Mark of Tzeentch Question

[karandras]

Chaos Space Marine Codex clearly states on the psychic powers page that models with the Mark of Tzeentch may use two powers per turn.

Thousand Sons unit entry in the army list gives the option to add an Aspiring Champion Sorcerer to a squad of Thousand Sons Marines. It also clearly states that all models in the squad have the Mark of Tzeentch. Entry then reads that the Aspiring Champion Sorcerer "Must purchase one" psychic power from the list. The wording is indicitive that you cannot run the sorcerer without purchasing one power.

The question is: Can the Aspiring Champion Sorcerer buy more than one power as the entry states must take one, but doesn't say "only one".

This has not been answered on the GW FAQ. In my experience, I often take the view of the most restrictive ruling, which in this case would be that he can only buy one. I was just curious if anyone had come across this and what they thought?

[MVBrandt]

I do not believe he may buy more than one, but he may use the same power twice if such is allowed, such as gift of chaos.

[Culven]

An Aspiring Sorcerer must buy one power. Nothing says he can select more than one. In addition, being permitted to use two powers does not grant permission to use one power twice. The ability to use two powers means that an aspiring Sorcerer can use their Psychic Power and Force Weapon in the same turn.

[DarkLink]

"Must purchase one power" means that you "must" "purchase one power". Key words being one power. Not one or more powers, but one power.

The only thing the "must" does is require you to do it. It doesn't modify how many powers you may purchase, only that you must purchase the requisite number of powers (meaning one power).

[Xas]

what he can do:
use any psychic power and force weapon some poor one's rear.
use gift of chaos twice (the only one which's text doesnt interfere with any restriction.
force weapon two models into oblivion.


best way to use it:
warptime to make him the most lethal unit champion in power armor and still be able to use force weapon. the best is that his pistol guided by warptime is allmost as deadly to infantry as doombolt :) (hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+ nets you ~1meq kill while one reroll all shot 3+ 4+ also is quite sure to get a kill!).

[Waaagh! Gutgrubba]

id just like to add that u cn use 2 powers PER PLAYER TURN meaning 2 powers in UR TURN nd 2 in
UR OPPONENTS TURN!!!

Also u MUST take an aspiring sorcerer. the unit entry states a MINIMUM of
4 thousand sons w/ aspiring sorcerer.

[Mr. Smith]

I have a question where in the codex does it say that the champion can use the force weapon's ability and whatever physic power you might want?

[Squirrel_Fish]

I have a question where in the codex does it say that the champion can use the force weapon's ability and whatever physic power you might want?

It doesn't say it outright - but the Aspiring Sorcerer has the Mark of Tzeentch, meaning he can use two psychic powers a turn.

[Mr. Smith]

It doesn't say it outright - but the Aspiring Sorcerer has the Mark of Tzeentch, meaning he can use two psychic powers a turn.

Okay, but on on pg. 25 of the codex, it states what the mark does to units, stating that the unit gets an invulnerable save or has it's invulnerable save bumped. We understand that, we're good.

Now On pg. 92 - 93, is where you get a second power because of the mark. But how do we know that that ability is just reserved for HQ choices and not for the aspiring sorcerer. Because on pg. 98 it states that sorcerer just gets one power, not two because of the mark.

[Lord Anubis]

Pages 92-93 are special rules for specific units, not inherent rules for the Mark of Tzeentch.

Page 88 (yeah, it's a screwed up codex) says that any model with the Mark may use two psychic powers per turn.

As mentioned above, don't confuse using two powers with getting two powers.

;)

[Mr. Smith]

Ah gotcha, nice to know.

[Caldera02]

Something you can do with Aspiring Sorceror's is use Warptime twice. Reason being is if you say fail the first time but want to give up using force weapon ability and still retain warptime. Rules do say you cannot use more than one of the same psychic shooting attacks in the same turn but as per the FAQ, warptime can be.

[Culven]

Something you can do with Aspiring Sorceror's is use Warptime twice.
Mark of Tzeentch allows an Aspiring Sorcerer to use two Psychic Powers in a turn. Nothing says that tehy may use the same one twice.


Rules do say you cannot use more than one of the same psychic shooting attacks in the same turn but as per the FAQ, warptime can be.
The only mention I can find in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ of a model trying to use Warptime or Gift of Chaos more than once is in reference to Ahriman, whom I believe has special rules allowing him to use powers multiple times (with the exception of shooting powers). This ruling for Ahriman does not apply to Aspiring Sorcerers.

[Caldera02]

Mark of Tzeentch allows an Aspiring Sorcerer to use two Psychic Powers in a turn. Nothing says that tehy may use the same one twice.

Nothing says they cannot either with the exception of psychic shooting attack in which the Ahriman rule sets the precedent for.




The only mention I can find in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ of a model trying to use Warptime or Gift of Chaos more than once is in reference to Ahriman, whom I believe has special rules allowing him to use powers multiple times (with the exception of shooting powers). This ruling for Ahriman does not apply to Aspiring Sorcerers.

