Picking an army for the holidays; can't decide... [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Aristocrap

11-30-2009, 07:16 PM

So I've been leaning back and forth between Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle. I wanted to start one of these armies around Christmas time, so I could potentially rack up models as gifts. However, I just don't know which army to choose! I've made quite solid lists for both, and I've studied the Codex of each from cover to cover. Additionally, the army I choose will techically be my first army for 5th Ed.

Why I like IG:
-Armor, armor, and more armor: Mounting everything in Chimeras supported by Vendettas, HHs, and Demolishers sounds too good to pass up.

-Firepower: The Guard can dish out a ton of firepower each turn; all those lasguns are bound to kill something! AT weapons fired in bulk can really put a hurt on enemy armor.

-The look/fluff: I really like the military theme of the IG, and the endless camo patterns or color schemes one can use really enhances their visuals. Plus, there are thousands upon thousands of regiments and creating your own fluff, color scheme, and appearance is a lot of fun.

Why I like SoB:
-The theme/look: For some reason, the idea of power armored female battle nuns is quite fascinating. I like the look of the models decorated with purity seals, icons, Inquisitorial and Sororitas imagery. A whole army that's painted well could look very imposing on the tabletop! And perhaps their ties with the Inquisition makes me like them even more.

-The story: I immensley enjoyed reading pages 4 through 6 of the Codex; learning about the rise of the Ordo Hereticus and the Sororitas. I'm a big fan of the Inquisition; this branch in particular.

-Playstyle: Upon studying the way the SoB handle, I feel their playstyle is relativley easy to get a hang of, more so than Eldar, Tau, or maybe even SM. (at least for me)

doublek666

11-30-2009, 08:43 PM

You have two really cool armies in mind, in fact I have also collected models for both armies. I have't actually finished those. I just need to add some tanks and planes to my IG infantry of over 100 models of various types. I have spent about 600$ putting together my sisters(pure sisters is the most competetive build, if that matters). I have recently read FAITH and FIRE novel about Sisters, very cool book.

Both armies are expensive. Even on ebay the sisters( I now have 2 Immolators, 2 Exorcists, 4 rhinos and enough sisters for 4 squads, including various sister superior models, a cannoness, living saint and 10 Seraphim, and enough for some celestians or maybe dominions) are expensive, but still fairly easy to find. And all you need to do is figure out you color scheme, and go! The guard will require some serious thought about themes, color and composition, but is more flexible, easier to find(especially in the stores, or official website). Could also be a lot of models to buy, build and paint.

I decided to finish buying my Sisters, and get that built, while the models are still easy to get, someday will be a lot harder and even more expensive to get these same METAL MODELS! The Imperial guard codex is fairly new, so the models will be around for years and easy to find good deals.

Melissia

11-30-2009, 08:45 PM

You can collect both of them and use them in the same army if you want. Check the Allies and Induction rules in C:WH.

Aristocrap

11-30-2009, 08:58 PM

You can collect both of them and use them in the same army if you want. Check the Allies and Induction rules in C:WH.
That's probably what I'll do. I think I'll use Guard as the primary army, then add Sororitas units as I see fit to give it more "oomph" and fill in cracks. I am somewhat worried about the price of a combined arms list.

On a second thought, I've always had my eye on Eldar. Emperor knows why, but I take a liking to these xenos. I find them to be a versatile and flavorful army, challenging, but rewarding. I do have their Codex as well. Maybe it's also because the best painted model I've done is an Eldar Farseer.

BuFFo

11-30-2009, 10:52 PM

On a second thought, I've always had my eye on Eldar. Emperor knows why, but I take a liking to these xenos. I find them to be a versatile and flavorful army, challenging, but rewarding. I do have their Codex as well. Maybe it's also because the best painted model I've done is an Eldar Farseer.

No bah! Stay away from the xenos scum!

Just buy both IG and Sisters. With both armies, you actually have more than two since you can combine them.

Start with a good IG base first, then get sisters to add on as allies, and before you know it, you'll have two stand alone armies!

