Shooting and Search Lights....

[BuFFo]

Quick Q that came up for a friend last night during his game, and since I am the go to guy at my store, he came to me, but I didn't know the answer since I play DE normally and I never use the stupid things, and hence never even think about using them with my newer IG....

If you cannot shoot your weapons for whatever reason, like Smoke Launchers, or the vehicle has been damaged somehow, can you still use your Search Lights? Is the Search Light dependent on a weapon firing to be used?

[DarkLink]

Off the top of my head, I'd say you could use the searchlight.

A searchlight itself is not a weapon. It only prevents you from shooting any of the vehicle's weapons. As such, the searchlight itself can still be used after, say, a shaken or stunned result, and you don't worry about sacrificing your shooting like normal, because you can't shoot anyways.

[BuFFo]

Off the top of my head, I'd say you could use the searchlight.

A searchlight itself is not a weapon. It only prevents you from shooting any of the vehicle's weapons. As such, the searchlight itself can still be used after, say, a shaken or stunned result, and you don't worry about sacrificing your shooting like normal, because you can't shoot anyways.

Very simple and to the point!

Thank you very much for your help DarkZelda. :cool:

[Nabterayl]

At least for Imperial Guard (I think you were asking about a Guard situation?), I think the technical answer is no. The IG searchlight rules say that "if a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target." The night fighting rules in turn say, "After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness."

The night fighting rules only allow you to make the spotting check and subsequent distance measuring "before a unit fires," which implies to me that you must be trying to fire a weapon. Otherwise, during night fighting conditions, we could make spotting checks and measure to our hearts' content, even if we didn't intend to fire at any of the targets we were making spotting checks for. That's certainly contrary to the general rule that you can only measure distance to things you've committed to fire at.

Hence, while IG searchlights are not themselves weapons, the codex only gives rules for using them if the owning unit can commit to fire at a target. If the owning unit can't do that for some reason (e.g., smoke), then the searchlight has no rules that allow it to function.

On a purely personal note, I happen to like this result, as I see no reason why a vehicle that can't lay fire on a target should be able to keep a searchlight beam trained on that target. The only circumstance in which I don't like this rule is that it means a model with a searchlight but no gun cannot use the searchlight, which seems stupid to me. Personally, my preferred house rule is to treat the searchlight as a defensive weapon with a special rule that allows it to be fired even in conjunction with Ordnance weapons.

[crazyredpraetorian]

The searchlight is NOT a shooting attack. Therefore, it can always be used, regardless of the status of weapons on the vehicle.

[BuFFo]

Nabterayl...

The question was directed to a Space Marine Rhino with a Search Light, but now that you brought it up, like many seemingly similar situations, what may work in one book might not work in another.

I do have IG, and thank you for taking the time for the extra rules help for my IG. I never use my Search Lights, but, if I ever do, your ruling sounds perfectly fine to me as an IG player! :)

[Nabterayl]

@Crazedredpraetorian:

It's true that searchlights aren't a weapon. However, many searchlight rules (such as space marine and Imperial Guard searchlights) tell you to use the night fighting rules to select a target. The night fighting rules only allow you to pick a target in connection with firing at it. Hence, if you cannot fire at a target, you cannot use the night fighting rules to pick a target, and thus you cannot use the searchlight, because you can only use a searchlight by using the night fighting rules to pick a target.

[crazyredpraetorian]

Nabteray

BRB pg 95 says "a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness." This says nothing about being able to fire. This also would apply to vehicles that are out of range.

[Nabterayl]

It does say "firers," though, and "before a unit fires." It seems to me like that must refer to a unit that is at least trying to, and thus able to, fire. If those sentences don't refer to a unit that is trying to, and thus able to, fire, then aren't they effectively a warrant to pre-measure with impunity during night fighting conditions?

[crazyredpraetorian]

Once again GW's wording is a bit vague. I definitely see your point. However, I think you are reading too much into vague wording.

[Nabterayl]

Fair enough. As I said, the way it's written is not the way I would prefer to play it (which I definitely intend to raise when my group gets our Fortress of Redemption). I do think the best interpretation of the wording, though (at least of the SM and IG versions), is that searchlights add an effect to the night fighting rules - they don't allow you to use the night fighting rules under new circumstances.

[DarkLink]

Off the top of my head, I'd say you could use the searchlight.

A searchlight itself is not a weapon. It only prevents you from shooting any of the vehicle's weapons. As such, the searchlight itself can still be used after, say, a shaken or stunned result, and you don't worry about sacrificing your shooting like normal, because you can't shoot anyways.

*facepalm*

My bad, i just realized that I'm talking about the Smoke Launcher rules, not Searchlight rules:o.

Edit:
There was a similar thread a while back, that I think was about whether you had to actually shoot the unit that was searchlight-ed with the vehicle doing the searchlighting. Might want to dig through that, if someone can find it. I'm too lazy, and finals week is coming up.

