SoR tank company 2,000 points

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Current list that i used last night i will run down tweaks later

Hq command tank
leman russ exterminaor havy bolter sponsons hull mounted las

allied hq
command squad
3-4 x grenade launchers )cheap and just a tax :( they ride in a vendetta or skulk around on foot behind a chimera group

troops
2x chimera mounted veterans chimera multi laser and heavy flamer
vets armed with carapace 2 grenade launchers and auto cannons ( grenade launchers are interhangable with flamers ) remainder or squad eqipped with shotguns.

Leman russ demolisher
hull las cannon sponson multi meltas

Leman russ
hull mounted lascannon sponson heavy bolters

allies troops
2x chimera mounted veterans chimera multi laser and heavy flamer
vets armed with carapace armour 3x plasma and lascanon

Fast attack
1x vendetta

Allied fast attack
1x vendetta

heavy support
Griffon

allied Heavy support
manticore


now what i am thinking is dropping the menticore taking another 2 griffons and spending the other spare points on the comman squad to maybe upgrade to melta guns instead of the grenade launchers. The list last night held its own aginst tau so i think if i make any changes that they would be a small unit by unit swap. i have only begun to really play around with the armoured company list and some of the more unique rules.

So thoughts comments are more then welome. (does not need rated) also anyone with experience running an armoured company list are more then welcome to chime in. I'd love to hear thoughts and comments from some one with experience using the list.

[chicop76]

I rate it 8. I like griffions.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Don't get me wrong i love the manticore but i just think in this list another 2 griffons add more then a single mantiore would. honestly they are the same ap and the str is way different but the acurate bombardment rule makes up for it i believe and the whole 4 shot maximum is very limiting for me.

[chicop76]

I like griffon really. I use one it's the old metal top model with metal crew. I wish I had gotten more, but the old chimera chassis was a pain to put together though.

Anyway I am not a fan putting bolters on leman russes unless it's a punisher. I used melta punishers before.

Since guard is back to firing one weapon on the move again, not really liking the sponsons on the russes.

I would say run some plasma sentines since they don't get love.

I am a fan of platoon squads sporting lascannons. Also like special weapon teams jumping out of vendettas with demo charges and flamers/meltas.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

for me i include them because they were the cheapest upgradeable option and honestly even firing snap shots they can still do damage. i know on the exterminator they continue to be hugely effective. now on the russ i can see the hesitation but i cannot count the number fo times a weapon destroyed result did not take out the battle cannon thanks to the sponsons me i woudl take a punisher in a heart beat if it could be on my command tank or on my commisar tank. but alas they made it a seige tank for some odd reason. i could swap out the demolisher for it but the demolisher has a soft spot in my list where it fills a niche role by being able to deal with horde as well as at and elite infantry that nice big blast and all the ap1-2 love just seems to make opponents squeamish.

Now the griffon i am pretty much sold on their inclusion in my list. I believe i will try and snag 2 bassilisk kits and convert them up. sadly i refuse to pay forgeworld just for a 75pt model lol I just know that putting 3 of them in a list should make even Elite armies hesitate simply due to the number of wounds they will be dishing out throughout the game. And if some one is killing them then their not killing the tanks :)

[chicop76]

I wish I could suggest how to covert a griffon. I know the old chimeras you could make them like a truck. The newer ones you have to cut open. Honestly all you have to do is put a cannon on top and you got yourself a griffon. Well I forgot it's open topped unless you pay the points.

I imagine you can convert a bascalick into on with a smaller cannon. You can use a demolisher cannon I guess and use plastacard tubes to make it longer with some plasta card and green stuff.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i blame GW i seriously do.... they gave us recut boxes for the bassy.... (waste) new russes finally. then they **** the bed... seriously you rebox the sentinel.... take guard boxes from 20-10.... and give us advisors a commisar lord and command squads..... you missed the boat on oh i dunno the rest of the heavy support section... i feel nothing for GW i have no issues buying from other retailers or scratch building my own.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Anyone who has experience against or with the tank company have any experience or words of wisdom that they would like to share?

[chicop76]

Like what. I play mech guard, but not tank company. I love my chimera's that flame those units that like to hide in cover. I am thinking of running more flame weapons, that way I can flame and heavy flame units.