DarkLink

11-30-2009, 11:29 PM

Yeah, I'd suggest starting IG, then picking up two 10-Sister squads and a cannoness, and allying them into your list. From there, add Sisters/IG units as you see fit.

If playing an IG army, you can take:
0-1 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 0-2 Troops and 0-1 FA choices from the Witchhunters (or Daemonhunters) codex.

So you can get a Cannoness (with a retinue of Celestians), another Celestian squad, two Sisters of Battle squads and a unit of Seraphim.

You can also pick up an Inquisitor, for the mystics, if you want.

Plus, I bet Sisters work fantastically when combined with Valkyries/ Vendettas.

BuFFo

12-01-2009, 01:40 AM

You can also pick up an Inquisitor, for the mystics, if you want.

He is looking into IG with WH, not with DH, as far as I can tell.

What he would want to do is probably take an Inquisitor with Divine Pronouncement to augment his Psyker Battle Squad, so that he can force enemy units to make a fall back morale check on a LD of 2.

Thats a spicy meatball!

Aristocrap

12-01-2009, 05:14 AM

He is looking into IG with WH, not with DH, as far as I can tell.
Correct. I hadn't really thought of using Inquisitors with IG/WH before. What are some examples of the stuff he can do?

Melissia

12-01-2009, 07:27 AM

Aside from what buffo mentioned, most of what he'll do is take up points and get killed. Inquisitors aren't really that great aside from the odd synergy like that. Most of their retinue is GEQ with laspistol/CCW, too.

Also, the C:WH inquisitor cannot have Mystics.

BuFFo

12-01-2009, 08:23 AM

Well, the Inquisitor Lord can make an enemy IC's LD 3 for the entire game. I am sure you could find some combo with that and the Psyker Battle Squad, but I haven't found anything useful.

There really isn't much you can do thats worthwhile besides Divine Pronouncement and Weaken Resolve working together.

I know you aren't looking into Demon Hunters, but give this combo a shot...

Codex IG - 2x Psyker Battle Squad
Codex WH - Inquisitor Lord with Divine Pronouncement
Codex WH - Callidus Assassin

With these units, you can auto kill most models / units in the game with Weaken Resolve and the Callidus Assassin. You can also force non Fearless, non Stubborn units to fall back off the table with the Lord and PBS.

Its fun dropping a Seer Council's LD to 2, plopping a Callidus Assassin behind the unit, then flaming them to death with the Assassin. If you need to make them fall back, throw a Divine Pronouncement onto them, and during the assault phase, if you can reach, assault them with the Assassin. Auto death!

Works wonders against Nob Bikers ever better since they don't have any annoying reroll armor saves going on!

Remember, if you don't want to pay the points for an Inquisitor Lord + his retinue, go the cheaper route which I normally do in smaller games;

Codex IG - Psyker Battle Squad
Codex WH - Inquisitor (Elite)
Codex DH - Callidus Assassin

With this configuration, don't bother with Divine Pronouncement, since the Inq is only LD 8. This is so you can just take the Callidus as cheap as possible.

Melissia

12-01-2009, 08:45 AM

Codex IG - Psyker Battle Squad
Codex WH - Inquisitor (Elite)
Codex DH - Callidus Assassin

Read your FAQs, you can't do that. If you want to play by houserules that let you do that, go ahead, but there's no guarentee that you'd be able to, and I'd personally force concessions out of you if you tried that on me (which is how I always do houserules-- people want to do houserules to make their own armies more powerful, fine, so I'll agree to play if they houserule making MY units more powerful too :P)

Lord Azaghul

12-01-2009, 08:54 AM

I will generally advise people to pick up whatever models they want to paint. If that's the case, then pick up both.

My personal opinion, the guard are a stronger force WITHOUT the inquision or sisters.

The current guard book can be fielded in so many viable fashions that any outside forces just don't meld as well. Orders are amazing, and make all infantry (ie everything but a vehicle) much more versital. Guard do have the best tanks in the game. And I'm pretty sure a vet squad with meltas is cheaper then a squad of sisters! Guard don't need the CC elements that the allies proved, when you have to sacrifice fire power to get it!

