Forgeworld rules and tournament legality

[Popsical]

So on whingeseer a thread has run on this subject due to a rumour from faeit 212.
Apparently the next IA book will no longer state that you must ask permission to use your expensive resin crack.
Will this mean a wider acceptance of fw at tournies?
Did anyone mention this at ToS?
Do you care? If so why or why not?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

So on whingeseer a threadIt's funny, I see people whine in both BoLS and Warseer, but at least posters on Warseer don't whine as much about other forums as happens on BoLS. "Whingeseer" and "whineseer" are dull and add nothing to the discussion; I'd highly recommend not using them.

Back on topic, I feel like the diehard anti-FW folks will continue to say that FW isn't GW, and isn't legal until GW itself makes an announcement about it. I don't agree with that argument, but it's how I usually see it presented.

[interrogator_chaplain]

My question is, if Forgeworld goes legal, does that infact make 30k compatible with 40k?

Because I just got some Cataphractii Terminators...

[Mr Mystery]

Ultimately? DFKDFC.

It's down to the individual Tournament organiser. I believe they publish their rules packs in advance.

If they say no, it's a no. It's their Tournament after all.

[Popsical]

Some very interesting points raised by ADB on faeit's blog, where he states categorically that GW have repeatedly stated FW is now legal and that the nay sayers arguements about FW not being GW are totally inaccurate.
Would be interesting to hear the ToS rules on FW entry for the next round.

[silashand]

It's down to the individual Tournament organiser. I believe they publish their rules packs in advance.

If they say no, it's a no. It's their Tournament after all.

This. I don't see it being any other way. The only thing the change in the FW books will do is make them "legal" for friendly play so you won't have to ask permission to use them unless it's an event and the organizer says no.

Cheers, Gary

[DarkLink]

Right, if anyone tells you that forgeworld is not official, then according to GW, you can officially call them stupid.

[phoenix01]

It must be a day ending in Y because it's time for another "are Forgeworld rules allowed in GW games?" thread.

[Popsical]

Did anyone who went to or is going to ToS hear any new info on this developement?
Im personally convinced FW is busted and OP.
My seige vanguard are zero for four in the wins department.
Im such a bad player that ive finished 8th 4th and 2nd in tournies in the last few years with non FW inclusive armies.
My best mate finished 2nd to last in his last tournie with a pure FW ork list from kastorel novum.
Oh and his non FW armies have beaten my vanguard twice one being a massacre.
Yep FW is way too over powered.

[theresponsibleone]

I really don't care. Which books to use are up to tournament organisers.

Is it 'official'?

Yes. It's from Games Workshop.

Is it up to you as a player or a tournament organiser to decide for whatever reason they choose which rules to include and which not?

Yes.

"Official" is just code for seeking validation and being 'right'. It's a load of nonsense. People can like them or not, and in the games they are organising, whether in their garage, local game store or massive international tournament, can make their own decisions about what to include and not, like reasonable adults.

[SaveModifier]

Forge World units are in the game, they have rules, you can use them, if an individual tournament organiser or opponent wishes for them not to be used, thats their call, you then have to decide if you;d want to play those games.

[oni]

Official... Not official... It makes no difference.

Until the FW products can readily be purchased side by side with the rest of GW's products everywhere it will never truly gain unconditional acceptance.

[DarkLink]

There are plenty of regular 40k units that can't commonly be found anywhere but online, or don't even have models.

[Popsical]

Exactly darklink. Every reason against is applicable to codexs which are used by everyone.
There simply isnt a reason not to allow fw anymore.

[daboarder]

There are plenty of regular 40k units that can't commonly be found anywhere but online, or don't even have models.

shhh your poking holes in unreasonable bias again

[DarkLink]

And those handful of arguably broken forgeworld units?
Riptides.
Heldrakes.
Mind shackle scarabs.
Rad and psykotroke grenades.
Night scythes.
Vendettas.
The Grimnoire.
Fateweaver.
Broadsides.
Markerlights.
Wave Serpents.
Wraithknights.
Warp Spiders.
War Walkers.
Daemons of Tzeentch.
Flesh Hounds.
Grav Gun Bikers.

