Help with Volkite Calivers

[OzDestro]

Hi there,
Pretty sure this is my first post, so firstly - "Hi"!

Look i'm having an issue and I really hope you can help me.
I was reading through the Horus Heresy Book 1 trying (desperately bloody trying) to find out if the Volkite Caliver is the precursor to the Bolter or if the Charger is.

I read the rules and it says the Charger is "Assault" and the Caliver is "Heavy 2".
So if one's assault and one's heavy - what the frakk did Tactical use?

Now i'll be up front and tell you I don't game - I just paint and army build - but I like my units to be accurate!

I like the look of the Caliver and it seems logical that they was the precursor to the Bolter, and the Charger the precursor to the Bolt Pistol.
Right?
The thing is there seems to be no definitive answer.

I turn this over to you, Brothers and Sisters - as honestly - I'm going insane on this!

Thanks so much!

[Wolfshade]

Hello and welcome aboard :D

Volkite types:

Volkite Serpenta - The pistol variant of a Volkite Weapon. (Think akin to your Bolt Pistol)
Volkite Charger - The assault weapon variant of a Volkite Weapon carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the "Storm Bolter" variant and is only found on Terminators)
Vokite Caliver - A Volkite heavy weapon variant carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the standard bolter, carried by legion tactical support)
Volkite Culverin - A Volkite heavy weapon variant carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the "heavy bolter", carried by legion heavy support)
Volkite Carronade - A Volkite heavy weapon variant, mounted on the Glaive Super-Heavy Special Weapons Tank, a variant of the Fellblade.

Or at least this is what I gleamed from looking at where the weapons sit in the FW website.

[Denzark]

I thought someone on here had mentioned that Volkite was the precursor to Grav guns?

[Sitnam]

I beg to differ Wolfshade, it seems tp me that the charger was a infantry weapon amd the caliver a speciak weapon. I gather this from lexicanum and warhammer wiki and I dont havr my book. I do know legion support squads use calivers and the Medusan Immortals of the IH can take chargers in place of bolters

[YorkNecromancer]

Hello there.

There is a definite answer: Volkite technology is nothing to do with Bolter technology. They are two completely different types of weapon; the Bolter uses gyrojets, while the Volkite uses a super-high-tech particle beam.

Volkite weapons disappeared after the Heresy because the knowledge of how to manufacture them was utterly lost, rather than them being a prototype version of the Boltgun.

As for what Tacticals used? They used Bolters and nothing else; the equipping of Tactical Sqauds with special and heavy weapons is a modern conceit largely developed by Roboute Guilliman after the publication of the Codex Astartes. Before the Codex, Tactical marines did not use anything except Bolters, unless they were attached to a specialist Tactical Support Squad (who all carried the same weapon, be that Plasma, Melta, Flamer, or Volkite).

If you read the actual army lists and weapon descriptions in HH: Betrayal, this is all very clear. Volkites are another special weapon type, like Flamers, Grav weapons, Plasma guns, and Melta guns. They are nothing like Bolters, have nothing to do with them, and do not have the slightest aesthetic similarity to them, being loaded with four cylindrical batteries, rather than a clip of gyrojet shells.

As for them being the precursor to Grav weapons, that's incorrect too. The precursor to Grav weapons is Grav weapons, which were different, but available in the Heresy. The closest thing to Volkite weaponry is Necron Tesla weaponry, which has very similar Str, AP, and a very similar special rule.

Volkite are a faded, forgotten tech, that led nowhere, and has no equivelant or 'descendants' in the modern Imperium.

[Wolfshade]

It depends what you mean by precursor. They are certainly technologically far more advanced than the humble bolter, but they were the precusor in terms of "standard armament".

From FW:

'Volkite' is an arcane Mecanicum term referring to a variety of thermal ray weapons of ancient Martian provenance. Once commonplace amongst the Legiones Astartes, demand has outstripped supply and the Terran bolter has superceded the Volkite amongst all but specialist Space Marine units.

So as they are a "thermal ray" weapon, perhaps they are more akin to the melta weaponry?

[YorkNecromancer]

They are certainly technologically far more advanced than the humble bolter, but they were the precusor in terms of "standard armament".


They were never a 'standard' armament; the army lists make that quite clear. Volkite weaponry is unavailable to any squads type except Tactical Support and Heavy Weapons. They were clearly specialist equipment (and their description in the book makes this clear - they were hard to produce, and their high costs of production restricted their dispersal through the Legions).

