Question regarding walker being assaulted by unit that cant hurt it

[krispy]

so i played last night and im a bit unsure if this was right.....so heres what happened

my ironclad was charged and bogged down by a bunch of daemonettes
ironclad -> AV 13
Daemonettes strength 3

the daemonettes could not actually hurt my dread but charged it anyway (i argued against it but their player argued and i folded cos it was wasting time)

it tarpitted my dread and wasted my turns while he had to plinked away for 3 turns killing them one or two at a time per round of CC

the rulebook says a unit cant charge a vehicle it cant damage (or something to that effect) so should this not have stopped the initial charge?

and furthermore - if my walker had charged then they could have done a "our weapons are useless" and scarpered which again seems odd no?

according to the fluff dreads are badass and i think it should have been able to just walk away or not be locked in combat, its flamers and stuff was all wasted there.

so any suggestions corrections or explanations on this? or did we do it right?

thanks
/k

[david5th]

Main rulebook - Pg 76 - "However, a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt - it must have some possibility, no matter how small, of being vale to inflict at least a glancing hit."

They shouldn't have charged it. Even with rending they couldn't have hurt it unless it was immobilised.

If you had charged they could have chosen to fail it morale check for Our Weapons Are Useless.

[DWest]

Daemonettes *can* hurt an Ironclad -- they have the Rending rule, as part of being a Daemon of Slannesh. So there is a chance, however small (Str 3 + To-pen 6 + d3 of 3 = 13) of being able to inflict Glancing hits.

[Wolfshade]

3 + 6 + 3 = 12,

S3 + D6 Pen + D3 Rend

Where is your extra 1 coming from?

[DWest]

That's . . . a good question. My apologies, I can't math today apparently.

[Wolfshade]

No, I didn't know if I was missing something? You know like using a previous edition rules as they seemed similiar when I skimmed them.

[Mr Mystery]

And lo, your opponent did ignore one of the best rules changes in 40k ever.

[Katharon]

I can't remember where the FAQ is on this, but there is one that mentioned the fact that you can charge for one turn at something that you cannot physically hurt, but that you could not lock that target in combat for successive rounds.

[krispy]

so he should not have been able to charge my ironclad and tarpit it for 3 rounds - this is what lost the game as it was unable to attack his lord of change who only had one wound left :P

i will remember this

thanks all

/k

[Mr Mystery]

I can't remember where the FAQ is on this, but there is one that mentioned the fact that you can charge for one turn at something that you cannot physically hurt, but that you could not lock that target in combat for successive rounds.

Not familiar with that one skip. Also sounds completely contrary to the original rule, suggesting to be an offical eratta rather than an FAQ, as it has fundamentally changed the rule rather than clarified.

You're not thinking of what happens when you're charged by the invincible beast are you?

[Wolfshade]

Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.

There we go, FAQ.

You can charge an enemy that you can't hurt, I suppose the reason for that is if you want to mitigate them being able to charge you next turn? Or remove attack bonuses. IDK.

But it seems strange, the walker is charged by the Daemonettes. The Daemonettes can't damage the Dread, the dread attacks back, more than likely winning the combat, possibly forcing a morale check (ICR if they are Fearless or no). The next turn, the Dread can disenage if he so wishes as he cannot be locked in CC with a unit that can't hurt it.

Sounds about right?

[Katharon]

You're not thinking of what happens when you're charged by the invincible beast are you?

Don't think I am. I'll have to run through the BRB again and the FAQs. I'll get back to you. I *know* I heard it somewhere.

[Katharon]

There we go, FAQ.

You can charge an enemy that you can't hurt, I suppose the reason for that is if you want to mitigate them being able to charge you next turn? Or remove attack bonuses. IDK.

But it seems strange, the walker is charged by the Daemonettes. The Daemonettes can't damage the Dread, the dread attacks back, more than likely winning the combat, possibly forcing a morale check (ICR if they are Fearless or no). The next turn, the Dread can disenage if he so wishes as he cannot be locked in CC with a unit that can't hurt it.

Sounds about right?

Yup. That's what I remember. Also, I've seen a few guys pull this maneuver in game videos on MWG.

[Sly]

The next turn, the Dread can disenage if he so wishes as he cannot be locked in CC with a unit that can't hurt it.

Sounds about right?

Vehicles are not locked in combat, but Walkers are.

[Wolfshade]

Vehicles are not locked in combat, but Walkers are.
I was thinking of the our weapons are useless rule, but it is only for the weaker unit.

Ah Ha!

Right, the FAQ relates to the rules on pg.20 hence the reference. So you can assault a unit you can not hurt, generally.
Now assaulting vehicles, which a walker is, is a special case so we go to pg.76. That page says you cannot assault a vehicle you cannot hurt.

So, the Walker cannot be assaulted because the unit cannot hurt the vehicle.