Shall I continue?

[daboarder]

I do pay the broken argument for atleast one FW unit, that insane riptide kit is just nuts.

[Morgrim]

Well, if someone tries putting a super heavy in a standard game I believe everyone is still allowed to tell them to get lost. For everything else, bring the rules. If you can't pass your opponent a hard copy of the rules you can't use the unit. If it doesn't have rules/still has experimental rules then it is still being beta tested and the opponent is allowed to veto it. (If it is a digital only codex you'll have to pass them a device with the codex on it, but that definitely applies to the GW digital releases too.)

[DarkLink]

That's because unlike Forgeworld, superheavies are specifically supposed to be apocalypse only. Using them in regular 40k is pure houserules.

[Learn2Eel]

I haven't even bothered with the rest of the thread, I just came in to say;
I agree with DarkLink 100%.

[Maelstorm]

I haven't even bothered with the rest of the thread, I just came in to say;
I agree with DarkLink 100%.

Yeah, what he said!

[AnEnemy]

War Walkers and Warp Spiders are broken? Really? Huh...if you say so.

People regularly refuse to play my 30k Space Wolves. I expect it'll always be that way. Whether it's right or not...people without Forgeworld will often times refuse to play against Forgeworld. There's still a pay to win stigma out there despite the fact that the entire game is pay to win.

It makes no sense when you look at my list and see that it's predominately Tactical marines and Devastators...nothing new or complex about that...but that just doesn't matter. Their eyes immediately go for the more outlandish stuff like my the jetbike command squad.

Fear of the unknown.

[DarkLink]

What's broken and what's really good is a very arbitrary distinction. Most of the forgeworld units that are lauded as broken are really just good, not game breaking.

[rxcky]

It always makes me smile when this topic comes up, GW must be the only company in the world who make a big deal about one of their ranges of products, and then deny the players their use in tournaments. "Come here good people and buy these amazing, shiney new models that Forge World have produced, they are some of the most fantastic miniatures that you can get anywhere in the world!!, what's that? you want to use them in an official Games Workshop Tournament? Oh no no, you can't do that!" It truley boggles the mind!!

Where I come from we all use FW in some shape or form in most games, why? because the models are cool and we like them. Yes there are some things that they do that on paper appear to be overpowered, the R'Varna being one of them, but there are plenty of GW codex related models and units that have already been mentioned that can also be argued to be overpowered. Bottom line to argue that you can't use it, especially after the premium you pay to buy them is ludicrous! They are a product produced by an arm of the same company, they are from the same game system, they have rules within said game system, they are not for want of a better word un-killable. For many I have to agree it seems to be a fear of the unknown, people don't know what it does or how it works and are not expecting or prepared to fight it, that being said there is no reason why you should not be allowed to use it if A) it has the 40K stamp of approval, and B) you have the relevant Imperial Armour or Updated Download from the FW site so your opponent can see what he's up against.

You don't see FW in stores because it costs a lot more to produce and keep stock of resin models than it does Plastic, hence why very little finecast is actually kept in store any more. All GW stores carry the core plastic kits and models and a select few of the better selling Finecast bits, the rest you are encouraged by your local store munchkin to order from their computer and have delivered to the store. This is not a problem as it can usually get there pretty quickly. Putting FW in stores is not likely to happen, it's just too expensive, FW is a much smaller group of guys than you would think and because of this it makes this part of GW very profitable, if they were to ramp up production to fill stores it would mean a huge expenditure of cash to make sure they had enough for retail, which in turn would mean they would need to see a big increase in sales, which then takes away from the bread and butter that is 40K and Fantasy.

