What's up with the 40K community?

[xbenblasterx]

So how come we guy's are so much louder than anyone else?

Undoubtedly, 40K and Warhammer Fantasy are the two ring leaders within the tabletop wargaming market and as a result no doubt boast the largest communities and player bases.

Yet many people argue that other systems such as Warmachine and Hordes are growing to 40k scale rapidly and have recently become extremely popular, the same could even be said for Infinity. All of these systems can especially Warmachine since they've been around for over ten years now could possibly say that their respective communities are becoming comparable to that of GW's systems and yets why is it news on either 40k or Fantasy that always dominates our headlines? Why is there not as much fan service for other systems.

Is it simply because Privateer Press run such a smooth ship there isn't really a whole lot to discuss and GW is always finding ways to rile us up. I dunno I just think that 40k and fantasy communities seem so much more active that there counterparts. Especially on this forum in particular.

Do you guys feel the same? Or am I completely misguided and need to look harder!

[Deadlift]

I dont really know about other areas, but in my area nobody plays anything but 40k. I think it's also the "gateway" to wargaming for many who play other games, so whilst people who play Infinity, x-wing and Warmahordes etc they may also play GWs games too (except LOTR /Hobbit :) )

[Popsical]

I think youll find the flames of war community is huge also.
FOW has its own dedicated forum which caters solely for the system, there is quite often a hard core of gamers that have stopped buying GW for many reasons (especially in historical wargaming) who prefer to use forums free of GW news and gossip.
To be honest if i could find a local group of FOW players i would move away from 40k more.
My group however staunchly refuse to do anything but GW.

[chicop76]

I tried Warmachine and what I complained about in 40k was even more so in Warmachine. In 40k you can still win with a sucky list. In Warmachine that is not the case.

That being said if 40k was like warmachine except rules wise I would like 40k much better. I think warmachine is stil trying to please it's customer base, while 40k aka walmart games know they have their customers and could care less.

The fact I can bit order and I get decent boxed packs with warmachine makes them more attractive. However I thought 40k was complicated. The most op army in Warmachine and hordes makes necrons and grey knights look balanced.

I do notice the last two edition s 40k have been trying to be more like warmachine in the rules. Honestly I wish they try to stay original and don't copy off warmachine at all. If they are too much like warmachine than I can play warmachine.

[YorkNecromancer]

Like Deadlift says, I think it's just popularity.

The more popular something gets, the more vocal people get about the problems. The more niche, the fewer complaints, because seriously - who's going to care?

"What, you're complaining about how broken the Viktorias are? Well... wait, are we talking about Warmachine? Malifaux? What's that?"

Complaining about GW has always been the unspoken "fourth leg" of the hobby (after gaming, modelling and painting). You'll know Warmachine has truly made it when people start to complain more than they talk about how much they love it.

[chicop76]

I think youll find the flames of war community is huge also.
FOW has its own dedicated forum which caters solely for the system, there is quite often a hard core of gamers that have stopped buying GW for many reasons (especially in historical wargaming) who prefer to use forums free of GW news and gossip.
To be honest if i could find a local group of FOW players i would move away from 40k more.
My group however staunchly refuse to do anything but GW.

I seen fow pop up at a lot of stores. It is much cheaper than 40k and looks fun. The only draw back is getting in a game at some places.

[Popsical]

Weird isnt it, that folk moan endlessly about granny and her total disregard for the players/consumers, but they often wont try anything new.
Even when GW are far more expensive and folk whine about that too. Odd.

[Brakkart]

I think part of it has to do with variety. We are so much more vocal about discussing 40k because there is so much more of it to discuss. I don't play Warmahordes so I apologise if my numbers aren't precise, but from what I have read of it there are something like 6 factions for Warmachine and about the same number of factions for Hordes for a grand total of 12ish factions. Now we can double that on just the most popular Space Marine armies alone, without counting in the various Craftworlds, Hive Fleets, Traitor forces, Qabals and Imperial Guard regiments and that's before we get onto forces that have barely featured in models or not featured at all like a huge number of the Xenos races that we know are in the 40k universe as well as forces like the AdMech (only just starting to really be covered).

