Does Lion El'Jonsson have Asperger's Syndrome?

[Resinpants]

I've been thinking about the Primarchs and their relationship with the Emperor, their personalities, flaws and traits, when it hit me. The Lion has terrible interpersonal relations with those around him, has trouble reading and understanding their emotions, and has obsessive tendencies. These are classic Asperger's traits. Those with Asperger's are often brilliant in other ways, and the Lion is acknowledged as a superior tactician, even among his brothers.
All of the Primarchs have their own strengths and weaknesses in some way, and from his first appearance in Descent of Angels, it was obvious that he wasn't as well rounded as some of his brothers.
I'm not criticising those with Asperger's, just wondering if I'm the only one out there who thinks that this might be the case?

Admin Note: Poll Added

[Katharon]

You remember the part where it details how the Lion was first discovered by Luther in the forest? Imagine the original Wild Ape Man of old Colonial-era fantasy, where a man grows up not within the hallowed halls of civilization -- but is instead raised among the dangers of the dark jungle. The Lion is that trope/archetype personified. He grew to manhood without speaking a word, having no one but himself to rely upon, naked in a place inhabited by some of the most deadly monsters (warp-tainted) you could imagine. How sociable do you believe an individual would be with that kind of start?

[Captofthe8th]

OP is right, the Lion sucks at reading people and playing well with others. It's possible to chalk it up to a rough childhood, but for a guy that can, in his own words, perform hyperspace calculations in his head, he ought to be genius enough to figure how to read people. Case in point, he handed over those super seige engines to Perturabo as he lied straight to the Lion. He really lacked in this regard.

[DarkLink]

There are a lot of different types of smart out there, being intelligent in one area does not make you intelligent in all areas.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think it's an intriguing idea. I kind of like the thought that the Lion's tragic flaw could have been an inability to get people. I'm not sure calling it Asperger's is totally accurate - I'm not sure that the Primarchs are sufficiently human for us to ascribe human disorders to them - but it sounds like a good model for his personality.

[Resinpants]

It's a good point about the Lion growing up in isolation. One I had considered, as those with Asperger's often develop language later than their peers. But as he grew up without language, there was no possibilities of reliable observations. I also accept the notion that the Lion may not be sufficiently human to ascribe human frailties to. However, the point I'm trying to make, is that the Emperor's experiment of perfect warrior/leaders was not without failure. For all the Emperors efforts, the faults and foibles that make us human have crept in. Dorn is riven with self doubt, Fulgrim is consumed with hubris, vanity and pride, Lorgar can't seem to function without something to worship, all of which are human failings. Much is made in the text of the Lion's dependency on Luther, even into adulthood, of his inability to "read" people, and his odd behaviour in banishing those closest to him, with no apparent consideration to their feelings. I'm just seeking to explain some of these behaviours, as they ultimately lead to his downfall.

[Dread Corsair]

Of course, the very reason the heresy started was due to the fact despite being omnipotent superbeings they were all susceptible to human failings.

[Cpt Codpiece]

i think the lion is supposed to be a little bit crazy.... both from his early years as feral, and his obvious warp taint during that time.
what did he eat? he ate what he killed.... eating meat from chaos monsters is never good for you.

he had a natural affinity towards the scheming side of things, plans and plots etc and then there are the watchers.

silent sentinels that only talk to him, supposedly only visible to him (until calibans destruction) and then the obvious link to a demon engine that he has no issues using to his own desires...... a demon engine that can manipulate time and space....

sounds like classic tzeentch to me.

oh thats right the DA have a load of bird and feather symbols, and they have a strong librarius that knows the schemes of men....... no definitely not tzeentch then :/

[presto15]

I would say that the Lion does not have asperger's Syndrome. Mainly on the premise that Asperger's no longer exists. Does the Lion have Autism... That is a simple yes, as every person lies somewhere on the autistic continuum. Now where does he lie on the continuum, is another question and without more insight into his thoughts, I would argue that is impossible at this point to say. However, using the DSM V, I would say that the Lion at least has a mild form of Autism.

[Resinpants]

Actually, I think the Heresy occurred because of the Emperor's bad parenting skills. :-)

As for the Dark Angels having a strong Librarius, did Zahariel and Israfael on Caliban not get the message about the Edict of Nikea?