However with my guard I like to move up 18" so I can melta and plasma away. I play rather aggressive with them. If little anti tank I wipl shove my army up the fore front unless the other side have a lot of melta which I just sit back and shoot.

However from experience you should either run a lot of vehicles or have enough non vehicle models to be a threat. Armies like da with 4 meltas a squad can be annoying to deal with.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

game 1 was against a tau gun line. due to poor rolling and some decent luck i was just able to take him apart at range. i didnt have to even move. everything he threw at me i shot to pieces and what was left of his army was very litte. He called it. After looking at it between some luck and some bad luck on his part they did well i had my 2 objectives while he lost his. i didn't even worry about taking his when i was able to sit back and just shoot them to pieces. and now with my switch from the manticore down to 2 more griffons i expect to be able to cause more carnage from turn 1.

[chicop76]

game 1 was against a tau gun line. due to poor rolling and some decent luck i was just able to take him apart at range. i didnt have to even move. everything he threw at me i shot to pieces and what was left of his army was very litte. He called it. After looking at it between some luck and some bad luck on his part they did well i had my 2 objectives while he lost his. i didn't even worry about taking his when i was able to sit back and just shoot them to pieces. and now with my switch from the manticore down to 2 more griffons i expect to be able to cause more carnage from turn 1.

Yeah the griffon can possibly snipe out an ethereal and instant kill it.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

I've always followed the maxim that small arms fire in volume can drop just about any unit in the game. so for me the loss of str10 to get more overall firepower via 2 griffons that can snipe easier and can target 2 different targets was an easy decision to make. that and i know everyone argues troop placement and the whole i can mitigate your large templates sure you can. but the fact that i am able to now have some dictation on your deployment is well worth the loss of an additional 1-2 kills per shot. the way i see it is oh you have to spread your self out that isnt necessarily a bad thing. a unit with a larger footprint can be difficult to hide harder to conceal and will have an impact on cover if all of the unit cannot get into cover because they "don't want to make an easier target for a template" i fiufure if your spreading out i still have more then enough solid shots to drop into you.

as for flamer template weapons, i think i have that in spades as well look at the chimera each of them has a heavy flamer hull mounted the griffons all have heavy flamers. i figure if i get into a fight with a true horde like orks or nids then so be it. i cna griffon them until they get close then flame flame and flame some more.

[chicop76]

If they spread out 2" away it means less look out sirs to soak up the sniping fire. It's actually helpful, also makes it easier to break consolidated models.

Heavy Flamer on a griffon. If the enemy is on your griffon like that you are probably losing. Anyway reminded me when I outflank with my scout sentinel s and a heavy weapons team happen to have power fist. I was like wtf, who puts pf on heavy teams.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i don't think you can put a any upgrades on a heavy weapons team. might want to check that one out. as they don't have sgts its just 3 bases so that one seems out of place. And the heavy flamers are for those pesky out flankers and deep strikers. that and if they do destroy the heavy mortar you now have a tank that can move and flame with the rest of your army so its not entirely useless.

And ya i guess that would be a lesson to teach people who spread out. It would be me saying go ahead and spread out it just means less look out sir roll for your characters and i can still snipe out weapons and specific models :)

[Katharon]

Mounting any sponsons or lascannon hull weapons to a regular Leman Russ or Demolisher is going to be the biggest waste of points that I see in your list. Due to the fact that the Leman Russ no longer is able to fire all its weapons at the same BS, due to losing Lumbering Behemouth which allowed us to fire Ordnance and everything else just fine, you're hardly ever going to make back the points for those upgrades.

Regular Leman Russ with its free heavy bolter is the better option. I would also advise Executioners and Exterminators.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

the thing about the sponsons is they tend to keep my tanks in the fight longer when it comes to weapon destroyed so that is why i have been willing to spend the points on them. and ya i would agree that the points can be spent better on certain russ's variants but you also have the option of not figing the main gun to fire the sponsons and main line guns. In their last battle the demolisher didnt fire so that i could shoot a tau commander who i stripped of his drones and then hit with melta and lascannon fire from the demolisher stripping his last wound :) i know we all love to use the big gun and trust me i do as well. but they can and do come in to their own. and honestly even firing snap shots can be handy depending on the sitiation.

