Reasons Why Fantasy is Better Balanced than 40k

[ElectricPaladin]

My 5¢

One: Flatter Power Scale

Everything in a game of Fantasy operates on roughly the same scale. Only rarely - if you were to pit the lowest Strength against the highest Toughness in the game - will you end up with a situation in which Model A can't possibly harm Model B. Compared to the way vehicles work in 40k, this creates a situation where everything is a matter of risk and reward. Even your giant could be taken out by a sufficiently lucky peasant. However, there is no way that even the luckiest Strength 4 model could ever possibly take out an AV 11 vehicle. No way, no how.

Two: Squishy Armor

40k's armor system is all feast or famine. Either your armor protects you, in which case the power of the attack is completely irrelevant, or it doesn't, in which case the model is dead. In Fantasy, armor is simply modified by the Strength of the attack. Thus, a heavily armored model is always heavily armored. Unless his armor is completely abrogated by the attack - which isn't going to happen very often - he always has a better chance of surviving a blow than a more lightly armored target. There are attacks that automatically bypass armor saves, but they are relatively rare and you pay for them. There isn't really such a thing as a battle cannon - a large blast that makes anything short of a terminator squad evaporate. Barring magic...

Three: Magic Risk vs. Reward

A lot of people are critical of Fantasy's magic system as overpowered, and I'm probably not the best person to comment on this. I happen to love magic. My two armies - Lizardmen and Vampire Counts - contain some of the best magicians in the game. That said I personally enjoy how magic works in Fantasy. I appreciate the way that spells have to be cast and can be countered. The miscast table adds a lot of additional balance, as a poorly cast spell can theoretically blow up the wizard and his entire unit. Compared to Perils of the Warp - which is basically a paper tiger - you have a significant reason to consider not casting a spell.

Four: Limited Mobility

Models in fantasy move more slowly and with less flexibility than models in 40k. This means that no matter how broken your deathstar is, your ability to dominate the battle with it is limited. If I can outmaneuver you or trick you into blocking terrain, I can just ignore the freaking thing. The same isn't true of 40k, in which models can jump into transports - potentially even flyer or skimmer transports - and end up anywhere on the board within turns.

[Mr Mystery]

Yep, I'd agree. Magic in particular.

Yes, a well timed, IF Purple Sun on the higher casting value can wipe out a significant portion of my Ogre army, but hey, let's look at that...

1. You need to actually roll up the spell.
2. Power Dice are considered essential for spell casting. Average is 7 a turn....
3. You then need to match the casting value. A lot easier said than done. Chuck the full 6 at it, and you're reducing the rest of your damage potential.
4. As your opponent, I can dispel it. Either with my scroll (hurrah!) or my dispel dice.
5. You need to achieve all of that, having not only landed yourself in a decent casting position, but also having landed yourself in a decent casting position without getting your legs pulled off and shoved up your nose.

If, after all that, you do end up magicing a large portion of my army off the board? Well, fair play to you skip. You've earned it!

There's also the 'house of cards' affect in Warhammer. Your General and BSB tend to be cornerstones of your army. If they can be removed, your force suffers horribly (and not just Undead). Ld drops (mostly), and no re-rolls to Psych or Break tests can hurt, especially if you've factored them heavily into your battle plan. And there's a number of ways this can happen. This simply doesn't occur in 40k.

[Wildeybeast]

Magic has some OP spells, but as Mystery says, you don't get them off that often. Taking account of you opponents dispel dice and poor rolls on your part, it's rare to get more than one spell cast a turn. Then there are those pesky dispel scrolls. Sure you'll irresistible the odd game breaker of a spell, but those moments are memorable because they are rare.

I agree with all EP's points.

[ElectricPaladin]

There's also the 'house of cards' affect in Warhammer. Your General and BSB tend to be cornerstones of your army. If they can be removed, your force suffers horribly (and not just Undead). Ld drops (mostly), and no re-rolls to Psych or Break tests can hurt, especially if you've factored them heavily into your battle plan. And there's a number of ways this can happen. This simply doesn't occur in 40k.