Part of the way that PP have built their game is to introduce a unit and have a model for it right away. GW on the other hand have mentioned literally dozens of units, vehicles and characters that do not have models or rules for them in their various books (both game and Black Library publications) which leaves a lot of room for discussion, interpretation, wishlisting and such all of which generates threads on these and other forums.

[Mr Mystery]

GW suffers from 'hobby hipsters'.

They can be found in vast numbers over on Dakka.

They can be spotted by a vociferous dislike for GW, and treat those who have the temerity to actually enjoy the hobby they've sunk countless of hours and thousands of their local currency into like frothing lunatics with some kind of infectious mental disorder.

Nothing GW does is ever good enough, and they compare those who disagree as battered spouses defending their abuser (real comparison!), whilst failing to admit that the second GW do something they've been demanding (such as digital books), it's instantly some kind of carefully calculated and entirely personal kick in the 'nads.

Nobody has ever worked out why, as their complaints are so fluid, it's hard to keep track of precisely what the whinge of the month actually is.

[Popsical]

40ks fluff is far better and available in pretty much every book store in the world now often as best sellers.
Warmahordes just cant match that, and probably never will.
Historical games are the only ones to match or beat that, WW2 being the most popular game, ACW being the most written about.

MM, losing games is the main reason for the hate. To many losses and the moaners must find fault in the game.

[Deadlift]

40ks fluff is far better and available in pretty much every book store in the world now often as best sellers.
Warmahordes just cant match that, and probably never will.
Historical games are the only ones to match or beat that, WW2 being the most popular game, ACW being the most written about.

MM, losing games is the main reason for the hate. To many losses and the moaners must find fault in the game.

Actually that is a really good point you've made. The depth of story and background in both 40k and Fantasy is a huge reason why I got into wargaming. Walk into any bookstore in any town and I bet you can find a Black Library book. I can't say I have ever seen a Warmachine / iron kingdoms book ever.

[Popsical]

The horus heresy books are huge now, read by non gamers as well as gamers.
I just wish they would do a 10 book series about the badab war, my inspiration for 40k.
Fantasy... meh. Lord of the rings has all fantasied me out.

[Mr Mystery]

Try the Gotrek and Felix saga. It's brill. Apart from Giantslayer.

Think I'll start from the beginning again!

I think the biggest pull of GW background is that it's just that. A background. It's not limited to a canonical story line. Whether Warhammer or 40k, the mythos means we as players can carve out our own tales of glory, horror, derring do, treachery or what have you. Literally nothing is off limits. Warp travel allows for time travel as well as any given race running into another. Other games just don't have that. For historical gamers, all well and good. But Warmahordes? You can't even create your own general. They're all named. There just isn't the room to really go and seek your own glory.

The historical events are tiny compared to the scope of the settings they occur in. It's sandbox gaming at its very very best.

[Popsical]

I think i did wfb to death in the 80's (1500 old metal citadel figs at the time) the game and its fluff just doesnt fire my imagination anymore.
Love the bloodbowl books tho and its fluff, rules and game. Another bloody system my group wont try.

[chicop76]

I disagree. I like warmahordes actually better than 40k.

The only reason I play 40k over warmahordes is due to rule set and money. I have a Retribution army and a Circle army which I really like the fluff behind them. I actually read the warmahordes fluff more. It doesn't come off as everyone is evil and pretty much 40 years has passed and you still stuck in the same time frame, to the point of rewriting history, Eye of Terror rings any bells

Anyway what gets me staying with 40k is that I own thousands of models compared to about a few hundred with warmahordes. I admit I haven't played warmahordes in about 4 years. The problems I had with the game was range and you used each model individually. Which is why split fire is a silly warmachine rule to have since you can already do it with your squads.

The biggest issue is you have 40k type rules and you have additional rules added on making the game more complicated and longer.

Warmahordes isn't bad in a very small game, but large games are annoying to play. 40k is much more simplistic to play.

[Maelstorm]

In my area the Warmachine players far outstrip the Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy groups combined. You'll get 50+ show up for a Warmachine tournament, 12-15 for a Warhammer 40k tournament and 0 for a Warhammer Fantasy tournament. There are growing groups in Dust Warfare and Infinity.