If you actually read the Answer to the Ahriman question, it doesn't address him by name, it addresses the general rule. It specifically says you can cast gift of chaos and warptime multiple times. It even goes so far as to say there is no point of casting warptime multiple times because it assumes you pass it in the first place.

[Culven]

Nothing says they cannot either with the exception of psychic shooting attack in which the Ahriman rule sets the precedent for.
40K rules don't work that way. There needs to be something permitting a model to use a power more than once for it to be allowed. Mark of Tzeentch says that the model may use two powers, not that it may use one power twice. Do you allow a Monsterous Creature with a single ranged weapon to fire it twice? It would be the same logic of interpreting "may use two somethings" as permitting "using something twice".


If you actually read the Answer to the Ahriman question, it doesn't address him by name, it addresses the general rule. It specifically says you can cast gift of chaos and warptime multiple times. It even goes so far as to say there is no point of casting warptime multiple times because it assumes you pass it in the first place.
The question specifically refers to Ahriman, who has a special rule allowing him to use multiple Psychic Powers and even allows him to use some more than once. There is nothing in the FAQ answer that implies or states that any model with Mark of Tzeentch is granted permission to use the same Psychic Power more than once, so it would seem that the answer is directly related to the question and only applies to Ahriman.

[OnFyre]

Here's how I see it.
Unless otherwise specified, psykers have one 'psi point' per turn. (took the phrase off space hulk, doesn't relate to anything in game). Using a regular psychic ability (e.g. Warptime) costs one point. One swing with a force weapon costs one point. Using a psychic shooting attack (e.g. Doombolt) costs one point and counts as (one of) your shooting attack(s) for the turn (if you're a monstrous creature).

Anyone with the mark of tzeentch can do any two of these things that they could normally do.

[Culven]

OK. Had a read of the Psychic Powers rules and Ahriman's rules. Neither of them say that a model can use the same power twice. The FAQ is the only place it is stated. Does this mean that the FAQ has changed the rule, or is it simply another case of the FAQ writer not knowing the rules?

[Lord Anubis]

As mentioned above, the FAQ is referring specifically to Ahriman. He does not follow the rules for the Mark of Tzeentch, he uses his own rule for the Black Staff.

So, technically, yes, the FAQ does change the rules. For Ahriman. And only for Ahriman.

[Caldera02]

Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?

A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!

So for those of us that can read english, where in that answer does it say Ahriman? Oh that's right, it doesn't. It specifically address psychic powers in general. So please tell me why this answer is worded this way if only to pertain to Ahriman? Does this wording also now perclude Chaos Sorceror's from casting multiple spells?

[Orminah]

I concur with Caldera. Thought the question may point to Ahriman, the answer is very broad and pertains to psychic powers as a whole. That being said, you can do it, but it's a risky move.

[Culven]

OK. I will concede that the answer isn't specifically focused on Ahriman.

Now, for those of you whom can read English, where in the rulebook or codex does it say that a model permitted to use two powers a turn can use one power twice? Without any rule stating that one power used twice is equivalent to two powers, I do not believe it is permitted. The FAQ may have intentionally changed this, or it may very well be an error. Without anything in the core rules, I am inclined to believe it is yet another error caused by someone not understanding the rules. Additionally, the answer is in the FAQ section, not the Errata section (where rule changes are supposed to be found).

[Orminah]

There's no need to be rude. And in this case, if it came from GW, it came from the company who made the game, so we must accept it. Until they come out and fix their boo-boo, of course.

[Culven]

There's no need to be rude.
It wasn't directed at you. I was just responding in kind to Caldera02.

And in this case, if it came from GW, it came from the company who made the game, so we must accept it. Until they come out and fix their boo-boo, of course.
I can see your point. I just think it odd the way it is phrased in the FAQ, as though it is common knowledge that "may use two powers" allows one power twice. I don't see anything in the INATFAQ concerning this. Seems strange that it would be in GW's FAQ, but not the INATFAQ when the GW FAQ is supposedly written by Yakface.

[Orminah]

Well, at least now Tyranid players everywhere can shove even more laughs into the faces of Thousand Sons players everywhere. I hope that Chaos will get a new, less confusing codex when it is their time.

[Nabterayl]

Moreover, the psyker section of the rulebook does say that a power may not be used twice. Granted it says that in the psychic shooting powers section, but it doesn't say that psychic shooting powers may not be used twice - only that the same power may not be used twice.

[Orminah]

It's still a technical thing then. Because in that case, it's refering to the fact that a model that isn't a MC can only fire one weapon per turn.

[crazyredpraetorian]

This is very interesting......:D

[Nabterayl]

It's still a technical thing then. Because in that case, it's refering to the fact that a model that isn't a MC can only fire one weapon per turn.
I don't mean to be dense, but can you rephrase this with fewer pronouns? I'm not sure what your various "its" are referring to.