In my experience - thus far - this operates a lot like break tests and sweeping enemy units off the table if you catch them fleeing. It just speeds up the game by having the inevitable happen right away.

[Learn2Eel]

I think I agree. You don't see as big a gulf between books in Fantasy as you do in 40K. That doesn't stop there being imbalances, of course. Warriors of Chaos are the common netlist-bait army for a good reason, and Tomb Kings are noticeably weaker than the other 8th Edition books. But as far as magic goes, I kind of disagree. Mystery makes a good case, undoubtedly, but you hear about a lot of competitive games decided by a player 6-dicing a mega spell that wins the game, caring little about the likely miscast. The most notable of these lately is the Cacophony 'Choir' from Slaanesh Daemons.

Basically, a Keeper of Secrets rolls up Cacophony and, with Movement 10, marches directly into the middle of the opposing army. It then 6-dices Cacophony and, if it goes off, that's good game. I'm deadly serious. That one action single-handily wins the game for the Daemon player, right on turn one. Now, Fantasy is a lot more about luck than 40K, and movement and positioning are from my personal experience a lot more important. That makes it more of a thinking man's game and one that is a lot less reliant on having the "superior" army list. But I think the mega spells just create a bit of a schism. Sure, they take a lot to cast, and the miscast if you do 6-dice and irresistible force them can be really bad. However, too often do you see games decided by one Cacophony, or one Purple Sun, or one Dweller's Below. And this wouldn't be too much of an issue if they were more risky to cast. But as it is, you see a lot of competitive players just throwing caution to the wind because they know the repercussions won't be nearly as bad as the end result, and just throw six dice at their mega spell. To me, that isn't good game design.

That's really my only major criticism of Fantasy. I'm not saying that magic is over-powered, mind, but it is far too easy nowadays to get a mega spell off, grit your teeth through a miscast, and watch as it wins the game for you right there and then.

Just a note on the 'best casters' you raised EP, as it pertains to your army. If you want to dominate magic with Vampire Counts, I wouldn't upgrade a Vampire Lord to a level 4 - while it is good to save points, it is too risky to do some of the spells you will really want at a given time - but instead take a level 4 Master Necromancer, put him in whatever unit, and run one or two Mortis Engines with the Reliquary upgrade. That is what I call magic dominance! Tomb Kings put out a crazy good 'Light Council" and are generally better overall magic-users than the other 8th Edition books, while High Elves have probably the best Arcane Item from any of the hard-backs.

[Chronowraith]

But as far as magic goes, I kind of disagree. Mystery makes a good case, undoubtedly, but you hear about a lot of competitive games decided by a player 6-dicing a mega spell that wins the game, caring little about the likely miscast. The most notable of these lately is the Cacophony 'Choir' from Slaanesh Daemons.

I'm going to disagree. I know this is anecdotal, but then so is your evidence to the contrary.

I play WFB competitively both locally and nationally. Typically I play one tournament a month locally and 2-3 national tournaments a year. Since 8th edition dropped I have NEVER had one of the "power" spells singlehandedly decide the game. I have had them make easy wins a challenge. I've had them make losing games even worse. I've never had an evenly matched game where I felt that a single spell decided the game. I have plenty of opportunities with my Skaven (Curse of the Horned Rat), Warriors of Chaos (Purple Sun and Pit of Shades), and Lizardmen (Insert whatever spell you prefer here).

As far as the Cacophony there are ways around it and a good player will spot them easily. First, BEFORE you deploy you'll know if your opponent has a greater daemon of Slaanesh and Cacophony. This allows you to do one of two things to combat the spell - bunch up or spread out. When I say bunch up you keep your units exactly 2-2 1/2 inches apart. This will leave a nice gap between units that the daemon prince can't exploit (since he has to remain 1" apart from all units and his base is too wide to accommodate that. Spreading out is pretty obvious but only works with certain armies that don't rely as much on Inspiring Presence and Hold the Line.