[Katharon]

That is when you shift points over the heavy weapon squads....just saying.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i dunno with so many tanks i feel the heavy weapon squads would be wasted. that and the heavy weapon squads would have to take a chimera due to tank company rules so they become rather pricey quickly. the one thing i have been considering has been dropping the demolisher and swapping it for an executioner or a vanquisher. the vanquisher could stick with the melta and las configuration and be a true long range tank killer. the executioner since its not liable to overheat would replace my ap1 str10 with ap2 str7 blasts. Its just a bit of a toss up. the demolisher works pretty well for me currently being able to demolish most structures and tanks while being able to take chunks out of horde formations as well as elite infantry and str10 insta kills most things.

[chicop76]

i don't think you can put a any upgrades on a heavy weapons team. might want to check that one out. as they don't have sgts its just 3 bases so that one seems out of place. And the heavy flamers are for those pesky out flankers and deep strikers. that and if they do destroy the heavy mortar you now have a tank that can move and flame with the rest of your army so its not entirely useless.

And ya i guess that would be a lesson to teach people who spread out. It would be me saying go ahead and spread out it just means less look out sir roll for your characters and i can still snipe out weapons and specific models :)

I meant space marine heavy weapon teams. The occasional pf shows up when you lictor, marbo, or scout sentinel them and get stuck in combat.

Yeah it is funny that spreading out means dead sergeants.

I like to stick my heavy weapons in my platoon squads since losing one guy can force the whole squad to run off. With a squad you have higher leadership and less chance of running off. Also you can distribute your guns across your armur more. It is cheaper to put 3 lascannons in three different squads than in one squad.

I been trying out chimeras with lascannon vets and they seem to work rather well. I am debating on using 3 grenade launchers with a lascannon in a few chimeras with a few with plasma rifles. I am thinking of doing regular platoon squads with a grenade launcher and missile launcher in chimeras.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i run the vets with the following set ups Auto cannon 3x grenade launchers. this unit and its brother unit can tackle most opponents and threaten light armour and most transports. i believe some people forget you no longer need to pen a tank to kill it :) my other units are lascannon and 3x plasma again these can kill both tanks as well as elite infantry. i've been pairing them one to one and giving them a flank but i could easily swap them over and split them out or spread them amungst my forces. as they are my real scoring bodies i tend to use them and their chimera as a mini bunker. dishing out firepower at range until my opponent closes then dumping in on my opponents as they cross the board.

right now i think i will keep the demolisher in play for another game or 2 just to see how it does. I can easily swap it out for a vanquisher and it will free up some points. i will say i wanted to use a punisher but in other games I've found that its just disappointing ya d20 wahoo... minus the fact that they forget to mention its ap- and only str5 so while its dropping in alot of rounds your still missing half and the ones that do wound always and i mean always give your opponent a save. so for me the fact that its an expensive upgrade i call bull****... seriously make it cheaper then battle cannon or atleast an equivalent other wise no thanks for me.

[Katharon]

As someone who has been running armored battle groups for at least two editions, I can say that the best option is to not dilute the army list with an allied force – especially not allied IG; there is already plenty of the stuff inside the Imperial Armor book worth taking that covers anything the IG codex can give you.

The armored battle group should not be diluted from its power.

Also, since you are at 2k points, the double FoC comes into effect and requires you to take a minimum of two HQs. Let’s not forget that. Here is a list that I would take, feel free to take what you want from it.

HQ

Company Command Tank: Exterminator variant, heavy bolter sponsons, heavy bolter hull mount, Artificer hull, anti-grenade mesh [215]

Company Command Tank: Vanquisher variant, hull lascannon, Artificer Hull, co-axial heavy stubber, Beast-Hunter shells [225]

Troops

Battle Tank Squadron: Leman Russ Battle Tanks, 3 x in squad [450]

Siege Tank Squadron: Thunderer Battle Tank, 3x in Squad, 3 x stormbolters [450]

Armored Fist Squad [105]

Siege Tank Squadron: Executioner variant, 2 x in squad, hull lascannon [410]

Fast Attack

Vulture Gunship: twin-linked autocannon, two multiple rocket pods, infra-red targeting, ilum flares [145]


