills (Techmarines), but resources? Much harder to come by. Flee to the Maelstrom or Eye of Terror, and watch the more established powers quickly asset strip the best stuff. I'd imagine anything truly rare, like anything anti-Grav or relic equipment to be a solid bargaining chip with the Dark Mechanicum. Trade the Speeders for regular maintenance of the more critical requirements. Like Power Armour, Bolters and Ammo.

[GrauGeist]

Expect the different units like Bloodclaws, Wolf Scouts, Fenrisian Wolves, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Wolfguard, Grey Hunters.....you know, all the substantially different units that make Space Wolves Space Wolves yes?

SW can go back to bog standard Assault Marines, Scouts, Veterans and Tacticals with different fluff names.

That just leaves the Beasts & Cavalry, which are easily covered in the 2 pages of new rules of a Supplement.

Again, look at the Templars, which were supposed to be "too special".

[Mr Mystery]

So **** space wolves and their players then?

You really thought that through chum?

Indeed. It seems your entire argument there is 'of course they're the same, if you purposefully remove all the things that make them unique'

Bravo. Really good argument. Totally persuasive too, with nary a hint of straw clutching.

[Lexington]

The "real" answer to this is that the Chaos Space Marine line, in the 2nd Edition incarnation that it's still based on, was meant to more or less exclusively represent the Traitor Legions. Since the 4th Edition Chaos book, renegade Marines from more recent eras have been a much bigger focus of the background, but GW's never updated the model line or Codex entries to reflect this, which leaves us with the odd situation of Marines who turned Traitor last week running around with Reaper Autocannons and the like, which have been out of date for the last ten millennia...

There's also been more recent changes to the background when it comes to weaponry. While the older background presented an Imperium where technology was just immensely slow to advance, the detailing of the Heresy has changed so that almost nothing has been invented since the Emperor went to his throne. So, really, Chaos Marines should be running around with weaponry that's not much different from that of the Loyalists.

Short answer being, it doesn't make much sense. Try not to think about it too much.


Expect the different units like Bloodclaws, Wolf Scouts, Fenrisian Wolves, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Wolfguard, Grey Hunters.....you know, all the substantially different units that make Space Wolves Space Wolves yes?
Well, many these units have pretty easy analogues in the Marine Codex. Pop the options for a few power weapons and some SW "Chapter Tactics"-esque special rules on them, and you're looking at a force that's got an army list that's spectacularly different when making an army, but much the same in its results. One can easily make this argument for the Blood/Dark Angel contingents as well. From a functional standpoint, I don't see either way being particularly preferable, so long as all the Marine books keep the same points and rules for their many equivalent units.

[DarkLink]

Grey Hunters are basically tac Marines with no sergeant, no heavy weapon, space wolf chapter tactics , and a ccw. There, that covers the rules for space wolf tacticals.


OTOH, some of us would like nothing better than to see Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels join the Black Templars in the vanilla Space Marines Codex.

Yes. Chapter Tactics: BA/SW/DA, and you're 95% of the way there. Throw in their special characters, and their unique units would only require a couple of sentances added on to the default options (e.g. BA predators may take tl assault cannons or flamestorm cannons), and you're 99% there. Supplements can easily handle the extra fluff amd add in a few more toys.

[Mr Mystery]

So if you need supplements, just do Codecies. Get it all in one place.

The espouse method was tried in 3rd Edition. Fan reaction was not what one might consider favourable.

[Trianglebob777]

I think with the release of the new Heresy books from FW it calls into question why the chaos Marines don't have more cool toys. Sure they have been battling for 10000 years or maybe on 10 the warp is a varied place. They should have access to some of the stuff that has always been, and is now, more established as having been integral Heresy era equipment like Land Speeders as well some of the more esoteric things like jetbikes and such but pay a premium for them.

Also blah blah rage about not having the 3.5 codex.

[Katharon]

If GW doesn't release a supplement for Renegade Chapters, then I will just write my own.