I don't think 2d6 S4 hits on all units within 12" is gamebreaking especially considering the casting cost of 24. Against some armies it won't do much of anything other than slow them down a turn because losing 2d6 models, even if from every unit within 12", amounts to a pittance worth of points. I'd be much more worried about Pit of Shades, Dwellers, Mindrazor, Purple Sun, Curse of the Horned Rat, and other uber spells. Even then, the chance of getting IF on 6 dice is only 26ish percent. That's far from being a guarantee and it's still a risk to the daemon prince itself and also makes the phase largely a wash if you don't get double 6's as your opponent will either scroll it, attempt a dispel, or use something else nasty like a feedback scroll (I usually save those for when my opponent gets a miscast)

[Wildeybeast]

I'd also suggest that if you are playing with people who regularly run that cacophony tactic that you find new gaming buddies. There will always be potential game breaking combos. Most people don't play them because they aren't jerks. The problem there isn't with the rules, it's with the players.

[Mr Mystery]

Plus, Keeper of Secrets legs it out in front of my army, and sings his little song. Bunch of stuff potentially dies.

Then I gank him enmasse. That's a lot of victory points to me for precious little effort.

So all swings and roundabouts, which is the joy.

In 40k, there are certain combos people fear, whether justified or not. In Warhammer, not so much.

And another 'strike' against Magic being game breaking (although of course not applicable to the above situation really) is that your Lores must be pre-selected at the time you write your list. It seems many players have forgotten/chosen to ignore this particular rule. There's no more rocking up to a table, seeing what your opponent has deployed and how, then choosing the most advantageous Lore to combat that. Gone with Lore of Metal? Turns out your opponent is running a Skaven army, not really noted for it's high armour saves? Ah well, better luck next time.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm going to disagree. I know this is anecdotal, but then so is your evidence to the contrary.

I play WFB competitively both locally and nationally. Typically I play one tournament a month locally and 2-3 national tournaments a year. Since 8th edition dropped I have NEVER had one of the "power" spells singlehandedly decide the game. I have had them make easy wins a challenge. I've had them make losing games even worse. I've never had an evenly matched game where I felt that a single spell decided the game. I have plenty of opportunities with my Skaven (Curse of the Horned Rat), Warriors of Chaos (Purple Sun and Pit of Shades), and Lizardmen (Insert whatever spell you prefer here).

As far as the Cacophony there are ways around it and a good player will spot them easily. First, BEFORE you deploy you'll know if your opponent has a greater daemon of Slaanesh and Cacophony. This allows you to do one of two things to combat the spell - bunch up or spread out. When I say bunch up you keep your units exactly 2-2 1/2 inches apart. This will leave a nice gap between units that the daemon prince can't exploit (since he has to remain 1" apart from all units and his base is too wide to accommodate that. Spreading out is pretty obvious but only works with certain armies that don't rely as much on Inspiring Presence and Hold the Line.

I don't think 2d6 S4 hits on all units within 12" is gamebreaking especially considering the casting cost of 24. Against some armies it won't do much of anything other than slow them down a turn because losing 2d6 models, even if from every unit within 12", amounts to a pittance worth of points. I'd be much more worried about Pit of Shades, Dwellers, Mindrazor, Purple Sun, Curse of the Horned Rat, and other uber spells. Even then, the chance of getting IF on 6 dice is only 26ish percent. That's far from being a guarantee and it's still a risk to the daemon prince itself and also makes the phase largely a wash if you don't get double 6's as your opponent will either scroll it, attempt a dispel, or use something else nasty like a feedback scroll (I usually save those for when my opponent gets a miscast)


I'd also suggest that if you are playing with people who regularly run that cacophony tactic that you find new gaming buddies. There will always be potential game breaking combos. Most people don't play them because they aren't jerks. The problem there isn't with the rules, it's with the players.


Plus, Keeper of Secrets legs it out in front of my army, and sings his little song. Bunch of stuff potentially dies.

Then I gank him enmasse. That's a lot of victory points to me for precious little effort.

So all swings and roundabouts, which is the joy.

