Deamon and CSM Allies Question

[His_Dudeness]

So say I make a Chaos Deamon list with CSM allies (or vice versa) can heralds join units of CSM deamons? Tzeentch olbits with ignore cover anyone? Add shrouded from a Nurgle herald maybe....


Or when they state "Deamons" are they only referring to those in the C:CD?

[Nabterayl]

That's ... actually a really good question. Is a model that has the Daemon rule and the Mark of Tzeentch "of the same alignment" as a model that has the "Daemon of Tzeentch" rule?

I can't find any FAQs on point - can anybody else?

In the absence of FAQ, I'm tentatively inclined to say yes, because "of the same alignment" seems broader to me than "with the same Daemon of X rule." But from the FAQs I can (well, can't) find and the wording of the codex itself, I think this one is very close to not having a rules-based resolution.

[daboarder]

That's ... actually a really good question. Is a model that has the Daemon rule and the Mark of Tzeentch "of the same alignment" as a model that has the "Daemon of Tzeentch" rule?

I can't find any FAQs on point - can anybody else?

In the absence of FAQ, I'm tentatively inclined to say yes, because "of the same alignment" seems broader to me than "with the same Daemon of X rule." But from the FAQs I can (well, can't) find and the wording of the codex itself, I think this one is very close to not having a rules-based resolution.


its a no, for two reasons.

daemon of the same alignment is a question looking for the text...daemon of (god)

secondly they have this rule to prevent awkward situation occurring where part of a unit has instability and part of a unit doesn't.

oh and **** chaos, never forget that one.

[DarkLink]

Mark of X and daemon of X are two different things.

[nurglez]

So strictly speaking, the only daemon that could join from the chaos marine dex is a daemon prince, which cant join squads because its a single MC... Pretty sure it worked like this, yay go mad for the only battle brother to chaos (apart from black legion), and you cant join their squads...

[Lord Krungharr]

Have Daemons ever been able to be joined by CSM ICs, or vice versa? It certainly would be nice to have that, but fluff wise I think it makes perfect sense. Daemons have so much contempt for mortals they wouldn't want to bother commanding or being commanded by them. But they can still benefit from Warlord Traits, like Abaddon's Preferred Enemy within 12", or Huron Blackheart's Infiltration trait. Those are both very good.

[SacredChao]

While daboarder and DarkLink do bring up what is probably the crux of the issue, it is noted that "alignment" is never defined in the CSM or Daemon codex as being "Daemon of X". Since Mark and Daemon-of are called out elsewhere in the book as having same effects (icons + instruments), without having a proper definition you could possibly be right in assuming that Mark of Tzeentch is the same alignment as Daemon of Tzeentch....

That being said, the main issue is with Daemonic Instability. There is no real way to reconcile that rule with normal morale checks. If one model has Daemonic Instability, and another model does not in the same unit, what happens? The answer for RAI is probably in Daemonic instability when they tell you that non-Daemonic Instability models cannot join Daemonic Instability units.

They don't say you can't do the reverse, but it's pretty clear they don't want you to do that.

Which is too bad, Herald of Tzeentch or Nurgle with Obliterators would be fun :D

And to daboarder's last point: Chaos Rulez!

[chicop76]

They are right. The daemon book specifically says Daemon of ....... can only join Daemon of ......, While CSM have Marks of ....... I can give out the page number in ghe Daemon book that says that. Although it's before the detailed unit section. The very first page that goes into army rules after the fluff section.

What is sad that the CSM daemon units have marks :(, like oblits which doesn't count as a Daemon of ........

[daboarder]

eh I'm good with my T5 oblits, far better than shrouding would be.

[chicop76]

eh I'm good with my T5 oblits, far better than shrouding would be.

Yeah, but than the tally would work with them again and nurgle heralds could join them for example. Bad enough the can have 2 plus invulnerable saves with that toughness of five.