Total Point Cost: 2,000

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

the thing i think your forgetting is that 2k does not require you to take 2 force orgs its just the minimum for point before you can take 2 lists. and the armored company has plenty of holes that can be filled with allies or by spreading out squadrons. their vets cannot take 3 special weapons their veterans are more expensive. allies is also the way i was able to bring in the 2nd vendetta i could have done it using 2 tank forces as well but i would have to consider what i would loose along with what i would gain. hmmm may have to run those number tonight that would change my train of though currently...hmmm

[Katharon]

the thing i think your forgetting is that 2k does not require you to take 2 force orgs its just the minimum for point before you can take 2 lists. and the armored company has plenty of holes that can be filled with allies or by spreading out squadrons. their vets cannot take 3 special weapons their veterans are more expensive. allies is also the way i was able to bring in the 2nd vendetta i could have done it using 2 tank forces as well but i would have to consider what i would loose along with what i would gain. hmmm may have to run those number tonight that would change my train of though currently...hmmm

Then stop playing the armored battle group. You don't take the Armored Battle Group for veterans. You take it to field a ton of tanks and artillery. Otherwise you are just mixing the pot from different ingredients and getting a bad stew as a result. Create lists that play to the strength of the army lists.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Tweaks made using 2 detachments from armored company. might try swapping one of the exterminators for a vanquisher but not sure yet
HQ1 195pts Red 1
Company Command Tank
Upgrade to Leman Russ Exterminator free
Heavy bolter sponson's
lasCannon hull mount

HQ2 Red 2 195pts
Company Command Tank
Upgrade to Leman Russ Exterminator
Heavy Bolter Sponsons
LasCannon Hull Mount

Troop 1 leman russ battle tank Red3 185pts
leman russ
Las cannon
heavy bolters

Troop 2 Red 4 205pts
Armoured fist veteran squad
chimera transport multi laser and heavy flamer +
5 additional veterans +
Carapace armour +
Auto cannon +
Grenade Launcher x2
shot guns x5
Tank hunters

Troop 3 Red5 205pts
Armoured fist veteran squad
chimera transport multi laser and heavy flamer +
5 additional veterans +
Carapace armour +
Auto cannon +
Grenade Launcher x2
shot guns x5
Tank hunters


Troop 1(Allied) Red6 225pts
Armoured fist veteran squad
chimera transport multi laser and heavy flamer +
5 additional veterans +
Carapace armour +
LasCannon +
Grenade Launcher x2
Tank Hunters

Troop 2(Allied) Red7 225pts
Armoured fist veteran squad
chimera transport multi laser and heavy flamer +
5 additional veterans
Carapace armour +
LasCannon +
plasma guns x2
Tank Hunters

Heavy1 Red8 75
Griffon heavy flamer

Heavy2 Red11 75points
Griffon Heavy Flamer

Heavy3 Red12 75points
Griffon Heavy Flamer

Fast 1 (allied) Red9 130 points
vendetta

Fast 2 Red10 130 points
Vendetta 130

Fast 3 Red13 80 points
Scout Sentinels 35pts
Auto Cannons


And your wrong you don't have to play tons and ton's of tanks for it to be an armored company... the list i just made up represents an armored company list. you take the list to get access to unique tanks as well as not having to take lots and lots of infantry. this list offers a nice balance between infantry and Armour. Both vendettas provide air superiority along with Anti Air options.
The griffons provide the list with 3 large blast templates. with the griffons accurate bombardment rule the templates are highly accurate and very likely to cause some serious damage to most infantry along with offering a chance to damage light AV str6 can glance up to side Armour 12. The veterans provide consistent firepower and their carapace will give them a bit more longevity.

between sentinels and tanks there are 14 pieces of Armour on the table. 12 of them can start out as soon as turn 1. Each piece functions together working to support each other. This is a mechanized list you do not have to have all leman russ tanks to be a tank list.

[Katharon]

First off all, you need to go into that post and edit out the point costs for individual upgrades. Forum rules, bro.

Second, your "Armored Fist Squads" need to be edited. Whatever was doing the calculations for you screwed that one up. Not to mention that a Veteran Squad already comes in a 10-man squad with no requirement to buy extra models to fill it up more (I think that you're thinking of Storm Troopers). And where did you get the idea that Armored Fist Squads get tank hunter from?

Third, I stress, again, that sponsons on a Battle Cannon-armed Leman Russ are a waste of points. Not to mention the fact that there is only one in the squad -- that's just asking to get picked off quick.

