Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon

[Haighus]

This is a piece of wargear available to Ordos Xenos inquisitors. However, that means it now features in 2 codices, C:Grey Knights and C:Inquisition. In C:I, it has the following item description:


ULUMEATHI PLASMA SYPHON
Models firing plasma weapons (as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook) while
within 12" of a model with an Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon will count as Ballistic Skill 1.

Now, how I read this is that it means that any model firing a plasma gun, plasma pistol or plasma cannon within 12" of the bearer counts as BS1, as these are the weapons in the "plasma weapons" section of the rulebook.
However, in the C:GK FAQ, an Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon affects the following weapons:


Q: What counts as a plasma weapon for the Ulumeathi Plasma
Syphon? (p62)
A: All Plasma weapons, as well as Eldar missile launchers firing
plasma missiles, burst cannons, starcannons, all Tau pulse
weapons and any weapon described as using ‘plasma’ as its
effect or in its special rules.

Now, this affects a far wider range of weapons than the C:I version, and is much more useful. Both cost the same number of points. The C:GK version also seems much more fluffy, and also actually worth the points.

If I included an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with an ulumeathi plasma syphon in my army, which rules would take precedent? If it depends on which codex you've selected the Inquisitor from, then does that mean I could have a GK main army, with an Inquisitorial detachment, and have 2 Ordos Xenos inquisitors with the same piece of wargear creating different game effects? If this is going to be updated, I seriously hope it goes the way of the GK version.

[chicop76]

The FAQ is for Grey Knights. If that was the case other many marine armies can justify other factions fa ts as theirs. Rhinos and skyfire missiles come to mind.

[DarkLink]

If it uses the same wording, then use the GK FAQ. You're making an assumption when you, well, assume that it only refers to plasma pistols, rifles, and cannons. For one, there are several other plasma weapons in the game, plasma talons, that Leman Russ turret. Secondly, the FAQ basically explain what GW means by the vague term "plasma weapon". Since, for example, pulse rifles in the fluff fire small plasma bolts, GW considers them plasma weapons.

As for what chicop is saying... I'm not actually 100% sure what exactly chicop is saying. Just because an FAQ can apply to multiple codices doesn't mean that one army can start taking unit options from a different codex. Those are two very different situations, it's incorrect to compare the two.

[Nabterayl]

I think the confusion is that the wording isn't the same ... not quite. Codex: Inquisition adds the phrase "(as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)," which Codex: Grey Knights does not have. Codex: Grey Knights instead says "(including plasma pistols, plasma guns and plasma cannons)."

I have to admit that I don't see any actual ambiguity in the C:I version - it looks to me like it applies to plasma pistols, plasma guns, and plasma cannons, as silly as that is (since it isn't even all Imperial plasma weapons with the word "plasma" in their names, let alone all plasma weapons). I certainly would allow an opponent to use the Grey Knights version. But I don't really see any reason to disregard what's written other than, "That's really silly."

[Badtucker]

Best thing to do is ask Eddie on facebook - ask Eddie should be its own gw site tbh - anyway go on fb games workshop digital products page, ask him see what the reply is or if they are updating the digital book with that FAQ response.

[Haighus]

Best thing to do is ask Eddie on facebook - ask Eddie should be its own gw site tbh - anyway go on fb games workshop digital products page, ask him see what the reply is or if they are updating the digital book with that FAQ response.

That is a very good idea, going to do that now.

[Badtucker]

That is a very good idea, going to do that now.

dont forget to re post any response here :)

[Haighus]

Ok, some else has asked the same question on the 20th of November, and Eddie's response was this:


I'll pass that on to our rules guys.
For now, I'd probably say yes, as it's effectively the same item as the one in the Grey Knight Codex.


(yes being to using the GK FAQ rules for it) So there may be an official update soon, but at the moment, use the FAQ.

[Mr Mystery]

So, next question.

Unit with the Plasma Syphon is lit up like a Christmas Tree by Marker Lights, and a unit of Firewarriors within 12" lets rip, boosting their BS up using the Market Light hits.

So they're boosting, Syphon is reducing. Officially, which is applied first?

I ask because I've always been aware you apply positives, followed by negatives. But for the life of me I couldn't tell you if that's just a general house rule!

[Haighus]

So, next question.

Unit with the Plasma Syphon is lit up like a Christmas Tree by Marker Lights, and a unit of Firewarriors within 12" lets rip, boosting their BS up using the Market Light hits.

So they're boosting, Syphon is reducing. Officially, which is applied first?

I ask because I've always been aware you apply positives, followed by negatives. But for the life of me I couldn't tell you if that's just a general house rule!

Looking at the multiple modifiers section of the rulebook (pg2), you apply multipliers, then additions and subtractions simultaneously, and then finally any set values. So in the case of markerlights and syphon, the fire warriors would get the BS boost, then have it set at BS1, making the markerlights a wasted resource. I think thats how it would work anyway.

[Aegwymourn]

I think Haighus is correct. The only counter argument is that markerlights can modify the BS of overwatch and snap shots (which is more or less what the Syphon is doing). Unfortunately in their usual fashion GW did not use a standard term when setting the opponent BS to 1 they just typed it out. Although codex GK was written before snap shots was a thing, so....

Might need a bit of a FAQ to find out their intention :rolleyes:

[Popsical]

So we may see a rash of inquisitors with plasma syphons being dropped into the middle of tau armies to reduce their bs to 1 or draw fire off advancing armies?
Im sure the guys in the know will find a way to keep him alive or at least make it really hard to kill him.

[Badtucker]

just got my repply from Eddie

Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hi Brett,
yes, all of those.