[Abuzorg]

To be honest, I always tought the answer was pretty clear. The psyker entry in the rulebook never talks about using the same power twice, it only says that you cannot fire 2 psychic shooting attack. They way I see it, confusion only arose because of Ahriman's Black Staff special rule, in wich GW saw an opportunity to bring an extra clarification on psychic power use in general (judging by the FAQ's broad answer).

GOC spam list would be much less fun if each aspiring sorcerer could only do it once a turn. :D

[Caldera02]

Good discussion so far. Sorry for being snippy earlier but I abhor the, "well it doesn't say you can" in the book argument as I feel that is a lame argument. We can call up probably a million things not listed in the book that we do in the game.

And as the above poster pointed out, this is exactly one of the reasons I believe it works the way I've stated thus far. Why would they point out you cannot use two psychic attacks in the same turn, why not just go ahead and say you cannot use any spell twice. The FAQ also confirms my reasoning when stating that Gift and warptime and be used multiple times.

The Aspiring Sorceror often gets overlooked in this regard I think due to most of the time being kited out with a shooting attack instead of warptime perhaps. I've used both shooting attacks and warptime and have found warptime to be tremondously better, but that is a different discussion.

[Culven]

Sorry for being snippy earlier but I abhor the, "well it doesn't say you can" in the book argument as I feel that is a lame argument.
Appology accepted. As for the "it doesn't say you can" bit, that is an inherent criteria for any game, including 40K. Game rules list what is permitted within the context of the game. If there isn't a rule permitting something, then it is not permitted in the game. This is also why we refer to the 40K rules as a "permissive ruleset". The rules give permission to perform actions, and only provides restrictions when permitted rules interact in a way that is undesirable.

We can call up probably a million things not listed in the book that we do in the game.
True, but the majority of those are going to be house rules (sometimes unspoken house rules) which are included to facilitate playing the game. I cannot think of anything that I do, which is directly related to gameplay, that is not included in the rules or is a house rule to make the rules work.

Why would they point out you cannot use two psychic attacks in the same turn, why not just go ahead and say you cannot use any spell twice.
The rule isn't prohibiting using two psychic attacks, it prevents using two psychic shooting attacks, which corresponds to the limitation placed on shooting any ranged weapons. Even a restriction preventing using any spell twice wouldn't restrict shooting since it is possible to have a Sorcer with Mark of Tzeentch and two shooting powers (Bolt of Change, Doombolt, and Wind of Chaos). By permitting the use of two powers a turn and restricting it to no more than one shooting power a turn, the Sorcerer could use one of the shooting powers and any other non-shooting power.

The FAQ also confirms my reasoning when stating that Gift and warptime and be used multiple times.
I still think that the FAQ is an error since there is nothing in the rulebook or codex to support the idea that the model could use any power more than once. Perhaps it is based upon a different interpretation of what is meant by "use two powers". For myself, it allows a player to choose two powers which the model has and use each one in a single turn. As another poster mentioned, there seems to be another interpretation in which some see it as the Psyker has two "use a power" coupons. They then redeem each coupon to use one of the model's powers. I think this is where the discrepancy lies. So, depending upon which camp one is in, lets call them the "Choose Two" and the "Two Coupon" camps ;), the interpretation as to what is permitted changes.

[Nabterayl]

I think it's a question of different interpretations of "cannot use the same power twice in a turn." I think that's the operative clause (from page 50) for the "choose two" camp. Taken by itself, that clause clearly contradicts the FAQ. I think the FAQ writer decided that, because the clause appears in the context of psychic shooting attacks, what the rulebook meant to say was "cannot use the same psychic shooting attack twice in a turn."

This brings us back to the old "are we allowed to infer words based on location" argument, which I'm sure many of us remember from the epic Foehammer debate, and the old "are FAQs errata by virtue of GW publishing them" argument, which I'm sure many of us remember from BuFFo's thread. I propose that the farthest we can get in answering this question is to pose the following two questions:
Do you (as a player/group) believe that GW-published FAQs have the status of errata? If yes, you should conclude that you can use any non-psychic shooting attack multiple times per turn, but any given psychic shooting attack only once per turn. If no, you should ask yourself:
Do you (as a player/group) believe that words can be read into a rule based on that rule's location? If yes, you should conclude that you can use any non-psychic shooting attack multiple times per turn, but any given psychic shooting attack only once per turn. If no, you should conclude that no psychic power can be used multiple times per turn.
Do folks agree that pretty much sums up the decision tree?

[karandras]

this simple thread sure has led off in an unexpected direction... are you all saying that Ahirman can cast Gift of Chaos three times per turn!?!?! That seems pretty overpowered!!! That could potentially cripple any toughness 3 army and create a potential tide of chaos spawn at the same time!!! Talk about a force multiplier!!!

[Nabterayl]

Well, the FAQ is saying that Ahriman can cast Gift of Chaos three times per turn. As for whether or not that means Ahriman can cast Gift of Chaos three times per turn, refer to my previous post (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=38832&postcount=32) :p