Fourth, you have three actual tanks in this new list. Three. That's not an armored company, that's a tank squad attached to a mechanized force. I should know. Seriously, just make a list from the IG codex. You're wasting the Imperial Armor book list on lists like this. This is my honest opinion. You want to *really* use the Armored Battle Group list? Then stop fooling around with infantry.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

check the forgeworld update when they did the faq they gave them tank hunters. 2nd do you have the new book or the old book? the new book has them in a smaller squad and you have to buy 5 more bodies to make them 10.

tank squads armed with artillery are a waste that's my honest opinion. if your dropping 1-3 battle cannons into a squad plus sponsons and hull weapons then that's a waste. the way you have your tanks what do you do with all that firepower once the 1st round kills the squad... you at most can kill 5+ units the whole game with those units that's assuming spacing and cover saves both of you having some reasonable luck. you might be confusing them with armoured fist squads they are 10 standard the vets are 5 standard and you have to pay for the additional bodies just like how you have 2 special weapons and not 3.

So you don't like sponsons thats fine i have found them to to be effective. they are points i have found to be well spent in the past.

And 3 tanks? no you need to read what a tank classification actually is. chimera's are tanks they would classify as light tanks. griffons are tanks as well... they are many types of tanks you have artillery tanks you have light tanks you have medium tanks and heavy tanks. Go and take a look at us armored force classifications. Hell go play flames of war and see the options of a WWII tank company. Just because you do not like the break down of the list i am using does not mean i will suddenly go and take the IG codex because you believe its a better representation.

AC is giving me scoring tanks that would be heavies in a similar guard list. i am getting tank hunters on my veteran squad making the auto gl and plas las combos more effective. i am getting the option to take command tanks which can issue orders to my tanks and to each other instead of being stuck with IG command options. the command structure is different for a reason IG emphasizes squads and more squads. look at the order system infantry supports infantry the rest is there for filler. In the list above the infantry and their chimera transports are there to assists the tanks and to overwhelm enemy AT until the 2 vendettas can arrive. once they arrive they focus on the major threats to my Armour. once that's eliminated the infantry protect the tanks from assaults.
I've been playing this game long enough that i have my reasons for taking the Armoured company... i could say the same about your list your 2k list could be run just as easily from IG codex. the only units that you have that are not matching up are the thunder's which could easily be swapped for demolishers your entire list can be done using the IG codex as well you only have 3 tank troop squads could easily be swapped down to heavy choices in a guard codex. So really your only using the AC list to have better command tank options which aren't in the guard codex and access to the vulture. so really how about you hide your displeasure with me using a tank company to represent a tank company as i wish to play it. you do realize there are medium and light tank divisions. hell i know my flames of war us armoured company had both tanks as well as mounted platoons... it was functional and worked.

[Katharon]

Well, I did read the FAQ but I missed the part where they gave Tank Hunter USR to the Armored Fist Veterans. And I also missed the fact that you put "Armored Fist Veterans" and no "Armored Fist Squad." I think I was still hung up on the idea of you trying to buy IG veterans or something. Also, shotguns aren't that great. I'd drop them if I were you.

You'll notice that I never said I didn't like sponsons. Often times they can very effective -- when put on a tank that's main armament is not a frakking Ordnance weapon.

Chimeras are APCs and Griffons are wannabe SPGs. I am quite aware of the different types of tanks in the world, having served in the military for eight years with the 3-69th, and there is a reason why I am stating that your list is not an Armored Battle Group, but a mechanized one. It might be made from the ABG army list, but its composition is not compatible with that label. If your list included at least two 3-tank squadrons of Leman Russ variants then I would be inclined to give it that label -- but not as it stands.

There is nothing in the "Imperial Armor Volume One - Second Edition" that allows scoring tanks, except for one Warlord Trait that allows only your chosen Leman Russ Warlord-designee (and only it, no units or squadrons).