[daboarder]

The reason CSM are so ratchet is because in exchange for TH/SS, Pods, Razors, PC's, CML's and all the other stuff is because we used to get daemonic units and other alternatives, but they ripped all that out of our book in 4th ed and have left us playing with the bloody corpse that was left ever since. They fleshed out daemons pretty nicely but they never bothered to plug the gaps in the chaos book.

[GrauGeist]

So **** space wolves and their players then?

Indeed. It seems your entire argument there is 'of course they're the same, if you purposefully remove all the things that make them unique'

**** you, perhaps. There is no reason Woofs should be treated more special than Templars.

And they're not particularly unique more than a blue cube with a single re-painted grey.

[GrauGeist]

So if you need supplements, just do Codecies.

Why should GW write several editions of the same thing? And then have players ***** over which version of the otherwise identical thing is "better"? Should Rhinos or Plasma or Power Weapons really cost something different between Space Marine armies? Should things with the same name have slightly different stats depending on the book?

Supplements are smarter.

[daboarder]

twenty or so years of history would disagree with you grau

[GrauGeist]

First, it's not 20 years from the last old supplement to the first new one.

Second, GW is the one who decided to go back to supplements, not you or I. You're foolishly arguing against GW's demonstrated change in direction which drives more revenue and profit.

[daboarder]

its has been around 17 years since the BA's, DA's, and SW's got their first rules, they are as old institutions as many of the armies they are played against, and older than some (tau, Crons, Dark eldar) THAT is how they have earned their right to separate existences.

[DarkLink]

So if you need supplements, just do Codecies. Get it all in one place.


You wouldn't actually need supplements. At all. It really wouldn't be that difficult. I mean, people might rage, and be all like "AAARRRGGGGHHHH, BUT MY GREY HUNTERS ARE NOW CALLED TACTICAL MARINES AND IT'S A TRAVESTY", but the rules would be effectively identical to what they are not, without adding any real undue length to the codex.

Another thing to point out, it would be pretty easy to condense the fifteen different veteran units in the SM codex into one big entry. Just compressing duplicate units like that literally cuts the length of the army list section in half without losing any actual rules. Fill those pages in with fluffy, chapter specific characters and unique units, and you could pretty easily have more options for each army than there currently are.

But really, the biggest single massive advantage with the supplement setup is that you don't invalidate the previous Marine codex each time a new one comes out. So far, BA or DA or whatever comes out, and it's cool for a while, and then the new vanilla book comes out and people are like 'why would I ever play DA when I could have 3+ storm shields instead?", or "why are these BA units so overpriced compared to the vanilla book?". For literally the entirety of the time I've played 40k, I've heard nothing but complaining from Marine players about how their codex is so outdated compared to that other Marine codex. And it really doesn't have to be that way.

[GrauGeist]

Let's look the Woof Codex timeline:
1994 2E Codex
1998 3E rulebook appendix
2000 3E mini-dex supplement
2009 5E Codex

That's 3 printings for:
4 years standalone
11 years supplement
4+ years standalone

Space Wolves have been a supplement much longer (11 years) than they have been standalone (4 + 4+ years).


Now, let's look at Chaos Marines:
1996 2E Codex
1998 3E rulebook list
1999 3E Codex
2002 3E Codex, revised
2007 4E Codex
2012 6E Codex

That's 5 Chaos (Marine) printings, all standalone.

And Space Marines (Ultras) are similar, with a Codex every edition.

Arguing that Woofs are somehow deserving of a full Codex like Eldar or Orks is just laughable.

[The Traitor]

[/QUOTE]watch the more established powers quickly asset strip the best stuff. I'd imagine anything truly rare, like anything anti-Grav or relic equipment to be a solid bargaining chip with the Dark Mechanicum. Trade the Speeders for regular maintenance of the more critical requirements. Like Power Armour, Bolters and Ammo.[/QUOTE]
Ok but the Dark Mechanicum should at least try to mantain\duplicate this kind of equipment..so to say,0-1 choice of "warp speeders",or different options for land raiders weaponry,or "relic equipment" similar to chapter relics.
About whole chapters turning traitor,in the new csm book there's about 30 of them listed.

