Wraithcannon or D-Scythe?

[YorkNecromancer]

I am building a unit of 10 Wraithguard as allies for my Dark Eldar. They will sit on objectives, and use their high Toughness and Armour to survive. They aren't for anti-infantry or anti-tank; they're there to hold objectives, and so need to deal with anything that'll knock them off said objectives.

So: do I go with D-Scythes, which will provide horribly effective anti-infantry devastation when the infantry come to take the objective? Or Wraithcannon, which are so damn good they would be the auto-take, apart from their horrid lack of range?

At the moment, I'm leaning towards D-Scythes. Str 4, AP2, Ignores Cover, and D3x10 autohits on any assaulting unit just seems too good to turn down.

But Wraithcannon are Str10, AP2. That's just so damn good, even with a total lack of range.

What do we think?

[Tyrendian]

to be honest, I would not use them that way at all... they are just way way too expensive; you are pretty much wasting something like a fifth of your army on one objective (of six - or none at all if the mission is the wrong one!).

But if you want to park them somewhere, I'd go with D-Scythes because those make them virtually unchargable for anything that isn't a Screamerstar, and the range is only a few inches shorter.

[chicop76]

I would go with d-scythes over the cannon in this situation. The scythes allow the unit to easily claim objectives and make the unit rather hard to assault out. If they are assaulted that assaulting unit can potentially be wiped out. Through in the spiritseer which can give them good cover saves or a possible plus two armour save they can be hard to route out. Heck they can possibly have both the good cover and the better save if you lucky.

The d-scthes put out more wounds which if you would a MC with out eternal warrior it can die to instant death which can easily happen if the MC assaults that unit.

I really don't see any real drawbacks besides units like dreadnoughts or soulgrinders.

I would say since you are using DE it is save to say you are probably will be using a decent amount of dark lances to deal with armour and the extra anti armour isn't really needed. For the most part the sycthes cover more possibilities than the cannons would.

[chicop76]

to be honest, I would not use them that way at all... they are just way way too expensive; you are pretty much wasting something like a fifth of your army on one objective (of six - or none at all if the mission is the wrong one!).

But if you want to park them somewhere, I'd go with D-Scythes because those make them virtually unchargable for anything that isn't a Screamerstar, and the range is only a few inches shorter.

I agree. Me personally I would let them sit on the objective and deal with the rest of his army. When units start to get into 400 pts and up they get the ignore tag. Games like the relic would be interesting since it would be a game on who can take the relic the quickist. However other type games you can elect to avoid a unit like that and deal with other threats.

Now 2 units of wraithguard is actually a problem akin to facing 2 units of Palladians. You can't really ignore 2 units as much as you can with one big unit. The problem with two is the spiritseer can only join one of the two units.

[Sly]

I think that DE struggle with having Troops that can advance and take forward objectives, which is where Wraithguard come in. Using them with the Wraithcannon can also replace Blaster Trueborn. I would run them with Wraithcannon and advance, and keep the DE troops behind an Aegis line to hold rear objectives.

[davel]

If your after a tough unit to sit objectives why not go with shield axe wraith blades

[chicop76]

If your after a tough unit to sit objectives why not go with shield axe wraith blades

What good is that???

The problem is most people shoot off objectives. The invulnerable is helpful vs plasma and grav guns, but not against general shooting. Also you have to assault which you have no assault vehicles. Which means your best option for them is to sit on an objective. Which people would just shoot them off. Not to mention if they assault they can be leaving the objective.

If they was good as other stuff in combat than I would say yes. However i can think of cheaper or same costed units which would beat that unit hands down or give it a good fight. It's an average combat unit which makes the shooting options more desirable.

Poison gaunts, daemonettes, paladins, storm shield terminators, harlequins, genestealers, rough riders, etc . Can give combat wraithguard a hard time.

[origami]

What good is that???

The problem is most people shoot off objectives. The invulnerable is helpful vs plasma and grav guns, but not against general shooting. Also you have to assault which you have no assault vehicles. Which means your best option for them is to sit on an objective. Which people would just shoot them off. Not to mention if they assault they can be leaving the objective.

If they was good as other stuff in combat than I would say yes. However i can think of cheaper or same costed units which would beat that unit hands down or give it a good fight. It's an average combat unit which makes the shooting options more desirable.

Poison gaunts, daemonettes, paladins, storm shield terminators, harlequins, genestealers, rough riders, etc . Can give combat wraithguard a hard time.

Every point you bring up can also be said of wraithguard in general. You have to be within 12" to get a shot off with them, so it's assumed a unit is moving in for the objective. If you're worried about being shot off the objective from a distance then wraiths aren't the way to go anyway.