[Duke]

Im going to throw in my two cents on this one and say that you can use the searchlight... You are not technically shooting a weapon, so "may not move or shoot," doesn't apply to you. Also in just about every other situation it still wouldn't apply.

And just to have a friendly disagreement with Nab. "Before a unit fires..." I think does not necessarily denote that a unit intends to fire. In many instances ''painting the target" may be the only intent, not firing. I feel that "before a unit fires," is there to notate the place in the shooting phase where this action belongs, not to notate that the unit is firing, or has the intent to fire.

The Gentlemen yields the rest of his time.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Duke - I see that, but it seems like it leads us to consequences so weird that we wouldn't want to adopt that reading. Here's what seems weird to me:

Premise 1 - you aren't allowed to measure the range to a target unless you commit to shooting at it (absent a special rule).

Premise 2 - the IG and space marine searchlights do not tell you to use the night fighting rules in conjunction with them, but rather tell you that when you use the night fighting rules and you have a searchlight, something additional happens. In other words, the searchlight rules do not purport to modify the circumstances in which you can use the night fighting rules.

The night fighting rules themselves say that we can roll 2d6x3" and measure to a unit to compare to the distance we rolled "before a unit fires" Let us suppose that we read "before a unit fires" as "before a unit commits to shooting at a particular target," as you suggest.

By Premise 2, we cannot so read the night fighting rules only when using a searchlight. We must, rather, so read the night fighting rules in all conditions.

It follows then that, during night fighting conditions, a unit could roll 2d6x3" and measure to a unit to compare to the distance rolled, without committing to shoot at it. This would hold true for all units - those with searchlights, and those without. This result contradicts Premise 1, unless we think that the night fighting rules allow us to pre-measure even though day-fighting rules do not, which seems absurd to me.

Disagreement?

[Old_Paladin]

I think I'll chime in on this one. I'm going to side with the 'yes, you can use it group.'

Mostly because:
1] It's not a weapon
2] I don't buy into the 'you must be shooting a weapon to use it.'

The reason for my #2 statement is this, what happens if you get weapon destroyed and still have a seachlight (and don't be stupid and say 'a seachlight cannot be destroyed through weapon detroyed result'). I mean, if you have no weapons left to shoot. For the peope are saying you have to shoot to use the searchlight, but if my rhino lost its only bolter; are you going to back up your logic by bring it to the conclusion that "I cannot shoot if I have nothing to shoot, thus I cannot be a 'firer' and thus can never use the searchlight."

[Nabterayl]

From a RAW standpoint, Old Paladin, if we're talking about a space marine or IG searchlight, yes, I would say that.

As your opponent, would I allow you to use a searchlight even if you had no weapons? Yes, of course.

[DarkLink]

I'm of the opinion that you can choose not to fire any weapons, but still use the searchlight. If you do use the searchlight and choose to fire a weapon, they must be at the same target. Finally, as the searchlight is not a weapon, it may be used even when other weapons may not, such as when shaken or stunned.

[Duke]

Duke - I see that, but it seems like it leads us to consequences so weird that we wouldn't want to adopt that reading. Here's what seems weird to me:

Premise 1 - you aren't allowed to measure the range to a target unless you commit to shooting at it (absent a special rule).

Premise 2 - the IG and space marine searchlights do not tell you to use the night fighting rules in conjunction with them, but rather tell you that when you use the night fighting rules and you have a searchlight, something additional happens. In other words, the searchlight rules do not purport to modify the circumstances in which you can use the night fighting rules.

The night fighting rules themselves say that we can roll 2d6x3" and measure to a unit to compare to the distance we rolled "before a unit fires" Let us suppose that we read "before a unit fires" as "before a unit commits to shooting at a particular target," as you suggest.

By Premise 2, we cannot so read the night fighting rules only when using a searchlight. We must, rather, so read the night fighting rules in all conditions.

It follows then that, during night fighting conditions, a unit could roll 2d6x3" and measure to a unit to compare to the distance rolled, without committing to shoot at it. This would hold true for all units - those with searchlights, and those without. This result contradicts Premise 1, unless we think that the night fighting rules allow us to pre-measure even though day-fighting rules do not, which seems absurd to me.

Disagreement?

Premise one: I agree

Presmise two:
1st paragraph: Agreed
2nd Paragraph: Straw Man fallacy
- My agrument is that it donotes where in the shooting phase this action belongs... I would say that it happenes between the stages of picking a target and firing. As such, I believe that you would not be able to measure and if unsuccessful then fire at an alternative unit, as this would violate the first premise.

Based on my argument. A unit would pick a target, roll as per the night fight rules. If the roll is enough then they may shoot at the preselected target, they may also choose not to shoot at that target as well. If the Roll is not enough then they cannot choose another target because that step is already completed earlier in the shooting phase.

As always I appreciate your points Nab. Always well said and organized, I hope I pay the same respect.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Based on my argument. A unit would pick a target, roll as per the night fight rules. If the roll is enough then they may shoot at the preselected target, they may also choose not to shoot at that target as well. If the Roll is not enough then they cannot choose another target because that step is already completed earlier in the shooting phase.
I think that's a very reasonable way to play the game, and I'd have no problem adopting that as the rule if we ever find ourselves across the table from one another. I'm not convinced it's what's written, though.