'All Plasma weapons, as well as Eldar missile launchers firing plasma missiles, burst cannons, starcannons, all Tau pulse weapons and any weapon described as using ‘plasma’ as its effect or in its special rule'

- Eddie


https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions/posts/179392615588912?comment_id=281561&offset=0&total_comments=1&notif_t=feed_comment

so the GK FAQ is right.

[Haighus]

So we may see a rash of inquisitors with plasma syphons being dropped into the middle of tau armies to reduce their bs to 1 or draw fire off advancing armies?
Im sure the guys in the know will find a way to keep him alive or at least make it really hard to kill him.

Well, seeing as you can take them in valkyries, or give them scout with another wargear option, that's not unfeasible.


just got my repply from Eddie

Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hi Brett,
yes, all of those.

'All Plasma weapons, as well as Eldar missile launchers firing plasma missiles, burst cannons, starcannons, all Tau pulse weapons and any weapon described as using ‘plasma’ as its effect or in its special rule'

- Eddie


https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions/posts/179392615588912?comment_id=281561&offset=0&total_comments=1¬if_t=feed_comment

so the GK FAQ is right.

Awesome :D

[Mr Mystery]

More or less how I thought it would then!

Reckon that's going to be a 'must have' bit of equipment then.

As mentioned before, it's certainly the way I've always played it, unless the two would naturally cancel out, in which case they just do (for instance, and hypothetically, I have a boost which allows me to always re-roll failed checks, you have one which says I always re-roll successful. In that situation, neither applies, and everyones smiles.)

[Badtucker]

past edition it wasnt really needed much, but now tau, eldar and dark angel plasma are alot more common its deffo gonna be one you see alot.

[Nabterayl]

Looking at the multiple modifiers section of the rulebook (pg2), you apply multipliers, then additions and subtractions simultaneously, and then finally any set values. So in the case of markerlights and syphon, the fire warriors would get the BS boost, then have it set at BS1, making the markerlights a wasted resource. I think thats how it would work anyway.
I concur.

[DarkLink]

It wasn't must have when the GK codex dropped, I don't think it will be now.

[Kyban]

I like dropping it on my grenade inquisitor that accompanies my terminators.

[Mr Mystery]

It wasn't must have when the GK codex dropped, I don't think it will be now.

Sheer number of armies that can field them now though...

[DarkLink]

The problem is its short range. It's not too hard to stay just outside of that, and then the thing doesn't do anything. It sounds pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how much actual use you'll get out of it.

[This Dave]

Or do the silly thing I saw someone do where their Inquisitor had a Syphon AND a Plasma Pistol.

[Haighus]

Or do the silly thing I saw someone do where their Inquisitor had a Syphon AND a Plasma Pistol.
That sounds hilarious :D was the inquisitor attached to a unit of plasma henchmen too?

[This Dave]

That would have been funny. If he had I would have made sure that unit was the last thing I shot at so he could think about what he'd done.

[Katharon]

Looking at the multiple modifiers section of the rulebook (pg2), you apply multipliers, then additions and subtractions simultaneously, and then finally any set values. So in the case of markerlights and syphon, the fire warriors would get the BS boost, then have it set at BS1, making the markerlights a wasted resource. I think thats how it would work anyway.

In the case of Marker Lights, from my understanding: first the Syphon effects take place, dropping the FWs to BS1. Then the Marker Lights take effect and raise it back up however many the controlling player is going to use.

[DarkLink]

Actually, it's the oppisite. Markerlights only work like that for Snap Shots, but by default set values come after addition modifiers. Since this isn't a snap shot, markerlights don't work on it. For snap shots, though, you'd be 100% correct.

[Katharon]

Actually, it's the oppisite. Markerlights only work like that for Snap Shots, but by default set values come after addition modifiers. Since this isn't a snap shot, markerlights don't work on it. For snap shots, though, you'd be 100% correct.

After re-reading both entries for the Markerlight and the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon, I've come to the conclusion that the Markerlights will take effect after the affects of the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon has been finished. The reason for this being that the Syphon rule in the GK codex states "Models firing plasma weapons while within 12" of a model with a Syphon will count as BS1." That wording implies an immediate effect. Markerlights however, are not immediate. In point of fact, a Tau player can choose when to use a markerlight for any unit at any point during the Shooting Phase. "Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that has one or more markerlight counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight abilities listed below." And the marker light raises the BS in all cases, not just for Snap Shots or Overwatch.

Now the fact that the Tau unit can choose when and if to shoot, to me, means that their Markerlight ability is far more flexible than the Syphon, which is a passive area effect. The markerlight is not passive, but active.

So, if I were to be in a game against a Tau player and I was using a Syphon, then if the situation arose that my model with a Syphon was within 12" of a unit of FWs (for example), then I'd allow any markerlights to improve his BS accordingly after the Syphon sets it down to BS1 (if he had any markerlights on the Syphon-equipped unit). This seems to make far more sense to me and more fair than any other interpretation that I can find for this ruling.

[DarkLink]

Check the rules for modifiers in the BRB. In a vacuum I might agree with you, but:


Multiple Modifiers: If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifya characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any
additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

Markerlights are an addition modifier, the Syphon is a set value. So this quote clarifies the order.

Somewhere it states that Markerlights can boost the BS of a Snap Shot, but I'm pretty sure that only applies to Snap Shots, and so it doesn't override this case.

[Katharon]

Then boy oh boy is the Syphon useful against plasma-obsessed or based armies. Your previous comment Darklink, about the range being too small, I think is a bit misguided. It's too strong an ability to have it be any greater in effective range. If they made it 18"-24", this thing would be broken.