[Cpt Codpiece]

Actually, I think the Heresy occurred because of the Emperor's bad parenting skills. :-)

As for the Dark Angels having a strong Librarius, did Zahariel and Israfael on Caliban not get the message about the Edict of Nikea?

there was very little contact with caliban, im sure its mentioned in descent.

and the lion was not shy in defiance of the edict....... poor poor chaplain LOL

[ElectricPaladin]

I hear a lot of "ooh... the Emperor was such a bad dad!" But honestly, this doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, I guess that he did a lousy job of managing the primarchs, it's true, but he didn't really parent any of them. They were lost as fetuses and rediscovered as adults. The Emperor never did any parenting. He was their biological "father," I suppose, but all of them were raised by whatever individuals found them on the various planets they crash-landed on. The Emperor didn't change diapers. He didn't teach values. He wasn't their dad in any meaningful way.

The fact that the primarchs used the honorific "father" was more a matter of custom or symbolism than out of any real filial feelings.

I just don't get it. The heresy didn't happen because the Emperor was a bad dad. It happened because he was a lousy manager who didn't know how to make his employees feel valued and respected. He didn't know how to shoot down a collaborator's idea without making that collaborator feel like he was no longer part of the team. He didn't need parenting class - he needed a team-building seminar.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So, OP. I don't know what your life's situation is or what not, but it seems like you sparked a firestorm (indirectly of course, not your fault) on BoLS facebook page.

Enjoy:

https://www.facebook.com/belloflostsouls/posts/10152041787020729

[Arkhan Land]

The fact that the primarchs used the honorific "father" was more a matter of custom or symbolism than out of any real filial feelings.

on top of the Emperors issues about management their loss as fetuses probably had a number of effects:

Many of them are psykers and are un-aware of their origins, im sure thats always a bad upbringing of its own, not mention being once touched by the warp so hard as to displace you in the universe. cribside trauma if I ever heard it

Most of them survive in a fight-to-the-top-towards-recognition-from-the-outside-universe kinda enviroment, these people never played with toys or went on dates, theyve been strangling things since being able to walk!

also to the thread question on aspergers, When I was younger and more academically involved I worked with a number of younger kids with aspergers who were a wide range of near catatonic to somewhat talktative or from super organized to really really incredibly brilliant. I remember one from a music camp I worked at who was taking the same math as I was as at college level in High School. these people are amazing and focused but incredibly inept on the humanity side. If some of those kids I met had focused less on math or music and more on weaponry ballistics and tactics I have no doubt they'de be some odd odd menaces to humanity

[iamian]

as someone with Aspergers/Autism I would say probably, though he could just be an antisocial dick.

[YorkNecromancer]

It feels to me that it was more that Jonson was just hellishly introverted, and to be betrayed by Luther, who was his one true love, probably pushed him all the way into not wanting anything to do with other people again. I always got more of a 'broken by love' vibe from the Dark Angels fluff than anything else, especially given the none-too-subtle homosexual subtext. That said, it would fit for him to be further on the autistic spectrum than the majority of people.

Also, this is the first time I've ever mentally compared a Primarch to a lady who designed cattle abbatoirs. If you haven't watched HBO's excellent biopic of Temple Grandin, you really owe it to yourself to do so. It's fantastic.

[Psychosplodge]

So, OP. I don't know what your life's situation is or what not, but it seems like you sparked a firestorm (indirectly of course, not your fault) on BoLS facebook page.

Enjoy:

https://www.facebook.com/belloflostsouls/posts/10152041787020729

Some people have nothing better to do than be offended on others behalf...

[Katharon]

As has been said by many people already and as I myself argued before, to simplify the personality of the Lion, a primarch, to something as mundane (and sad IRL) as Aspergers Syndrome lessens the character. The Lion is a tragic figure. If you were to try and sum up all of his actions by saying "oh yeah, it was Aspergers or something," then you've totally wasted a literary goldmine of potential.