Again, just my opinion!

Melissia

12-01-2009, 09:02 AM

And I'm pretty sure a vet squad with meltas is cheaper then a squad of sisters!

Only if you don't purchase any upgrades for them. Add in Demolitions or Grenadiers and the two squads are rather similar in price. However, the Sisters woiuld have the advantage of a faith point (and so a phase of of AP1/power weapons on to-hit rolls of six for example, or 3+ invulnerable saves), power armor, and bolters. Oh, and better leadership rules. The veterans would be slightly cheaper and have three meltaguns rather than two, but they'd be less survivable and have less anti-infantry capability.

And don't bring up Chimeras, both units can use them in an allied setting.

Lord Azaghul

12-01-2009, 09:45 AM

Only if you don't purchase any upgrades for them. Add in Demolitions or Grenadiers and the two squads are rather similar in price. However, the Sisters woiuld have the advantage of a faith point (and so a phase of of AP1/power weapons on to-hit rolls of six for example, or 3+ invulnerable saves), power armor, and bolters. Oh, and better leadership rules. The veterans would be slightly cheaper and have three meltaguns rather than two, but they'd be less survivable and have less anti-infantry capability.

And don't bring up Chimeras, both units can use them in an allied setting.

I'm merely commenting on comparable pricing. The vet squads aren't as 'core' to the functioning of the army as sisters are to their army.

Vet upgrades: Most guard players don't bother with these upgrades after trying them out for a game or two. Primarily because of what you pointed out - armour - they aren't has survivable. I prefer to keep mine cheap and disposible. I will say on the sisters side of things, that compared to marines their squads are a steal of a price (points not $$)

The nice thing about the guard: if the vets fail, well I've still got tanks, if the tanks fail, I've got more infantry...and if that fails...well that's just a bad day!:D

fuzzbuket

12-01-2009, 10:38 AM

Aristocrap

12-01-2009, 10:56 AM

if you think of starting eldar try this

farseer
avatar
10 wraithguard (havks with a remodeld head and cape work nicley)
2 prisims
10 pathfinders
wraithlord

run like so

wraith +farseer+avatar+wraithlord
advance and T6/8 shold hammer bolters
use prisims and pathfinders+wraithlord to kill weapons that can hurt your wraiths

MArine FAIL

fortune+T6= no more bolters
math 10 bolters 3+hit 2/3 hit 7 (6.6 hit)
1(1.2) wound
2/3 chance to save (0.8 chance to fail)
if failed reroll (0.16)

If I started Eldar, I'd rather go a mechanized/mobile route and use lots of jetbikes, wave serpents, war walkers, ect. For some reason, using fast, aggressive Eldar have grabbed my interest rather than a more defensive, footslogging approach.

As for the Guard/SoB dilemma, I think I'll just try and throw some Sisters into my solid IG lists and see how they do. Best to test them out for myself. I'd rather not take Inquisitors, despite how cool the WH backstory may make them seem.

BuFFo

12-01-2009, 11:35 AM

Read your FAQs, you can't do that. If you want to play by houserules that let you do that, go ahead, but there's no guarentee that you'd be able to, and I'd personally force concessions out of you if you tried that on me (which is how I always do houserules-- people want to do houserules to make their own armies more powerful, fine, so I'll agree to play if they houserule making MY units more powerful too :P)

You are misunderstanding the FAQ and your own codex.

Q. If an army has Daemonhunters or Witch
Hunters allies, can it take any other type of
allies?
A. No, unless these are also Inquisitorial units, or
unless they are members of a separate
Detachment. This is stated in Codex: Witch
Hunters, and has been added to the Allies box on
page 21 of Codex: Daemonhunters for its second
print run.

Page 25, under Using Wich Hunters As Allies; 1) Read the third Bullet and read the second to last paragraph, as this also specifically states you can take other members of the Ordo Inquisitors.

If you play IG, you can take allies from both WH and DH as long as they are both Inquisitorial Units, which the Callidus Assassin and Inquisitor are.