The Bolter has always been the only 'standard issue' Marine weapon.


So as they are a "thermal ray" weapon, perhaps they are more akin to the melta weaponry?

No. They're something completely different. Volkite weaponry has no modern equivalent, apart from Necron Tesla technology.

[Wolfshade]

Sitnam: yes you are quite right, I was confused as they are listed in the "Legion Terminator Squad" section, the description is quite clear:


To build a Legion Tactical Support Squad, using the rules in Betrayal, combine these [Volkite Charger] weapon sets with our MkII, MkIII and MkIV Space Marine armour sets, and MkII, MkIII and MkIV Legion armour sets.

York: Yup you are quite right, I was confusing myself in terms of "standard" armament. It was standard in the same way that flamers/meltas etc are "standard". Even the Thunder Warriors had boltguns of discription.

[AirHorse]

From what I read in hh:betrayal(and I wolfshade quoted it) the impression I got was that at the beginning of the legiones astares, when they were much smaller, they were standard issue. But as they grew the complex manufacturing process meant the bolter became that standard weapon.

The thing you have to remember about the HH army lists is that they are for the legions at the point the heresy began. Which is several centuries into the operations of the legions!!

Definitely agree that there doesn't seem to be a modern equivalent to the volkite though!

[Houghten]

I was confusing myself in terms of "standard" armament. It was standard in the same way that flamers/meltas etc are "standard". Even the Thunder Warriors had boltguns of discription.

Except then why does it say they have been superseded by the Terran bolter?

Edit: AirHorse puts it better than I can.


Even the Thunder Warriors had boltguns of discription.
Well, of course they did. The Thunder Warriors were just for Unification and hadn't reached Mars - how would they get any Volkite weapons?

[Wolfshade]

I have no idea any more, I need to re-read HH:1

[Haighus]

There are other units that can use Volkite weapons- the entire legion tactical veteran squad can be equipped with the volkite serpenta (pistol volkite variant). The way I see it, and the way it is put in Betrayal, is that at the beginning of the great crusade (which is NOT what the legion list in Betrayal is meant to represent) volkite weapons were far more common in the legions and used much more widely as an infantry weapon, but became relegated to special weapon duty as the demand outstripped supply in all but veteran units, which get the pick of the armoury (and in some cases probably still have their volkite weapons from the beginning of the Great Crusade). Examples being terminators and veteran tacticals.

I think they are described somewhere (I have no source for this, I believe it was stated by FW themselves somewhere in an unofficial capacity) that volkite weapons are actually microwave guns. So actually just simply cook their target, hence the rule for exploding models that take a wound. Quite nasty, seeing as microwaves cook a target from the inside. So yeah, they are similar in basic function to meltas and lasers, but a different type of radiation.

[OzDestro]

Hi guys, I really appreciate your help here and the knowledge that I'm not the only one confused.
I think this issue is that the HH1 Book doesn't really mention them, but does the Charger and the Serpenta.

YorkNecromancer, I get your point, thank you:


As for what Tacticals used? They used Bolters and nothing else; the equipping of Tactical Sqauds with special and heavy weapons is a modern conceit largely developed by Roboute Guilliman after the publication of the Codex Astartes. Before the Codex, Tactical marines did not use anything except Bolters, unless they were attached to a specialist Tactical Support Squad (who all carried the same weapon, be that Plasma, Melta, Flamer, or Volkite).
If you read the actual army lists and weapon descriptions in HH: Betrayal, this is all very clear. Volkites are another special weapon type, like Flamers, Grav weapons, Plasma guns, and Melta guns. They are nothing like Bolters, have nothing to do with them, and do not have the slightest aesthetic similarity to them, being loaded with four cylindrical batteries, rather than a clip of gyrojet shells.

I'm just not sure it's right - if you look at the Wiki it says:
"A Volkite Weapon is an arcane term used by the Adeptus Mechanicus (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus) to refer to a class of powerful thermal ray weapons whose technology is pre-Imperial in origin and dates back to the Age of Strife (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Strife)...
... Unfortunately, Volkite Weapons of the various types were difficult to manufacture, even for the most able of the Mechanicum (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Mechanicum)'s forges, and the demands of the expanding Great Crusade (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Crusade) in the late 30th Millennium swiftly overwhelmed the supply of these relic-weapons. Once relatively common within the fledgling Space Marine Legions (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legions), Volkite Weapons had fallen largely from favour by the time theHorus Heresy (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy) began in the early 31st Millennium and had been superseded by the far more flexible and utilitarian Terran (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terra) Bolter (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter)."