In 40k, there are certain combos people fear, whether justified or not. In Warhammer, not so much.

And another 'strike' against Magic being game breaking (although of course not applicable to the above situation really) is that your Lores must be pre-selected at the time you write your list. It seems many players have forgotten/chosen to ignore this particular rule. There's no more rocking up to a table, seeing what your opponent has deployed and how, then choosing the most advantageous Lore to combat that. Gone with Lore of Metal? Turns out your opponent is running a Skaven army, not really noted for it's high armour saves? Ah well, better luck next time.

Sorry if I didn't explain the spell properly :) A lot of people I know have never even heard of it!

Cacophony also confers Random Movement (D6) and Always Strikes Last onto every unit in its bubble effect. That plus the 2D6 wounds no armour saves is crazy enough as it is due to the insane advantage it gives you over the movement phase. That's before I even mention all those Movement 10 Fiends that run up in support of the Keeper of Secrets and a free Fiend is added to the unit for every 6 rolled for each model killed by Cacophony! It is also a hex and thus can be cast when the Keeper gets into combat.

It obliterates pretty much any chaff unit it touches. It slaughters heavy cavalry and other elite units that rely on high armour saves, as well as monsters. It puts a decent dent in your rank and file, and then it stops them from doing pretty much anything for a turn in terms of movement. This gives the Daemon player an entire game turn to position his stuff while your units flail about. It is game winning because that one game turn of movement restriction gives the Daemon player a massive advantage. Now, undoubtedly it *does* have its downsides. If the spell doesn't go off, the Keeper and the Fiends are likely to die. But if it does.....Well let's just say that getting it off once is bad enough.

@Chronowraith
I understand, you have a lot more experience than I do in Fantasy but when I see things like the Cacophony tactic that win games by themselves, as well as mega spells thrown around in a lot of tournaments, I just can't help but think there should be a greater risk to it. The problem is that miscasting for a lot of spell-casters in the game simply isn't that bad. I roll up Dweller's Below. I throw 6 dice at it on the first turn actually *hoping* to cast it with irresistible force, because the reward is far greater than the risk. That is my problem with the mega spells. You hear about it a lot with people just throwing caution to the wind and 6-dicing mega spells because they know that as bad as the miscast will be, it won't be nearly as bad as the damage it causes to the opponent. I just think they should introduce a more potent risk for casting a mega spell to stop so many people from just 6-dicing spells like Cacophony to win the game.

@Wildeybeast
I don't begrudge people for playing the army list they want whatsoever. If I bring a friendly list with the expectation that my opponent is also bringing a friendly list as we agreed earlier, I might be disappointed if they then show up with a tournament list to deliberately stomp me. But that is only because they were disingenuous and tried to resort to that to beat me.
The problem is that 40K and Fantasy aren't designed with competitive play in mind, so the rules are always unbalanced in some form or another. For the most part this isn't so bad with 6th 40K and 8th Fantasy, but there are always still those little abuses that any player - yes, even non-competitive players who play for fun/theme run stuff like the above because they like it - can use.

@Mr Mystery
How are you going to charge him though when everything that is anywhere near him has Random Movement (D6)? You can try shooting him of course, but the guy can be pretty darn tough with the right gifts/spells. The reality is, even if you kill the Keeper, all those free and bought for Fiends are going to be sitting there looking deliciously at your weakened and relatively helpless units. And hell, you really have to rely on war-machines to kill the damn thing at range - or your own magic, of course. Too bad that Skull Cannons are arguably the best cannons in the game and available to the Daemon player in pairs even in games of 1000 points! And what if one of your random movement units gets into combat with it? It's a Greater Daemon, and your unit will have Always Strikes Last.

And there are combos that people fear in Fantasy, mate. There's the Cacophony Bomb, the Black Knight Bus, the Alarielle Star, the Dragon Prince Star, just to name a few. You don't hear about them often but they are incredibly brutal and, against many armies, absolutely unfair.