So yes, a Callidus from the WH Codex and an Inquisitor from the DH codex working together in an IG army is perfectly fine.

DarkLink

12-01-2009, 11:55 AM

You are misunderstanding the FAQ and your own codex.

Q. If an army has Daemonhunters or Witch
Hunters allies, can it take any other type of
allies?
A. No, unless these are also Inquisitorial units, or
unless they are members of a separate
Detachment. This is stated in Codex: Witch
Hunters, and has been added to the Allies box on
page 21 of Codex: Daemonhunters for its second
print run.

Page 25, under Using Wich Hunters As Allies; 1) Read the third Bullet and read the second to last paragraph, as this also specifically states you can take other members of the Ordo Inquisitors.

If you play IG, you can take allies from both WH and DH as long as they are both Inquisitorial Units, which the Callidus Assassin and Inquisitor are.

So yes, a Callidus from the WH Codex and an Inquisitor from the DH codex working together in an IG army is perfectly fine.

No, what she's talking about is that you are explicitly forbidden from using a WH Inquisitor to get a DH Assassin.

If you want a DH Assassin, you need a DH Inquisitor.

BuFFo

12-01-2009, 12:00 PM

No, what she's talking about is that you are explicitly forbidden from using a WH Inquisitor to get a DH Assassin.

If you want a DH Assassin, you need a DH Inquisitor.

From the Daemon Hunter FAQ...

Q. Can Daemonhunters be taken as allies in an
army that also has Witch Hunter allies?
A. Yes, Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter units
may both be taken as allies in the same army.

From all the rules i quoted, I see nothing forbidding you from doing such a thing. As a matter of fact, I have shown at least 4 rules which flat out say you can tale both codexes as allies in the same army.

The only thing I can understand here is that some people say you can't take an inquisitor from one book for an Assassin from another book. I don't see how you can't. As long as your army list has an Inquisitor, you can take Assassins. I see no restriction that forces you to only take the units from a single book.

As far as the game is concerned, your army has a 'single large codex' when you use IG, DH and WH together, as long as you follow all the rules for allies and follow all restrictions.

If there is such a rule, could you please point it out to me? I must be missing it somewhere, and if I am playing my IG wrong, I would like to be corrected so I don't make the same mistake over and over.

Lerra

12-01-2009, 02:35 PM

There is an FAQ somewhere stating that Assassins require you to purchase an Inquisitor from the same codex. Let me see if I can find it . . .

I am considering picking up some Sisters, but I am worried that the Allies rules will be removed from future =I= codices. I'd be very sad to see the allies rules go - the game is much more fun when you can switch up your army list by mixing in some allies.

BuFFo

12-01-2009, 03:29 PM

Melissia

12-01-2009, 07:49 PM

Ah thanks Lerra! I found it in the WH Errata/FAQ.

Good thing its only a FAQ and not an Errata!

Oh well, guess that if I decide to follow this house rule, I'll have to pay the extra few points for a Lord. No biggie actually.

You mean if you decide NOT to houserule. I don't care what you think, if you don't use GW's FAQs, you ARE house-ruling.

Melissia

12-01-2009, 07:53 PM

compared to marines their squads are a steal of a price (points not $$)

Then apparently you aren't paying attention to what a full Marine squad can get. A tactical squad iwth heavy weapon, flamer, and rhino costs almost the same as a Sororitas squad with rhino, veteran, heavy flamer, meltagun. Except the tacticals get MEQ, ATSKNF, bolt pistols, both types of grenades, and their special/heavy weapons. In fact, Marines can actually field the same amount of models, if not more, than a Sisters army could at the same points level.

Orminah

12-01-2009, 08:35 PM

Bah! If you want to try xenos, do it. Way too many Imperial players. It's sickening really. :)

Lord Azaghul

12-02-2009, 07:57 AM

Then apparently you aren't paying attention to what a full Marine squad can get. A tactical squad iwth heavy weapon, flamer, and rhino costs almost the same as a Sororitas squad with rhino, veteran, heavy flamer, meltagun. Except the tacticals get MEQ, ATSKNF, bolt pistols, both types of grenades, and their special/heavy weapons. In fact, Marines can actually field the same amount of models, if not more, than a Sisters army could at the same points level.