I think the reason you don't see non-GW gamers positing on BOLS is that all of the other gaming systems have their own very active forums. Out of all of the forums, only GW-centric ones are constantly negative on the game and banging away at the forums. A sad but true statement about GW's blatant lack of responsiveness to their customer base when it comes to game questions, rules issues and price gouging.

My 2 cents...

[Popsical]

In what regard does money make you play 40k more?
Youve spent more? Sell some to recoup.
Ive owned every army in 40k at least twice. I now have 1, my painting has steadily improved over the years so my old armies have to go.

[chicop76]

It's the years and time invested into 40k. If I lost all my models I probably would be a lot mote open playing different games.

For example I used to play magic untill all my cards was stolen. Than I switched to marvel vs.

Fast foward years latter no one plays Vs and I am stuck with a bunch of cards. Hince why I really don't want to venture to other companies and occasionally I find myself playing magic again from time to time.

I know I can and still do bit order from warmachine and the company seem to go out of it's way to please customers.

With 40k it seems different. Out of the different games and systems I ever played several 40k gamers come out as elite pricks or duch bags. Let me not go into cheating and rules lawering.

The only game I can recall that was similar in bad customer service was Palladium books. They had an open forun which in all honesty probably got me from stom playing that sysrem.

[lattd]

I think the customisation aspect of warhammer makes it more appealing atleast to me it did, I tried playing hordes and I really enjoyed the background and rules, but I just couldn't connect to my army in the way I do with 40k and fantasy. Maybe it's just me but I find very few PP armies in alternate colours to look that good compared to say a home brew space marine chapter.

[chicop76]

I think the customisation aspect of warhammer makes it more appealing atleast to me it did, I tried playing hordes and I really enjoyed the background and rules, but I just couldn't connect to my army in the way I do with 40k and fantasy. Maybe it's just me but I find very few PP armies in alternate colours to look that good compared to say a home brew space marine chapter.

I agree. Warmachine lacks customization. Not too much a surprise when you see x unit across the board. With 40k you need to know how that unit is equipped. I remember when I first got in the game it seemed you had more options, but 6th is bringing that back which does make the game better.

[SaveModifier]

And remeber, the "growing" Warmahordes community are mostly ex-GW customers, not many people just get into warmahordes, GW is the gateway, they have the shops, run the events, get the kids into it, so its always going to be bigger, the other companies are happy to sit about and pick up those who move on from GW

[SaveModifier]

In my area the Warmachine players far outstrip the Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy groups combined. You'll get 50+ show up for a Warmachine tournament, 12-15 for a Warhammer 40k tournament and 0 for a Warhammer Fantasy tournament. There are growing groups in Dust Warfare and Infinity.

I think the reason you don't see non-GW gamers positing on BOLS is that all of the other gaming systems have their own very active forums. Out of all of the forums, only GW-centric ones are constantly negative on the game and banging away at the forums. A sad but true statement about GW's blatant lack of responsiveness to their customer base when it comes to game questions, rules issues and price gouging.

My 2 cents...

This is frankly, nonsense, ignoring the fact that Warmachine and Hordes are more "tournament friendly" games, designed to appeal to those who want to go to tournaments, its just simply probably not at all true.

And if you ever actually go to those forums for other games, you'd see just as much *****ing and whining as in the 40K ones, the truth is, nerds are horrible people, bitter and entitled, and will complain about anything.

[Psychosplodge]

I think if GW still had their own forums it would probably be quieter...

[Denzark]

How many times do you see comments (more on the BoLS Front Pages tan down here) which go: 'I USED to play 40K and now I have transferred to Warmahordes aka kill the spellcaster, my life got so much betterer!'

OK allow me to retort - why are you still reading about 40K and then bothering to respond if GW/40K is so shoite? If you are totally out of it?

[Mr Mystery]

Hobby Hipsters my friend, Hobby Hipsters.

And don't you dare say you don't enjoy their latest game. They'll freak out on you.