So the Volkite weaponry was common in the 30k universe (and before) - I'm just wondering if leaving the Caliver out of HH1 was an oversight and they meant it to be there as an option instead of Bolters.

Again, thank you all for your input - I would love to get any more ideas on this as I am now painting up both the Chargers and the Calivers to put on my War Hounds marines.

[OzDestro]

"Volkite Serpenta - The pistol variant of a Volkite Weapon. (Think akin to your Bolt Pistol)
Volkite Charger - The assault weapon variant of a Volkite Weapon carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the "Storm Bolter" variant and is only found on Terminators)
Vokite Caliver - A Volkite heavy weapon variant carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the standard bolter, carried by legion tactical support)
Volkite Culverin - A Volkite heavy weapon variant carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the "heavy bolter", carried by legion heavy support)
Volkite Carronade - A Volkite heavy weapon variant, mounted on the Glaive Super-Heavy Special Weapons Tank, a variant of the Fellblade."

Thanks Wolfshade - this is what I thought too!

Much appreciated!

[YorkNecromancer]

I get the feeling that's just some flavour text. Maybe post-unification wars, pre-Legion formation, Volkite was more common. I am absolutely certain there was never any plan to make Volkite standard issue for Tactical marines; there's absolutely no precedent for that in any of the HH artwork I know of.

I always had this theory that 40K is canon with Star Trek; that the Imperium is what the Federation turns into, and the Dark Age of Technology is essentially Federation-era space.

If so, Volkite weapons=phasers, which makes a lot of sense...

[OzDestro]

Thanks YorkNecromancer - This is a cool theory!
I have some clarification from Forge World now BTW - see the link in my next post!

[OzDestro]

Hey guys (and girls if you're out there!)
I spoke to Forge World and initially had a response I wasn't sure about -but I now have further clarification on Volkite weapons in Tactical Squads.

http://www.ozdestro.com/3/post/2013/12/volkite-calivers-in-tactical-squads-forgeworld-response.html

So it "seems possible" that the Tactical Squads may have used Volkite weapons as standard in the Crusade era, it's just that Forge World don't have a list for it so they can't comment.
So in the world of fluff which hasn't been explored fully (and why would that era be explored really?) there is no definitive answer.

Thanks to the Forge World team for answering a question on an era they don't even service.

[Haighus]

Volkite types:

Volkite Serpenta - The pistol variant of a Volkite Weapon. (Think akin to your Bolt Pistol)
Volkite Charger - The assault weapon variant of a Volkite Weapon carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the "Storm Bolter" variant and is only found on Terminators)
Vokite Caliver - A Volkite heavy weapon variant carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the standard bolter, carried by legion tactical support)
Volkite Culverin - A Volkite heavy weapon variant carried by Space Marine infantry. (This is the "heavy bolter", carried by legion heavy support)
Volkite Carronade - A Volkite heavy weapon variant, mounted on the Glaive Super-Heavy Special Weapons Tank, a variant of the Fellblade.

Or at least this is what I gleamed from looking at where the weapons sit in the FW website.

Personally, I would say the charger would be the standard issue weapon, not the caliver. The caliver is a heavier weapon, I would have thought a unit equipped with volkite weapons would be armed with chargers, with maybe a special weapon with a caliver and a heavy with a culverin. Space marines are very much about mobility, and a unit equipped with chargers would far more fit that idea IMO.

Also, volkite chargers are not just found in terminator squads- Legion veteran tacticals, artificer armoured command squads, and artificer/power armoured HQ's can also take them, as well as apothecaries, techmarines and breacher siege squads. It is usually listed in the same way as bolters and combi-bolters as an option, which is why I would say it is the infantry standard for volkite weaponry.

[OzDestro]

Really good point, Haighus.

[Wolfshade]

Also, volkite chargers are not just found in terminator squads- Legion veteran tacticals, artificer armoured command squads, and artificer/power armoured HQ's can also take them, as well as apothecaries, techmarines and breacher siege squads. It is usually listed in the same way as bolters and combi-bolters as an option, which is why I would say it is the infantry standard for volkite weaponry.

Yup, yup see post #8 :)