Wow I was actually trying to suppose you army and you go all tactless...brilliant.

You do realized you just has bad as buffo?

The guard are the superiour army, deal with it.

Melissia

12-02-2009, 08:24 AM

BuFFo

12-02-2009, 08:41 AM

You do realized you just has bad as buffo?

How am I 'bad'? Somehow, your opinions are gold while my opinions are 'bad'?

Lord Azaghul

12-02-2009, 08:47 AM

Then why do I win against them more often than I lose? Regardless, my intent wasn't to be rude, but to correct your mistake. Apologies for any apparent rudeness, although I don't see where it is. Also... "suppose you army"... ... ... what? I assume you mean "support your army"? In which case I would simply point out that I am a realist.

.

Yes support...I never could spell, my apologies on that one.

If you're winning constently with your sisters then you're obviously a skilled player. Just like I am winning constantly with my guard army, I take a mixed army, and I know how to use platoons. Just like a the same thing can be said of a marine player who wins all the time.

I am of the option that the guard options within their own book make for a much better army then an army mixed with allies.

The Vets to Sisters to Marines comaparision is really not a fair one. Vets are NOT the 'do any/everyhing' that marines and sisters need to do. I was trying to establish special weapon oppurtinites, vs cost. I'm trying to establish the function within the army: ie it must more painful for a marine or sisters player to lose a 10man/woman squad, then for a guard player to lose ANY 10 man squad (or vehicle for that matter)

The guard has the option to be completely redudant. And they have the abilty to do it cheaply while allow there forces to remain expendable. The key to effectily using a guard army is learning to use ALL your components in your army. Many marine players I've seen to not grasp this concept - they expect nice shiney's to win the game.

My guard army (standard all comers 2k) have over 100 troops on foot, including 4 hw squads 3 chimeras (for my vets), ratlings, walkers, 2 russ variants and 2 squaded bassies, and most importainly 2 CCS.
The army presents both 'mass-fire' and 'surgical strike' options. If I my takes die to melta marines, my squads mass-fire. If my opponent is trying to use flanks and cover, my mortars, vets threaten themm untill my out flankers show up. The guard just has so many useful options, that to use allies limits its flexability.

My main argument boils down to: I don't see any other army that has the above said abilites, in the quantity that they guard army has. They are the perfect army for me.

Lord Azaghul

12-02-2009, 08:50 AM

How am I 'bad'? Somehow, your opinions are gold while my opinions are 'bad'?

Opinions aren't what I was refering too, it was 'tone' and elitism (as covered in another thread I believe!):D

In fact most of the time I agree with your opinions. You present more logic then most, and you seem to steer away from the typical internet forum mantra "but its the only way to play...."

BuFFo

12-02-2009, 08:53 AM

Opinions aren't what I was refering too, it was 'tone' and elitism (as covered in another thread I believe!):D

In fact most of the time I agree with your opinions. You present more logic then most, and you seem to steer away from the typical internet forum mantra "but its the only way to play...."

omg is this a case of me not using enough smileys because your average internet reader always reads words on a forum as a negative tone due to the lack of vocal tone and facial expressions that relay a friendly atmosphere? :confused:

Fine.. I need to start using more smileys then around here... :D

:p

Lord Azaghul

12-02-2009, 08:56 AM

omg is this a case of me not using enough smileys because your average internet reader always reads words on a forum as a negative tone due to the lack of vocal tone and facial expressions that relay a friendly atmosphere? :confused:

Fine.. I need to start using more smileys then around here... :D

:p

Nice!

See I do have a sense of humor...
My apoligies, I just find myself getting annoyed with the constant broken records...