[chicop76]

Every point you bring up can also be said of wraithguard in general. You have to be within 12" to get a shot off with them, so it's assumed a unit is moving in for the objective. If you're worried about being shot off the objective from a distance then wraiths aren't the way to go anyway.

The huge difference is for starters the d-scythe unit can jump out and burn a unit off an objective. Thus claiming in early with no other units around, early in turn one or two. You can't assault them off due to the d3 ap 2 flame attacks that can cause instant death on a 6. If you get within rapid fire range and shoot at the guard and they survive they can easily shoot back and wipe out your unit while still staying on the objective.

If you look at the wraithguard guys they can shoot off MCs and really hard to kill models like paladins.

The problem with the combat guard. Is when they jump out of a serpent they can't do anything, but get shot or assaulted. You have to wait till next turn to really be able to do something. Also you fall victim to over watch, failing assaults due to bad assault roles, and simply not the best assault unit.

Out the 4 different guard options the d scythe unit can jump out of a serpent, easily wipe out most scoring units, I use to run flamers of tzeentch and 3 of them wiped out units, actually these guys are a bit better since they would t3 models on 3s and can insta kill.

Not saying that wraithgun toting wraith guard are bad. Just looking at what units I would burn off an objective and typically a big MC is not the one that really is there trying to claim it, while a 10 man squad or 30 man squad is typically camping on the objective.

Biggest difference is the two other shooting guard units can do something besides sit there and get shot at. I have to double check, but the wraithguns are 18" which is a 24" threat range which shouldn't be overlooked, meaning good chance if a typical person shoots them they are getting shot back. Although a possible 15" threat range with the flamers is not at all long range.

Long story short. No one in their right minds would assault d sythe guard, unless they have a really huge unit or they assaulting with multiple units.

Your point is valid if you are shooting outside of 24". If you are resorting to that tactic. Unless you are an army like eldar your ideal wasn't to claim the objective anyway.

I have to look at the list again, but a cover denial anti horde unit balance s out what he have since most of his stuff is poison or lance, meaning d gun guard is just more over kill and he probably have a better combat option with de who can assault out of their trasports.

[chicop76]

My bad. Tau Fusion gun got boosted to 18". Anyway the wraithguard can possibly hit a target 18" away.

Again you can't say the same since armies like daemons and nids have to engage the guard off an objective. If they do they could get wiped out by doing so.

[origami]

I thought he said he was going to have them sit on back objectives, so I wasn't thinking in terms of taking an objective from anything else. Looking through it again I didn't see that. If they're moving forward for objectives then I agree that wraithblades aren't your best bet.

[chicop76]

You're right. I forgot he just wanted them to sit there. I keep thinking on how I would use them in a serpent.

That being said I would repeat what I said earlier I would just flat out ignore that unit. He should break them down in 2 units. That's why I like marine terminators which have that option to be a squad of ten or two squads of five.

Still would say d scythe though. Since 4" less than a cannon is not a huge difference.

Although having 4 plus invulnerable saves isn't a bad option to have to just sit there.

I don't know really. The more I think about it I would stay in rapid fire range and force the unit to assault me, or stay ouy of the other two range of fire and blast away. Depending on what else is in the eldar army and what army I am playing and the scenario would determine if I ignore them or blast them away.

For example my Tau would easily blow away that unit. With 3 railgun shots, 2 ion guns, 6 tau sniper, 6 melta and 6 seeker missiles I can easily wipe out that unit in one turn, good luck with cover saves. The only reason I wouldn't shoot them dead is due to other threats that can actually hurt me, like a wraithknight or damn wave serpents. In the end they would be ignored unless it's capture the relic and they have the relic.

[Garradh]

I consider holding an objective with Wraiths of any type, Guard or Blades, to be a waste. They are an offensive unit. They can wander into a lot of bullets without taking heavy casualties. They're formidable in assault, even without power weapons. They have some of the strongest short-range shooting of any infantry in the game. They are a unit that is designed, top to bottom, to cross a field, close with and destroy the enemy.

[Da Gargoyle]

I just posted on a thread about a game I watched yesterday CSM v Eldar. A unit of Wraith Guard toasted a unit of Terminators with D-Scythe. A 20 man unit of terminators charged across the board, lost five in the first turn to star cannon shots and then a few more plus all but two in the second round because the D-Scythe got into range. Your Wraith Cannon would not cause that many casualties because each one hits only one target. Use something else for anti armour from your Dark Eldar. The whole thing is mutual support anyway, especially DE and E. And unles your objective is in cover I would not be camping on it early in the game. Talk about fire magnet.