End of the day they do the other stuff that GW doesn't have time to or they make things like the super heavies or bigger kits that just aren't worth producing in Plastic (yet). No one can deny the quality that comes out of FW, their percentage of amazing to below average miniatures, in my opinion, is far higher towards the kick *** end of the scale and I will continue to buy them and play with them regardless of what happens. Would I like GW to come out and say "Yes you can use FW in tournaments" Of course I would, but I can't ever see it happening, I love GW models and will always buy them but things like this just make no sense to me and why folks just can't all get along about this simply irks me.

[Popsical]

Hear, hear! Well said that man.

[Clockwork]

Official... Not official... It makes no difference.

Until the FW products can readily be purchased side by side with the rest of GW's products everywhere it will never truly gain unconditional acceptance.

You can do that at Warhammer World. And with so much direct only anymore (Wave Serpent, Sisters, ect), is it really that hard to consider ordering FW online anymore?

[oni]

You can do that at Warhammer World. And with so much direct only anymore (Wave Serpent, Sisters, ect), is it really that hard to consider ordering FW online anymore?

My post is quite vague I admit. It's not necessarily an issue of accessibility. It's more so a community adopted disapprobation; discrimination so to speak, due to, in my opinion, the simple fact that the Forge World products are not for purchase on the same store shelf next to the core game products or even on the same website. This simple matter creates a subconscious idea that because they do not share the same retail or online space that they are somehow not meant to be treated as or accepted as equals to one another. Think about this for a moment and how it relates to say... Car brands and dealerships. How many dealerships do you see selling Toyota's alongside Lexus? - It's the same company, but two very different brands and kept separate from one another as to maintain the image of Lexus being the more prestigious brand.

What needs to happen on a more fundamental level is what the name "Forge World" means and how it's represented. Currently its not uniformly seen as just a brand name sold under the umbrella of a larger company. Right now Forge World is generally viewed as a separate. It produces models separately from GW and sells its models separately from GW. This degree of separation drives a proverbial 'wedge' between the the two reinforcing the idea that they are somehow meant to be separate and unequal.

So back to my original post - Change the sales dynamic to change the perception of separation and ultimately the perception of the buyers / community.

[Morgrim]

And with so much direct only anymore (Wave Serpent, Sisters, ect), is it really that hard to consider ordering FW online anymore?
If you're not living in the UK, definitely. Even the 'direct order only' GW stuff can be ordered and paid for in the local GW store and they will ship it to the store for you for free. Sure, it's not on the shelves, but it still feels like part of the range. Whereas if you want Forgeworld stuff you have to pay a full 15% shipping and wait at least month for it to arrive and possibly spend even more time running around chasing customs. It doesn't feel like the same company, it feels like a different company that just has permission to play in the same universe, which probably contributes to people saying it isn't 'official'.

[steelmage99]

Some very interesting points raised by ADB on faeit's blog, where he states categorically that GW have repeatedly stated FW is now legal and that the nay sayers arguements about FW not being GW are totally inaccurate.


Thats nice.

The obvious question would be; "Where have GW repeatedly stated that?"

And I have to ask; why should I care at all what a BL writer has to say about the relationship between Imperial Armour and Warhammer 40K?

[steelmage99]

Right, if anyone tells you that forgeworld is not official, then according to GW, you can officially call them stupid.

According to GW where? Can you provide a quote or a link?

[DarkLink]

Google is your friend. It's not exactly hard to find. And it's not just Black Library authors, there are quotes from the likes of Jervis Johnson from more than a decade ago staying the Forgeworld is official. Though your tone implies that you're not going to believe anyone who says Forgeworld is official, short of maybe GW's CEO himself.

[steelmage99]

Google is your friend. It's not exactly hard to find. And it's not just Black Library authors, there are quotes from the likes of Jervis Johnson from more than a decade ago staying the Forgeworld is official. Though your tone implies that you're not going to believe anyone who says Forgeworld is official, short of maybe GW's CEO himself.

So you cannot provide a quote or link?

[DarkLink]

Sigh... http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/11/08/guest-editorial-by-william-shaw-is-forge-world-official/

I literally just typed in 'phil kelly forgeworld' and got a bunch of relevant results.