Melissia

12-02-2009, 12:01 PM

The guard just has so many useful options, that to use allies limits its flexability.
And that is where you are wrong. The units that you ally in increase the flexibility of your choices, and often have great synergy with Guard elements. For example, allying in a bare bones Canoness with book and storm bolter creates an LD10 bubble of stubborn that also applies to pinning checks-- more survivable than a commissar, cheaper than a commissar, and with better weapons options than a commissar (blessed weapon comes to mind) if you want to upgrade her. Celestians make a durable tarpit unit that is capable of hitting most enemies on a 3+ or better regardless of WS. Repentia are still worthless yes, but then they always were anyway. Battle Sisters make great objective holders or takers in a Guard army, because they're so hard to force off of an objective when played properly-- and it's just 130-ish points for a basic squad with a veteran and book, toss 'em on an objective and it'll take some serious resources to get them off, resources which aren't aimed at your Guard. Dominians aren't that great, bu then they aren't in any army regardless. Seraphim have been talked about in a recent BoLS article, and if you want info on them, read that.

None of these choices are mandatory, because that would be silly. But they can give you more options and therefor flexibility when they're included in not just your army list, but also your tactics.

Aristocrap

12-02-2009, 12:09 PM

All arguments aside, the IG/SoB combination sounds like a fun and rewarding idea, and I would enjoy trying it out. However, I think I might go the xenos route this month and work on Eldar. I already have some troops and HQ components for Eldar, opposed to IG, which I only have a random squad of Kasrkin. Additionally, I already encounter several IG armies in my metagame, and I want to do something different. Perhaps when my Eldar fascination die down a little, or when GW decides to update SoB, I'll give the IG/SoB army a go.

Lord Azaghul

12-02-2009, 01:05 PM

And that is where you are wrong. .

I agree that those are options, but to me what you have to trade out, ie heavy, hq or elite slots, and just points in general aren't worth the allied benefit.

I think sentinals make fantastic tarpits - and they explode when done, taking out more foe, which is what you want;
As a guard player you reall don't want a lasting tarpit - you want your 10 man squad to die - in your opponents turns to you can shoot the tar out of his unit in your.

Guard are strongest (IMHO) when you don't try to compensate for weak CC abilites.

OT: aristocrap - have fun with your xenos! After all it should come down to what you think you'll have fun working on/with - not what ANYONE else things! Good luck.

Melissia

12-02-2009, 01:23 PM

aren't worth the allied benefit.... and that's what I've been saying you're wrong about this entire time :P

They are wroth it. Sisters aren't good in CC anyway, they don't compensate for lack of CC ability. They add great anti-infantry shooting power, and staying power.

Lord Azaghul

12-02-2009, 02:40 PM

... and that's what I've been saying you're wrong about this entire time :P

They are wroth it. Sisters aren't good in CC anyway, they don't compensate for lack of CC ability. They add great anti-infantry shooting power, and staying power.

My response would be guard have better anti-infantry shooting power!

But we should probably wrap this up with 'an agree to disagree' since neither will be convincing the other today!

Melissia

12-02-2009, 04:26 PM

Yes, but very few things which can be both extremely killy and extremely durable, as a properly used Sisters unit can :P Even just a Canoness and Battle Sister Squad can really buff your IG army in ways that the IG army would have to spend more points than is really feasible to give itself similar punch and staying power. You don't need this, but it's a good option to have.

fade_74

12-03-2009, 10:41 AM

I was going to pick up a new army to work on over the holidays (and the next several months) but decided not to. Instead I hit up ebay and Forgeworld for some new IG stuff.
1 hellhound
1 demolisher (probably going to be a second executioner for me)
1 valkyrie (with the forgeworld vendetta conversion kit and transfer sheet)
2 medusas (just the plain ones, i like them best for some reason)
1 hydra flak tank
1 manticore
5 death riders of krieg
1 of the new tau close support suits (wont really use just one by itself, but i really wanted to paint one)
a couple new MIG pigments
a couple forgeworld pigments
a new set of drill bits
tamiya weathering set d (metalic blue, metalic red, and oil/grease stain)

and a partridge in a pear tree......

I quit smoking a couple months ago.....and started saving the money just to buy models with.....250$ a month :eek: for smokes that ruin my health, or...........all this stuff......i think it was a good deal :D