Page 15 says that "certain situations prevent a unit from firing," and goes on to describe the most common situations. I think we are all agreed that, though not listed on page 15, Crew Shaken, Crew Stunned, and not having any weapons left are all situations that prevent a unit from firing.

Page 16 then says that "a firing unit can choose a single enemy target ..." and goes on to describe how that is done, when a unit cannot be selected as a target, etc. It seems to me that this is the rule describing how units select targets for shooting attacks, and so this is the rule that the night fighting rules refer us to do when they say "after selecting a target." The trouble I have (from a RAW standpoint, not a play standpoint) with your interpretation is that reading pages 15 and 16 together, it seems to me that a unit may not select a target unless it is a "firing unit," and a unit obviously may not be a "firing unit" if it is affected by a situation that prevents it from firing.

For any latecomers, let me emphasize that I do not think the searchlight rules, as written, are very reasonable. But as I am sure we are all capable of crafting our own house rules to suit our tastes, I am restricting myself to discussing the rule as I see it written.

[Jwolf]

Nabterayl - The searchlight rules used to specify that when a unit with a searchlight shot at a unit, it could then illuminate that unit with it's searchlight. Since it is easier (and not uncommon) to simply cut and copy the old rule, but the rule now definitely does not read this way, I believe you are headed away from the truth.

BuFFo - Searchlights <> weapons, and are not dependent on the firing of any weapons. That's RAW.

[Nabterayl]

JWolf - So, just to make sure I understand you, are you suggesting that the warrant for the searchlight itself to allow target selection lies in the fact that modern searchlights say "must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target" rather than "must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having fired at that unit?"

I see your point, but it seems to me that the plain vanilla night fighting rules themselves don't allow you to pick a target if you can't fire. If a Crew Stunned tank without a searchlight couldn't use the night fighting rules to pick a target, then I don't see how a Crew Stunned tank with a searchlight could use the night fighting rules to pick a target, if it is only told to "still use the night fighting rules to pick a target."

I dislike reading changes in wording as having no effect, but in this case, it seems to me that (again, only technically) if GW's intent was that modern searchlights be usable even when a unit cannot fire, they failed to effect it.

[Jwolf]

Stunned vehicles can still pick targets, Nabterayl. They just can't fire any weapons - no rule prohibits picking targets for moving too fast, being stunned, shaken, or weaponless.

[SeattleDV8]

Nabterayl - The searchlight rules used to specify that when a unit with a searchlight shot at a unit, it could then illuminate that unit with it's searchlight. Since it is easier (and not uncommon) to simply cut and copy the old rule, but the rule now definitely does not read this way, I believe you are headed away from the truth.

BuFFo - Searchlights <> weapons, and are not dependent on the firing of any weapons. That's RAW.

The problem still is that the Night Fighting rules are a sub-set of the Shooting rules.

Some of the older Codex's wording could be a problem, for example Codex : DA pg.55
"....it must use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target but, having hit that unit........"
which could imply a weapon hit is also needed.
The wording in the new SM codex was the same except it changes 'hit' to 'acquired' to show that a unit within sight range is lit up, with or without any other shooting.

[Nabterayl]

Stunned vehicles can still pick targets, Nabterayl. They just can't fire any weapons - no rule prohibits picking targets for moving too fast, being stunned, shaken, or weaponless.
That's true, but the only rule I'm aware of that authorizes picking targets is the one on page 16, which applies only to "firing unit[s]."

[Duke]

Im going to dance with wordplay a bit

Technically if a unit is 'shaken,' or stunned it cannot "Shoot." It does not ever say that it is no longer allowed to fire, so it still goes through all the steps up step 3 "roll to hit," since it cannot shoot it cannot hit. However, it is still a firing unit which cannot shoot.

counter point:
The sequence on Pg. 15 is "The Shooting Sequence," if a unit is shaken or stunned then it cannot "shoot," as per the damage chart. If it cannot shoot then it cannot initiate the shooting sequence, therefore it cannot do step 1 "check line of sight and pick a target," if it cannot pick a target then it cannot point a light beam at anything. So in short if a vehicle is prevented from shooting then it cannot use the searchlight


After reading the rules (who would have thought) I think that the counter point is more logical of a conclusion.... Also if the crew is all shaken and stunned then how in the heck can they use a searchlight "FIre the storm bolter!" "Umm sir I can't cause Im all shook up!" "Ok then point the light at that tank." "YES SIR!"


Duke

[DarkLink]

That's true, but the only rule I'm aware of that authorizes picking targets is the one on page 16, which applies only to "firing unit[s]."

I'd say that searchlight rules also "authorize" you to target other units, if you want to get down to such an abstract level. It's semantics, really, and I don't feel that nitpicky little details like what "authorizes" you to target something is an area that is even covered by the rules, let alone covered clearly enough to make a clear interpretation.