Some CSM feedback

[Trianglebob777]

So I have a few ideas for my Chaos Space Marine army. What do you guys think of the list below? I know dual turkey and plague marine spam is all the rage, but I'm just not a huge fan. So..

Lord
MOK, Axe of Blind Fury, bike, sigil, VOTLW

3 Termies
2x power axe/combi melta
Champ lightning claw/combi melta
+land raider

2x10 man cultist squads
1 boss
1 heavy stubber
8 auto guns

10 CSM
champ- combi melta
7 boys
2 plasma guns
MON

10 CSM
champ- combi melta
7 boys
2 plasma

Bikers
4 bikes
2 plasma bikes
Champ- combi plasma
All have MOK

Heldrake

Forgefiend

3x Obliterators- MON

6 Havocs
4 Autocannons

[Badtucker]

when it comes to small termie units - i think its best you shove a terminator sorceror in with them or something. make it a unit to fear, at least spend the points on it being 5 man.

make your two units of cultists one big unit. it will survive longer and two small units are taking moral pretty quickly.

personally im not a fan of plasma bikes (too many ones ruins an expensive model if it gets hot and fail my save), i prefer flamers and meltaguns - i run my bikes with mark of Khorne too, and the banner is always worth it.

VOTLW is not that great for the Lord as hes fearless, although its good when fighting marines. tricky one. i say dont have it ( unless your opponents are generally marines)

drop the forgefiend if your looking for extra points. and if you can give rhinos to your CSM units, preferably with havok launchers.

[Denzark]

The Lord with that gear, is more effective on a Juggernaut. Not convinced by Havoc launchers as per the previous comment. The cultists will die quick unless you hide them - a 20-man mob if you can fit in a fearless HQ, will give you some sticking power and make sure every single one has to be killed to make them go away.

I tend to view 3 terminators as a suicide unit - but that is at odds with the use of 250 points of LR to get them there - unless you DS them and are merely using them to unlock the LR slot.

[Badtucker]

yeah i love to run a jugger blind fury lord, but run him in a unit of chaos spawn (no mark), thats a hell of a unit that will make it into combat turn two without fail.
I like my havoklaunchers, nothing quite like having that extra ability to pepper the enemy with a S5 blast from a distance. :)

[Katharon]

I've always found that anything less than 5-man squads of CSM Terminators end up dying fast. I don't know why, but they just die...fast.

[DWest]

Unless you're running Ahriman or Huron, I'd say drop the Land Raider. Guaranteed Infiltrate + Land Raider, however, is hilarious, barring melta spam on the other side of the table.

Dropping a basic, no upgrades Lord into a Cultist blob is good for making them stay put, doubly so if you run a Quad Gun or Icarus Las, then you have a BS 5 gunner handy. Might also consider dropping the autoguns, not sure if the handful of 24" shots is worth the price.

Drop the Forgefiend, or swap for a Maulerfiend. The Mauler isn't amazing on its own, but it is fairly effective when charging alongside the bikes. Tau player lining up his one-million-and-twelve dice for Overwatch fire? Stuff the 'fiend in first to lock them up, then jump on with bikes.

[Denzark]

Slightly OT. But on the subject of Cultists with Autoguns. I run a 30 man blob with a Chaos Lord, MoN, the burning brand, Terminator Armour and Blight Grenades. All autoguns with 3 flamers. It is a back line, sit behind your ADL/LoS blocking Terrain unit, on an objective. It is fearless so you need to kill 30 to get a Warlord VP. The Blight Grenades mean you lose your dice for charging. If you charge it without pruning the flamers (all hiding at the back) you get 3d3 Wall of Death and 1D3 from the Burning Brand at AP3. The remnants are autogunners. So even if you kill a third of them, still 40 shots within 12".

It is a thing of beauty. So to link to topic, large mobs of fearless cultists with Autoguns are wicked - H stubbers are a waste because 3 extra S4 shots are not as good as what you get wall of death.