You're spending extra points and upgrades *just* to get "Tank Hunters" USR? I can think of maybe a handful of times out of the hundreds of games I have played with my Armored Battle Group army list that I have ever thought "you know, if only I had Tank Hunters USR to get that +1 to my armor pens." You kidding me? Considering the sheer amount of firepower that the massed tanks or infantry of the IG (and Imperial Armor ABG list) can dish out in a single turn, makes the giving or taking of an extra +1 on a dice roll so inane and superfluous that I'm kind of shocked by the idea. The only reason you should be taking any infantry in an Armored Battle Group list is for capturing points in objective-based games -- that's it. Otherwise, as I said, you are wasting the power potential of the Armored Battle Group army list in a major way.

Your CCTs can indeed issue orders to other tanks...which won't give you much to do since you only have two frakking other tanks able to receive and follow those orders! Again, I emphasize the fact that the tank label is reserved for those vehicles in the IA book as referenced on page 244 under "Company Command Tank" heading.

So your entire strategy is to rely on the arrival of the Vendettas? That's a bad idea. A really, really bad idea. The better option, if you are going to rely on Vendettas to get your heavy lifting, is to go regular Codex: Imperial Guard. Then you can take an Astropath in a Company Command Squad to get a +1 to your Reserve Rolls and have a better chance of them coming in when you need them. Otherwise you're going to be caught out on the end of the branch and watching helpless as your opponent uses a hack-saw to drop you by Turn 3.

My Armored Company list is impossible to make based on the Codex: Imperial Guard; because it includes ten tanks and a lot of specialized wargear and upgrades only available to Armored Battle Group army list builds. The Thunderers are in there because they are cheaper than Demolishers (by 25 points, or 15 if you get a Storm Bolter to make it more durable) and do the same thing -- not to mention have a shorter profile that can make them harder to target.

My displeasure stems from the fact that you have the mistaken belief that your list is representative of an armored company and that you are using the list itself just to get access to things like Tank Hunters USR. I built the list above based off what has worked best for me in the past; most times I don't even take any infantry or flyers -- just tanks and maybe a Hydra -- but no, if you wanted to see an Codex: IG list from me, it would look greatly different from the one above. I'm not saying that you *have* to take the advice I'm offering and which you solicited, but that its a strange person who asks for opinions and then ignores them when they're proffered.

[chicop76]

Lemon Russell Battle Cannons are quite good. It kills most infantry and instant kill several types of multiple wound models with a great range with an added plus. I rather the basice Russell over the expensive 5 plasma cannon one.

I don't play ac so it is hard for me to make a lot of comments. However since armour is kinda scarce this edition extra points for tank hunter is questionable. If it was tank and mc hunter I woukd say it would be more justifiable.

I can see why take shotguns. Same reason why you would do so with scouts. In my opinion I think shooting an assaulting is a bad ideal in 6th. Its better to overwatch than to get into assault and get overwatched. Love Tau firewarriors with d grenades.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Tank hunters come in handy when you face alot of opponents who still run alot of armour. many of my regular opponents still field tons of armour wether its light armour via devil fish or rihno's or dark eldar venoms heck i even see alot of chimera and other russ tanks in the store and amungst the group i play in. So for me tank hunters is not as wasted point option at all. being able to add that +1 on the pen chart has come in handy and will continue to come in handy.

I have dropped the 2nd command tank to switch it to a vanquisher with las and melta and to do this i dropped the las main from the battle cannon russ to free up those points. i know that if i had the points i would be upgrading the chimeras all to have auto cannon turrents in heart beat the extra fire power and ap value is worth losing a shot a piece.

and i don't rely on the vendettas to deal with armour i rely on them to deal with opposing fliers. i have one guy who runs cron air but currently he is all about his tau so i have been able to scale back my anti air in this list. i know our local dark eldar player has his flers and the pair on them are hard enough to deal with as it.

The vostroyan player takes line infantry supported by tanks. and if i face orks it will be horde orks supported by 2-3 units in trucks meant to cause chaos and havoc until the mobs can show up to dish out the real damage.


As for the chimera and griffons both units have made their points back more times then i can remember and the ability to drop 3 str 6 acurate templates a turn is nothing to sneeze at. their ability to snipe cannot be forgotten nor can you ignore the fact that they can still threaten anything with up to side armour 12. the fact that they aren't grouped together allows them to split their fire and to maxamize their shooting after the rest of the army has either destroyed transports or weaken squads to the point where they are more likely to break.

i know i had to listen to complaints when i ran the manti and 1 griffon so i don't wish to know what they will say when its now 3 griffons dropping templates from turn 1.