As far as selecting the lores go, I don't really see it as that much of a 'strike'. If you take Shadow/Death/Life you are always going to get great benefits from it. Light and Beasts are great if you have a list built around them. Metal, Fire and Heavens are situational, everyone knows that. If you have access to and pick the more balanced lores like Shadow or Life, there is almost never going to be a game where you don't get useful spells from it.


Again, that's about my only real issue with Fantasy. I'm getting more into it lately and I'm having a ball. It is great fun and a much more tactical game than Fantasy. But like 40K, it has its issues, and game-changing mega spells with little real backlash for what you get are my chief gripe.

[Metacarpi]

I'm fine with the magic this edition - I don't think I've ever experienced a game that was utterly finalised by Magic, and I've certainly never seen any of my group annihilate someone with a "6" spell.

I think it's one of those cases where when it does happen - it's such an unlikely occurence that people shout out about it. Nobody complains when people get the "1" spells off, so it ends up creating a perception of bias.

You see more people talking about being tabled by "6" spells, simply because nobody talks about them otherwise. Thus it seems that it's a common occurence.

It's a bit like thinking life is all doom and gloom because it's only ever bad news stories in the headlines - it's simply not the case! :)

[Learn2Eel]

That's probably fair enough. I dunno, I guess I've just read/seen so much about the 'Cacophony Bomb' that it's coloured my perceptions a lot, particularly as a relative newcomer to Fantasy.

[Chronowraith]

Sorry if I didn't explain the spell properly :) A lot of people I know have never even heard of it!

Cacophony also confers Random Movement (D6) and Always Strikes Last onto every unit in its bubble effect. That plus the 2D6 wounds no armour saves is crazy enough as it is due to the insane advantage it gives you over the movement phase. That's before I even mention all those Movement 10 Fiends that run up in support of the Keeper of Secrets and a free Fiend is added to the unit for every 6 rolled for each model killed by Cacophony! It is widely considered one of the most broken spells in the game for a reason, and yes, tournaments and games are won based off of that spell. It is also a hex and thus can be cast when the Keeper gets into combat.

@Chronowraith
I understand, you have a lot more experience than I do in Fantasy but when I see things like the Cacophony tactic that win games by themselves, as well as mega spells thrown around in a lot of tournaments, I just can't help but think there should be a greater risk to it. The problem is that miscasting for a lot of spell-casters in the game simply isn't that bad. I roll up Dweller's Below. I throw 6 dice at it on the first turn actually *hoping* to cast it with irresistible force, because the reward is far greater than the risk. That is my problem with the mega spells. You hear about it a lot with people just throwing caution to the wind and 6-dicing mega spells because they know that as bad as the miscast will be, it won't be nearly as bad as the damage it causes to the opponent. I just think they should introduce a more potent risk for casting a mega spell to stop so many people from just 6-dicing spells like Cacophony to win the game.

I know what Cacophony does. I even mentioned the other effects of the spell and that the random movement is the biggest effect of the spell. ASL doesn't really matter unless you are playing with High Elves or Dark Elves. Why? Because almost everything else in the game has a lower initiative than most of the daemons in the list unless it is a Slaanesh/Nurgle hybrid. Even then, striking last is only a deficit if your opponent outnumbers you, which daemons rarely do (unless you are playing Elves or Chaos).

What you aren't taking into account is this... with a 26% chance of getting irresistible force each cast if you roll up an uber spell and just toss 6 dice at it every turn you are essentially wasting your magic phase.

Additionally, a Keeper of Secrets isn't cheap, especially if you try and give it a good chance to roll cacophony. Then, because there is no way to get Loremaster or an ability to pick spells, you may not even roll the spell. The scenario is one driven by luck and no good player is going to base their tactics around luck. Sure, you may win a game because your luck aligned. In a tournament setting though, this will not see you through to the end since you play multiple games. So winning one game by luck, hell we'll just say two for giggles, then your luck will eventually fall out somewhere by not rolling the spell, being sniped by a cannon in turn one, or failing to cast and suddenly you are back towards the bottom of the stack again. Electric Paladin's Lizardmen for example.. could care less about ASL.. they practically have it already with their wonderful Initiatives of 1 or 2 on their power units.