[Popsical]

No darklink it cannot be true! The sky must fall the day FW is really really legit shirley?
I mean people well placed in GW society may have said FW is legit, but is it...

really?...

your sure?...



really?

[steelmage99]

Sigh... http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/11/08/guest-editorial-by-william-shaw-is-forge-world-official/

I literally just typed in 'phil kelly forgeworld' and got a bunch of relevant results.

That's your "smoking gun"? :rolleyes:

[DarkLink]

When one random GW employee explicitly states that GW considers Forgeworld official, I'll buy it. When Jervis Johnson, one of the head honchos of 40k itself, says it, then I won't buy whatever bull**** someone tries to bury that with.

But, like I said, your tone reveals your attitude. If Tom Kirby himself sat down with you, I bet you still would cling to your preconcieved notions. You can't use ratiobality to convince an irrational person of anything.

[Cadian122]

If you're not living in the UK, definitely. Even the 'direct order only' GW stuff can be ordered and paid for in the local GW store and they will ship it to the store for you for free. Sure, it's not on the shelves, but it still feels like part of the range. Whereas if you want Forgeworld stuff you have to pay a full 15% shipping and wait at least month for it to arrive and possibly spend even more time running around chasing customs. It doesn't feel like the same company, it feels like a different company that just has permission to play in the same universe, which probably contributes to people saying it isn't 'official'.

I'm just going to say that it's really easy to circumvent the 15% shipping - have an order equal £250. I find that it can be quite easy to make the £250, just ask your gaming buddies if they want to get anything. My experience is that it can be quite easy to get to the £250 mark then, and you're waiting a week-10 days max, which is no longer than ordering something in-store at GW.

I bought the £350 Zone Mortalis 4'x4' board to get shipped to Australia, I ordered it on a Friday, it was shipped the following Tuesday (Bank Holiday Monday in the UK), and it arrived exactly a week later to my doorstep. I've had GW in-store orders take longer.

I've also had no issue with Customs, with the exception of my Reaver Titan, which cost over AUD$1000 at the time, and if the order is under the AUD$1000 mark then there will be no issue with customs.

It's also 12% shipping for someone in the UK, and if you don't live in Nottingham, it is cheaper to order it from the website.

[Popsical]

That's your "smoking gun"? :rolleyes:

So, pro FW thinkers can prove in writing from well placed GW employees that FW is legit, and even the latest FW rules have dropped the "ask permission" garbage. You an anti FW thinker can prove FW is not legit because?

[Demonus]

I dont mind forge world stuff, but reserve the right to veto any "experimental rules" bs. F you FW Riptides.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

just got in my catapracts this weekend missed the free shipping by a few days though.... evil evil people but very very pleased with the new minis they will be the base for a terminator command squad i just need to find proper bases for them and then i should be able to have a go at them when all is said and done the unit itself will cost me over 150$ 100 for the models and 50 for painting and bases i'm gong to have a buddy paint them up to a higher standard them i can stupid lack of skills lol

[Mr Mystery]

5703

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

lol thanks mystery i just think practicing technique is better on something thats cheaper lol maybe tactical squads lol not my uber expensive terminator squad lol. i can paint to table top if not a bit higher but lack the finess needed to really give the cats their justice. i mean if you look at the mini's themselves they are incredibly detailed and look imposing.

[dawnofthedead]

Just to let you know, GW seems to not want forge world in there tournaments. Here is a link for something they call the warrior code. I find it interesting that they list every book you can use to make an army and there are no forge world books. You might think this is crap but it seems this is what GW wants. You decide. Here is the link: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... e_V1.2.pdf

[DarkLink]

GW does a lot of weird things with their tournament.

[Mr Mystery]

No, that is what Warhammer World want.

As with absolutely anything in your list, is down to the organiser whether they want to tinker around or not.

[RGilbert26]

As above, that's Warhammer World, not GW.