[BrianDavion]

I have asperger's syndrome and I don't see a problem with this. sure it's a simplification, but over all it's a fair question. is the Lion's behavior symptomatic of simply his irregular upbringing, or is it indicative of a high fuctioning disorder within the autistic spectrum?

is it simplification to simply dismiss him as just having asperger's? well.. yeah but that's the truth even for people who really DO have it

[ElectricPaladin]

Personally, I kind of wish there was an ADHD primarch I could identify with.

EDIT: Khan, maybe? He does kind of personify of the Internet ADHDism of "let's go ride bikes." :D

[Wildeybeast]

OP is right, the Lion sucks at reading people and playing well with others. It's possible to chalk it up to a rough childhood, but for a guy that can, in his own words, perform hyperspace calculations in his head, he ought to be genius enough to figure how to read people. Case in point, he handed over those super seige engines to Perturabo as he lied straight to the Lion. He really lacked in this regard.

Not sure we can blame him for the tank one. Vulcan, Corax and Ferrus didn't spot it until said tanks were blowing their legions to smithereens.

[Stephen Wood]

Can't see the point of this post.
The authors title. Lack of knowledge of the
Disorder and tact has left a very distasteful taste in my mouth.

Really think Bols have dropped the ball publishing it
And the negative comments coming in aren't good for
Anyone.

[Resinpants]

As the OP, the point of the post is in discussing the motivations and thoughts behind these characters. I was simply hypothesising a point of view. I was a teacher in an SEN school (Special Educational Needs) and came across pupils with a wide range of conditions. Autism, as many have observed is measured on a spectrum, and as such can be difficult to diagnose. Postulating such speculation invites comment from others, some who agree, others who don't, some of whom will have more experience than me.

On the subject of those who agree or disagree, I didn't set up the poll, if I had, I wouldn't have used the phrase "wrong with his noggin"!

It's disappointing to read many of the comments, because where some of us use the words "Asperger's" and "Autism", others see "retard" and "*******". I have been accused of missing the point, but being abusive goes far wider of the mark. Mental Health awareness is increasingly important, and discussions surrounding them should not be taboo. Why shouldn't fictional characters have mental health issues?

I thought that the "Tarzan"argument wasnt sufficient. So I put forward another idea. There is some sound opposition, and that's fine, perhaps the answer is "No"! I thought that a Forum was a setting for people to air their views, and spark debate, that's the point isn't it?

[Psychosplodge]

Most of the regulars will happily debate anything with you without resorting to abuse. regardless of if they agree with you or not. :D

[iamian]

well, OP, I have aspergers/autism, and am not offended... in fact anyone offended on my behalf is offensive.

[ElectricPaladin]

well, OP, I have aspergers/autism, and am not offended... in fact anyone offended on my behalf is offensive.

http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/aw/2008/aw080613.gif

[Resinpants]

Thanks! I guess some people are just rude! I was tempted to say how offended I was by their rudeness but I think I'll just drop it.....

[Resinpants]

as someone with Aspergers/Autism I would say probably, though he could just be an antisocial dick.

Maybe so! He could have inherited that from the Emperor too! The Emperor's not exactly a "people person" is he? If you have contrary opinions or aren't a human you're kinda screwed!

[Aspire to Glory]

I believe that ALL of the primarchs had trouble relating to others in one way or another. They were weapons, forged for leading the deadliest warriors in history. Even charismatic ones like Horus and Sanguinius were prone to throwing childlike hissy fits. They weren't made to have a great deal of empathy.

I mostly blame The Lion's reputation on extremely poor writing. ADB actually made him pretty awesome, and at the same time dispelled the unfounded theory that El'Johnson was waiting to join the fight until a victor was likely.

[Kovnik Obama]

To OP : No. A Primarch's brain isn't a human brain, therefore it cannot have a specifically human disorder. Furthermore, a Primarch's brain is designed, as opposed to evolved. What would appear to us to be a pervasive disorder could be the intended result.

In any cases, Asperger's core features also includes stereotyped and repetitive motor behaviours, as well as the inability to harmonize interests and information gathering (Asperger's will often memorize ridiculously large amounts of data about things they do not care at all about, and can't stop themselves). Obviously, these aspects of Aspergers would be highly detrimental to any strategos.