Had they had a plus 1 strength bonus on the charge they could assault the vehicle in round one, but no subsequently. So they could then in the subsequent round they could use rule p26 Our Weapons Are Useless Rule to try and disengage.

It does seem strange that the weaker unit can choose to disengage from the stronger, but the stronger can't choose to ingnore them.

[SacredChao]

It is true that they could not charge in the first place, but a Daemonette cannot use "Our Weapons Are Useless" because of Daemonic Instability. They always automatically pass Morale Tests, even in combat, instead they have a special rule that causes more casualties. Daemon's never fall back. Not even with Terrify ;p

[His_Dudeness]

I think the main reason to keep you from charging vehicles you can't hurt is so you can't gain extra movement. Daemonettes charge a landraider to get that much closer with no overwatch worries. Works for dreads though too.

[Wolfshade]

Only they can't do it as they cannot charge things they can't at least glance, so the rules make sense. Though it would be good for the stronger unit to choose to disengage..

[krispy]

Only they can't do it as they cannot charge things they can't at least glance, so the rules make sense. Though it would be good for the stronger unit to choose to disengage..

my point exactly the dread should have a "your weapons are worthless" rule or something similar so they can just disengage - it would also be more fluffy as the dread could jsut stomp them and not be locked in combat

also - on a side note - whats the point of heavy flamers on dreads if you cant use them in CC with said dread? im sure i saw a cgi of a dread grabbing an ork and flaming it - cant find it now but that kinda is what i want my dread to be able to do.

thanks again for the discussion guys

/k

[Wolfshade]

That cgi is from the intro to Dawn of War, the pc video game.

[chicop76]

Interesting. I will have to look at this one since it is something I would do. However since I have a herald or alluress with the squad which means one of the nettes would be strength 5/4 it wouldn't apply to me anyway.

However I do remember reading somewhere in the FAQ you can assault vehicles if you can't hurt it. Being a walker you should be able to tie it in combat unlike a regular vehicle.

Also assaulting a LOC with one wound would had been iffy anyways. You are looking at around 3 smash attacks at higher ws and I before you can strike it. If it had the psykic power to re roll hits and wounds than my money would had been on the LOC. Also assuming it didn't have a re rollable invulnerable save. With all that said if you survived the attacks you could had probably killed it, if yoi didn't kill it in that assault phase the LOC would had easily killed you in the next which meant you really couldn't tie it up as well.

[Wolfshade]

However I do remember reading somewhere in the FAQ you can assault vehicles if you can't hurt it. Being a walker you should be able to tie it in combat unlike a regular vehicle.

The FAQ is regarding p20 (You can assault units you cannot injury), wheras the rules dissalowing assault against vehicles you can't glance is p76 (you cannot assault a vehicle you cannot glance).

What is a LOC?

[chicop76]

Just opened my book.

Pg. 84 under Walkers and Assaults

" ... meaning that they make charge moves and can be locked in combat. Walkers locked in combat can't be shot at"

Pg. 76 under assaulting a vehicle

"... can not charge a vehicle that it can not hurt.."

Unless I can see it in the FAQ. Daemonettes can't assault vehicles, if they could they can tie up the dread, which I do all the time and would had done as well. Grant it I am used to assaulting things I can glance to death.

[chicop76]

The FAQ is regarding p20 (You can assault units you cannot injury), wheras the rules dissalowing assault against vehicles you can't glance is p76 (you cannot assault a vehicle you cannot glance).

What is a LOC?

I thought you said you wanted to assault his Lord of Change with the Iron Clad.

I see the Faq reference in the forum. I just do not see it in the FAQ. What I see so far is the dread couldn't be assaulted. Thanks to this thread I realize I will always take the Alluress upgrade, so this won't be a problem for me. It would mean I can assault anny vehicle, but armour 14.

[Wolfshade]

Ah I see. No idea where LOC came from.

And huzzah a thread helped someone!

[Lord Krungharr]

Hmmm, that FAQ does NOT mention assaulting units one cannot "injure". It says one can assault units that one cannot hurt. Does Page 20 of the main rulebook specifically talk about non-vehicle models that have wounds? My rulebook isn't with me right now. If so, then I guess that page 76? can't assault vehicles you can't glance does make D'ettes not able to charge the IronClad. If the D'ettes had a Champion with a Herald of Slaanesh, then yes they could've charged it legally, as those are S4 I think (with Rending of course).

But that would nix my cheapo anti-Titan tactic of running up barebones Flesh Hounds or Screamers to tie them up. Rats!

[Wolfshade]

No it specifically does not however:


...
Right, the FAQ relates to the rules on pg.20 hence the reference. So you can assault a unit you can not hurt, generally.
Now assaulting vehicles, which a walker is, is a special case so we go to pg.76. That page says you cannot assault a vehicle you cannot hurt.

So, the Walker cannot be assaulted because the unit cannot hurt the vehicle.
...


So we have to cases the "normal" assault case as in page 20, then the speciail rules for assaulting vehicles as on page 76.