Like Warmachine. Tried it when it first came out, didn't enjoy the mechanics, or sadly the people I played against. So I ditched it.

Apparently, that makes me some kind of gaming anti-christ raised at GW's nippynoos, drinking the sweet sweet koolaid, as opposed to you know, someone with their own, differing opinion based on their own experiences, who hasn't actually criticised the game or it's players, but simply said 'sorry chums, not my bag'

[Morgrim]

GW has the advantages of depth of history - meaning they've had time for their settings to grow and diversify and become very unique in places, rather than totally generic - and in recent years they've heavily diversified. I think the last bit is particularly important because if you don't like or aren't good at the tabletop game you can still participate by reading the Black Library books and being able to talk with the wargamers. Or you can paint and convert and try for Golden Demons. Or you can play Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch. The more options for participation and the more integrated those options are, the greater the pool of people that can get involved.

The fact that GW recruits more heavily than all the others put together probably helps a lot too. With every other game system I've seen people are lured into it by word of mouth or by already being present in a hobby store. If you've never heard of tabletop wargaming and you don't have any friends that play it and you don't have alternate reasons to be in a hobby store (ie it sells some like boardgames or you play a TCG or build model railways or something of that ilk), GW is your only gateway. They're the ones that tell random people on the street that this genre even exists in the first place.

It's kind of how Dungeons and Dragons is the portal to tabletop RPGs; until most people's granny can recognise at least one and have a vague idea what it is about it'll take active recruitment to lure people in, and at the moment GW seems to be the only player big enough to do that on a large scale.

[chicop76]

GW has the advantages of depth of history - meaning they've had time for their settings to grow and diversify and become very unique in places, rather than totally generic - and in recent years they've heavily diversified. I think the last bit is particularly important because if you don't like or aren't good at the tabletop game you can still participate by reading the Black Library books and being able to talk with the wargamers. Or you can paint and convert and try for Golden Demons. Or you can play Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch. The more options for participation and the more integrated those options are, the greater the pool of people that can get involved.

The fact that GW recruits more heavily than all the others put together probably helps a lot too. With every other game system I've seen people are lured into it by word of mouth or by already being present in a hobby store. If you've never heard of tabletop wargaming and you don't have any friends that play it and you don't have alternate reasons to be in a hobby store (ie it sells some like boardgames or you play a TCG or build model railways or something of that ilk), GW is your only gateway. They're the ones that tell random people on the street that this genre even exists in the first place.

It's kind of how Dungeons and Dragons is the portal to tabletop RPGs; until most people's granny can recognise at least one and have a vague idea what it is about it'll take active recruitment to lure people in, and at the moment GW seems to be the only player big enough to do that on a large scale.

I like to add to this point. Games Workshop also have made video games ans MMorgs. You have a lot of new table top gammers that get interested through the video game. For example allying with dawn of war players the other player finds out it is a miniature game and decides to look for it. He finds it and starts as a player

Another factor is games workshop stores are in malls as well. Not too many warmachine games can be found inside a mall.

[Chemiker]

It's just easier to find a group, therefore it makes much more sales due to convenience.

[SaveModifier]

It's just easier to find a group, therefore it makes much more sales due to convenience.

Thats because GW have spent a lot of money making sure you can find people to play with, to sustain their business, by encouraging people to play and having convenient locations to buy from, other companies don't have that expense, which is why you rarely get someone who got in to Infinity by themselves, they almost always came from GW

[GravesDisease]

This comes down to which aspect of the hobby you prefer. Games workshop have incredible kits and have been pumping out amazing mini after amazing mini. Even the oft-insulted Space Marine Centurions are pretty incredible when you assemble some yourself. They have a sense of depth and chunkiness that has been built up, layer by layer, which the net pictures don't convey.

If i had pick a single reason why everyone hates on GW so much is because they are a hobby company not a tournament company. A lot players (note my choice of label) prefer to think of their pastime like a sport and care little whether orks bleed red or green. They yearn for a solid set of rules which are balanced to play small scale games with fixed goal posts. When they see new rules supplement for the new terrain sets they say "Lol, GW wants to shift more building kits" rather than "Yay, specials rules for those buildings i own".