In order for Cacophony to work you have to
1) Sink a lot of points into a single model with really only a ward save to protect them. (480pts minimum)
2)You have to actually roll up Cacophony (~33% chance when accounting for possible doubles)
3) You have to survive to your first turn (variable, depends on opponent or the 50% chance or so to win first turn)
4) You have to roll enough dice on winds of magic (72%)
5) You have to successfully cast the spell (29% success for IF, 28% for normal cast)
6) If it was a normal cast you have to hope your opponent doesn't dispel or scroll it. I'd scroll it personally.

If you factor in all of the probabilities above, and I'm being generous, you have roughly a 10% chance of everything coming together. That doesn't even factor in your opponent will see this tactic coming from a mile away and will have prepared his army for it through deployment.



@Mr Mystery
How are you going to charge him though when everything that is anywhere near him has Random Movement (D6)? You can try shooting him of course, but the guy can be pretty darn tough with the right gifts/spells. The reality is, even if you kill the Keeper, all those free and bought for Fiends are going to be sitting there looking deliciously at your weakened and relatively useless units. And hell, you really have to rely on war-machines to kill the damn thing at range - or your own magic, of course. Too bad that Skull Cannons are arguably the best cannons in the game and available to the Daemon player in pairs even in games of 1000 points! And what if one of your random movement units gets into combat with it? It's a Greater Daemon, and your unit will have Always Strikes Last.


Most armies won't need to charge him. They'll shoot him with Warmachines, ranged weapons, etc and take advantage of their own magic phase to ensure the demise of the keeper of secrets. Now admittedly the keeper of secrets can be pretty resilient with a little luck, but T6 with the standard daemon ward isn't going to protect him in the long run.

I'll give you an example here using my Skaven army. We'll say that luck is on the side of the Daemons and everything comes together and he manages to get up to my army and cause some damage. If I've properly deployed I still have 2 Warpfire Throwers which were kept back but would now be in threat range, 2 Warp Lightning Cannons, and two Doomwheels I can roll into or nearby the keeper of secrets. In fact, the addition of random movement to my units makes it easier for the doomwheels to get in there and do there job as Random d6 allows my units to move in the compulsory phase at the same time as my doomwheels and move further backwards since random movement allows for a free pivot (pick a direction and roll).

Certainly there are combos in Fantasy that inspire fear. But unlike many other games... these combos do not make or break the game. They still rely on good generalship in order to be effective.

[Learn2Eel]

I was more talking to the other two, they didn't seem to know about the other effects. Elves are increasingly popular so it isn't a bad thing to have.
I am.....I know it is not guaranteed to go off. What I am referring to is what happens when it does go off which is what I don't like.

I think you misunderstand my posts mate. I'm not trying to say it is some guarantee that you get them/that it goes off, etc, but when they do go off, they are/can be game-changing, and Cacophony seems to be one of the worst that I have seen. I've read up on so many forums with people playing all different armies complaining incessantly about it.

Hence why I said it wasn't without downsides......But I simply *despise* these massive game-changing spells in terms of concept. It doesn't seem right that one spell can have such a profound effect on the game, but this may be my 40K background coming through.

Sorry if that wasn't clear, but yes, I agree that the chances of it all going splendidly aren't the highest. But I've seen/read it too often to know that it is game-winning when it does go off, and I don't like that aspect of a game when a player can just go and *hope* for an irresistible force.

[Learn2Eel]

Sorry, by the way! I'm often not very good at communicating my point well. I kept referring to people 6-dicing spells but I didn't clarify that I was talking about when they do go off and the fact that a lot of people do that stuff and use tactics like that.

[Metacarpi]

That's fair - I think my perceptions were coloured there!

Seeing so many people moan about uber-spells being 6diced with IF that tickled the casting wizard, yet wiped out their army every single game*cough*Whineseer*cough* - I assumed you were doing the same!

It's hard getting across intent with this here black and white text, isn't it? :)