[Arkhan Land]

You could represent a recently fallen chapter with normal marine rules before they are forced to take up older pattern weaponry.

I really wish they would update rules for Relictors, limited imperium allies, Leadership units take Demon Weapons, Chaos Banners taken, nillar rines. Anything after that point is going to get excommunicated. and I mean that very literally, Index Astartes entry details the chapter right up until the point where they get destroyed save one company which happens in fluff following it. Its a subtle way to chaos but after you cross the line its a steep fall off, getting pulled of the imperium's logistical and tech teet.

[DWest]

One possibility to consider, I doubt this is GW's actual thinking, but all 3 of the non-Codex Marine armies are deviant in their background, sufficiently so as to warrant Exterminatus if the truth ever got out (BA with the Black Rage, DA with the Fallen, SW with the Wulfen).

As far as gear for Chaos, what would be brillant (or at least as close to brilliant as GW will get) is give the CSM a "relic slot" to take things from IA2. That way you can have a Land Speeder, or a modern Land Raider, or what-have-you, but only 1 per detachment, representing how rare it is to have the parts to make the things run right.

[Mr Mystery]

watch the more established powers quickly asset strip the best stuff. I'd imagine anything truly rare, like anything anti-Grav or relic equipment to be a solid bargaining chip with the Dark Mechanicum. Trade the Speeders for regular maintenance of the more critical requirements. Like Power Armour, Bolters and Ammo.[/QUOTE]
Ok but the Dark Mechanicum should at least try to mantain\duplicate this kind of equipment..so to say,0-1 choice of "warp speeders",or different options for land raiders weaponry,or "relic equipment" similar to chapter relics.
About whole chapters turning traitor,in the new csm book there's about 30 of them listed.[/QUOTE]

Or they'll just keep the best tech for themselves. After all, their toys make pretty tempting targets to the Renegades to just jump in and steal. Best way to avoid that is to keep all the best, shootiest, dakkamost dirty bang bangs to oneself, ready to deploy against anyone that tries to take them away from you.

It's the general lack of logistical support that Renegades suffer from. As a Chapter, you get tithes from your vassal planets, and can freely trade for other, more exotic materials as need be. But, as soon as you go rogue, all that logistical support is lost. In that situation, it makes the most sense to focus what resources you have on the bits you'll need the most (Power Armour, Bolters, Bolt Shells etc) rather than the 'nice to have' stuff like Speeders, Gravguns and so on, because they're not only really hard to maintain, but likely cost an awful lot in resources to keep in good nick.

Add in the aformentioned 'barter' system of long term Heretics, and their inherently superior standing, and you're not going to hold onto anything really pretty for very long.

[daboarder]

It's the general lack of logistical support that Renegades suffer from. As a Chapter, you get tithes from your vassal planets, and can freely trade for other, more exotic materials as need be. But, as soon as you go rogue, all that logistical support is lost. In that situation, it makes the most sense to focus what resources you have on the bits you'll need the most (Power Armour, Bolters, Bolt Shells etc) rather than the 'nice to have' stuff like Speeders, Gravguns and so on, because they're not only really hard to maintain, but likely cost an awful lot in resources to keep in good nick.

Add in the aformentioned 'barter' system of long term Heretics, and their inherently superior standing, and you're not going to hold onto anything really pretty for very long.

going renegade wouldn't mean that chaos chapters no longer have vassal planets, either they hold the ones they have (plenty of support background wise), they opperate the same way a fleet based chapter does (again supported by background) OR if they are forced to run from their support they carve out a new support base the way any self respecting chaos chapter would, not to mention slavery, daemonic pacts and all the other methods of gaining support they now have available.