[DemonFerret]

[QUOTE=Kovnik Obama;380102

In any cases, Asperger's core features also includes stereotyped and repetitive motor behaviours, as well as the inability to harmonize interests and information gathering (Asperger's will often memorize ridiculously large amounts of data about things they do not care at all about, and can't stop themselves). Obviously, these aspects of Aspergers would be highly detrimental to any strategos.[/QUOTE]

I am on the autism spectrum with asperger's and have always found the conversation between zharial and Jonson about Jonsons appointment to Grand Master humorous because he mentions how sensitive his hearing is and how people forget about it. That is completely relevent to autism because oftentimes that is exactly the case. We (people with asperger's) dont have filters on what comes in from our senses and cant shut it off. Ive always thought jonson was similar. Just my 2 cents though.

[Katharon]

I am on the autism spectrum with asperger's and have always found the conversation between zharial and Jonson about Jonsons appointment to Grand Master humorous because he mentions how sensitive his hearing is and how people forget about it. That is completely relevent to autism because oftentimes that is exactly the case. We (people with asperger's) dont have filters on what comes in from our senses and cant shut it off. Ive always thought jonson was similar. Just my 2 cents though.

So does that mean Superman has Aspergers too? Jonson is a super-post-human being created for perfection to fight wars of unimaginable violence and survive them -- he does not have Aspergers.

[Resinpants]

[QUOTE=Kovnik Obama;380102]To OP : No. A Primarch's brain isn't a human brain, therefore it cannot have a specifically human disorder. Furthermore, a Primarch's brain is designed, as opposed to evolved. What would appear to us to be a pervasive disorder could be the intended result.

This point has been raised before, and my response is that whilst the Primarchs, and indeed all Astartes, Custodes and Proto-Astartes/thunder warriors, are undeniably super-human , post-human and more, they have as their basic genetic blueprint the human genome. They all have their faults, foibles and tics - jealousy, hubris, pride, madness, superiority, (I find Lorgar's need to worship particularly interesting, and as an atheist I have some views on that too, but one controversy at a time....). But their humanity, and all it's splendid variety could not be eliminated, and that it was the Emperor's arrogance in thinking that he could strip that away to his own ends is a root cause of the HH. I'd love to learn more about Curze, especially as his Legion hate him!

[Kovnik Obama]

The point isn't that Primarchs and humans don't share common mental features, but that the peculiar origins of the Primarchs, as (objective) creatures, makes it impossible to compare those features to those obtaines through the developpment of human mental features. DemonFerret's example is actually à propos here, since what would appear to us to be aural hypersensitivity, something which is clearly not an advantage, could be the intended result for a designed mind : "Who cares about the fact that said Primarch must constantly deal with a migraine, he can hear hearthbeats from 3 miles away! He's a warrior-god, not a geriatric care recipient, he can endure it!"

The problem is that of design. It makes no sense whatsoever to call the various Primarchs psychopaths or sociopaths, because that implies a normal 'Primarchial' psyche which would exhibit the same features that a human would. A Primarch with the mind of a stable, sociable human being would've been of very little use to the Emperor, in my opinion.

[Katharon]

The point isn't that Primarchs and humans don't share common mental features, but that the peculiar origins of the Primarchs, as (objective) creatures, makes it impossible to compare those features to those obtaines through the developpment of human mental features. DemonFerret's example is actually à propos here, since what would appear to us to be aural hypersensitivity, something which is clearly not an advantage, could be the intended result for a designed mind : "Who cares about the fact that said Primarch must constantly deal with a migraine, he can hear hearthbeats from 3 miles away! He's a warrior-god, not a geriatric care recipient, he can endure it!"

The problem is that of design. It makes no sense whatsoever to call the various Primarchs psychopaths or sociopaths, because that implies a normal 'Primarchial' psyche which would exhibit the same features that a human would. A Primarch with the mind of a stable, sociable human being would've been of very little use to the Emperor, in my opinion.

Even Space Marines, regular Astartes, have enhanced hearing and the ability to tune things out as well. It's not a sign of some sort of frailty, syndrome, or disease. They are weapons made for war. Living weapons, but weapons none-the-less.