[Trianglebob777]

Overall some interesting ideas and some good feedback. I should have been clear that the Termies are a suicide deepstrike unit. I am a fan of the a chaos Lord on a jugger, but the bikes can turbo boost turn 1 and that I think gives them a great threat range. I might have to look into the swap to flames on the cultists though. A big blob plus a basic lord for fearless is a pretty good idea for a cheap hard to shift unit. Thanks everyone.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i run a lord mok axe bike sigil and no veterans stick him in a unit of bikers they cause havoc for me every single time i use them. they have yet to disappoint me. For what that is worth. Now i am not saying the juger is bad its just well the model is very very ugly and converting one up is an option but that all depends on player skill if they are comfortable with working on a project like that.

[Da Gargoyle]

I watched a game yesterday Eldar V CSM for 1850pts. The Chaos lay out was different, 2 x 20 Khorne Berzerkers, 2 x 20 Terminators, one of which was the war lord, one of the Khornate lords, and 3 Obliterators.

The Eldar fielded 2 x 10 man sqds of Wraith blades 1 with ghost blades, 1 with axes & spirit seer,
5 man sqd wraith guard with d-scyths
a wraith knight,
2 x Wraith Lord sporting Scatter Lasers & flamers,
Dire Avengers,
Guardian sqd with Star Cannon
Wave serpent with TL Star Cannon

I did not see the outcome but the CSM charged across the board and the obliterators took 3 points off the Wraith knight 1st turn. By turn 3 they had occupied a strong point with the Berzerkers and wiped out the guardian sqd in it and lost 4 marines getting there. The other Berzerkers were meandering a bit because the Edar denied them a target but one complete sqd of Terminators went down to fire from the d-scythes and the second lost some to that and more to assault with the ghost blades with minimal casualties back, though the Wraith Knight and Spirit Seer were lost, as much to inexperience as anything, giving the CSM the edge in points. CSM got first kill, warlord and claiming a strong point.

It looked close though, the wraith lords were good support with the wraith blades. And prior to the assault the Dire Avengers caused some havoc with their catapults and blade storming. 6 termies went down prior to the DA assault which set the termies up for assaults by WBs and WL. But the Eldar only had one point from killing a sqd of termies.

From the CSM point of view, the force was used the way it should be. It copped more casualties than he would have liked but the obliterators were moving up slowly and ignored by the Eldare because of what was ahead of them. A good way to use Oblits I think and they took out the Wraith Knight.

And it seems to be quite hard to stop 80 CSMs making contact into assault.

[Filthspew]

I fail to see what is going to be putting the pressure on your opponent and doing the damage.

Bikers hit hard, but small numbers will make them loose their punch quickly. Only the drake can keep up and support them.

Footslugging marines will loose many towards combat, melee or rapid fire, and be a long time getting there. When they do, two squads are just not gonna do that much damage, even without heavy losses. You need many squads, big squads, or rhinos.

DS termies rely on reserve rolls and are unreliable. But combi shooting can make them pay back. They are, as you say, suiciders. Shoot, draw attention and delay what kills them. They wont get the chance to use those axes, will they?

Small havoc unit will roll morale quickly, as will oblits. And considering the cost of those, that is a way bigger concern than cultists running and crying for mummy. Actually, hope they do and celebrate its not your oblits, who will roll morale after a single loss!

The LR is just robbing you blind for two tl lascannons. Get a full Havoc squad with four for exactly the same price. The LR is for delivery, its an overpriced underperformer of a gun platform.

Cultist actually can be in small 10 man units and do well. They are more targets and endure mass destruction (large blasts and and flamers) better, you get two ld8 champs and thats actually not so bad a chance to make morale at. Keep them in reserve and go to objectives in your own deployment zone. Also, a blob means that when they run, and they will, a bigger blob is running.

IMHO, you have some structural issues. Too small units, exept cultists, divided army with shooters in the heavy slots, sluggers that are slow but need to go somewhere and work, and the bikes and drake that rush forward.