They have said before why they don't accept FW units/army lists.

[dawnofthedead]

Isn't warhammer world owned by GW? Just like forge world and black library? I just assumed they all were owned by the same company and would follow the guide lines of what gw wants.

[RGilbert26]

I'll rephrase, Warhammer World Tournaments forbid FW units/Armylists. Better?

[DarkLink]

I don't really see the difference from when a gw store anywhere else runs a tournament, it's still up to the TO to determine whatever rules he wants to follow. Didn't they used to do comp and stuff, too? Or, say, the weird Ard Boyz missions? That's certainly not part of the official rules. Not that anyone out here cares, GW never runs tournaments out here anyways. I always forget that GW used to run actual events.

[RGilbert26]

*facepalm*

The difference is that Official GW Tournaments which are held solely at Warhammer World forbid FW units/armylists from being used because of the reasons they themselves have given. Other 'Tournaments' held at GW Stores are bound by rules setup by their respective Managers and are not bound by the rules at Wathammer World.

Was that explanation easier to understand?

[DarkLink]

Oh, I understood the point you were trying to make. My question is, how is the manager of warhammer world's tournaments different from the manager of other GW stores. Or, to put it more bluntly, wtf is warhammer world? I know it's a gw store, but if it's anything special you would do well to remember that not all of us live in Nottingham.

Also, being rude doesn't really help your point. Especially when it sounds to me like you are contradicting yourself. You imply above that warhammer world is independent from gw as far as tournaments are concerned, but then you say warhammer world is gw and their word is law or something. And considering that most people in other countries probably don't even know what warhammer world is, and that at least out here gw doesn't do any tournaments anymore, you might want to lay out your argument a little more thoroughly.

[dawnofthedead]

I was kinda confused also. I live in the USA and have never been out of the country.

[RGilbert26]

Warhammer World is at GW HQ and it is where they hold their only official tournaments, it also has its own Hobby Centre where you can buy GW and FW products (only store that does this, currently) and has Bugman's Bar where you can buy breakfast, lunch and dinner. Plus Bugman's only merchandise.

The only difference between Warhammer World and normal GW stores is that all other 'tournaments' held at the other GW stores are not 'official' ones. Only tournaments at WHW (such as Throne of Skulls, Battle Brothers etc) are official and so the new Warrior's Code is enforced as well as the ban on FW units/armylists. Hence my point about it being up to each individual store manager whether or not FW is allowed outside of WHW.

Sorry for seeming rude, if I had noticed your location I would have made it sounded less rudeish :P

[DarkLink]

No worries. It seems a bit to me like how GW handles FAQs. They just tend to throw stuff out, and half the time it doesn't make much sense or isn't particularly relevant. I wonder how close the WHW TOs are with the actual design staff. I know some gw stores don't allow Forgeworld mainly because they can't stock it in-store, that might be a factor.

[RGilbert26]

Not sure about other stores but my local allows FW, just doesn't allow you to play 30k or show off your stuff in the cabinet as you can't buy in store.

[Chemiker]

This bothers me because all these armies are getting supplements and the only one necrons have is the forgeworld one.
People say they're OP, but the stuff in the book are balanced in points and weaknesses. People complain about Kutlakh but a normal overlord can have same saves, better weapons, MS scarabs, and orb for less points.
And the scarabs are easy to deal with and cost 5 points extra for each base.
People complain cause FW stuff have rules that aren't in normal codex, so that makes them OP?? Hardly.
And most people that complain go and run stuff like a bunch of broadsides or wave serpents, which aren't as bad as people act.
I don't mind losing, I use units I like, not ones that'll make me win.
Wish the 40k scene wasn't full of people who think everything that's not used by them, is OP or broken.

[RGilbert26]

Necron FW book is not a supplement, it is it's own seperate army.

[Lord-Boofhead]

This bothers me because all these armies are getting supplements and the only one necrons have is the forgeworld one.

Settle Petal, you get your supplement(s) when you get a hard cover 6th ed codex..