[Resinpants]

The problem is that of design. It makes no sense whatsoever to call the various Primarchs psychopaths or sociopaths, because that implies a normal 'Primarchial' psyche which would exhibit the same features that a human would. A Primarch with the mind of a stable, sociable human being would've been of very little use to the Emperor, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

This is a good point, and one that the Thunder Warrior, Babu Dhakal touched on in "The Outcast Dead", however, the Emperor clearly did design them to be more than warriors, why else appoint Horus to deal with the Crusade? I think he had a purpose for them at the Crusade's end. However, if it's all in the design, I think my point still stands, would the Emperor have designed Curze's insanity, Lorgar's fealty, Fulgrim's hubris and pride? Would he have designed the mysterious two missing Primarchs to fail?

In a sense I think you're right, the intention of the Emperor was to elevate them beyond humanity, but he failed.

[Gwhizz84]

This is a good point, and one that the Thunder Warrior, Babu Dhakal touched on in "The Outcast Dead", however, the Emperor clearly did design them to be more than warriors, why else appoint Horus to deal with the Crusade? I think he had a purpose for them at the Crusade's end. However, if it's all in the design, I think my point still stands, would the Emperor have designed Curze's insanity, Lorgar's fealty, Fulgrim's hubris and pride? Would he have designed the mysterious two missing Primarchs to fail?

In a sense I think you're right, the intention of the Emperor was to elevate them beyond humanity, but he failed.
This is my first post (Hi!) but I had to respond to this.. The Emperor designed them to be entirely blank slates that He could subsequently program ideal behaviour into, I think. I'm fairly sure he didn't expect the Primarchs to get abducted and thrown half way across the galaxy and learn their identities and priorities from very human sources. Lorgar got raised by religious fanatics, the Lion got raised by no one and thats why he struggles to react and adapt to humanity, Guilliman got raised by a beneficient leader, Curze was raised in the shadows etc.. Basically they got shaped by environment rather than design

[Resinpants]

Hi Gwhizz84!

The age-old nature/nurture debate! I believe that it's not one or other that shapes our psyche, but a combination of both. I think that the Primarchs inherited different aspects of their father's personality, so in that sense I have to disagree.

But the notion that they weren't "finished", and not trained by him as they matured is certainly an interesting point. Can we start again? :-)

[Gwhizz84]

Mm I guess I agree, after all you can get *******s out of good situations and good people out of ****ty lifestyles. In this case it's stated that primarchs inherited one primary characteristic that dominate their personality.. Horus - ambition, Sanguinius - innonence, Lorgar - faith and so on. What would be very interesting is if you consider what would happen if you swapped around some of their homeworlds and upbringing.. Guilliman and Curze for instance, or Magnus and Dorn. Also something to consider, how would Angron have turned out if he didn't have the Butcher's Nails rewiring his brain?

[Resinpants]

[QUOTE=Gwhizz84;380708] Also something to consider, how would Angron have turned out if he didn't have the Butcher's Nails rewiring his brain?

Poor Angron, of all of them I think he's the most tragic! If the Primarchs were designed to be natural born killers as Kovnik Obama has suggested, then he wouldn't have needed the Nails, would he? I reckon he was more scholarly like Magnus or Lorgar, and not cut out for the life of a warrior. Perhaps inheriting the Emperors compassion and altruism! Perhaps in his more lucid moments he's bottle-feeding orphaned lambs and petitioning the Imperium to stop strip-mining every world they colonise! Angron is clearly an homage to "Mean Machine" from Judge Dredd's Angel Gang!

[Kovnik Obama]

The issue is that if we don't know if the Primarchs were designed with the intent to provide them human compassion, then we can't evaluate how far they've deviated from the intended result. A cat which is fooled into believing someone else is his owner doesn't have Capgras Syndrome, because Capgras is a neurological issue affecting a specifically human neural system, even if cats do have a neural system for face recognition.

In the same way, you can't say that Angron has a oppositional defiant disorder or an intermittent explosive disorder. Perhaps, that was the way all Primarchs were designed, and the more sociable ones are the ones that are the deviants.

[Dlatrex]

Possibly in support of that point, the very Primarch who competes for the title of most Charismatic (and certainly the most interested in standard-humans) Lorgar, is in many ways considered the outcast among his fellow brothers!