News from Warhammer World - Tournament feedback and mini-rumours...

[Denzark]

Hello chaps

Just back from my latest foray into the GW tournament, Throne of Skulls. I thought you might like some information on the meta there, things I saw over the weekend, and a few rumours etc. Here goes...

Meta

Going into the tourney there was a lot of talk about spammed Grav-gun SM bikers. Actually, I didn't see any of this at all although SM bikers were certainly there. As suspected, Tau/Eldar MC were prevalent. There were a couple of nasty daemon lists relying on tzeentchian 4++/re-roll 1's shenanigans - with a spamshield landing pad thrown in. 'Obvious' ally choices like Nob bikers had paired down a bit and also there was a lot less Necrons. I did see a couple of new SM anti air tanks, and a couple of centurions. Only 1 3x Heldrake list I spotted. Only 1 Space Wolf player. Are they the new sisters/BT? A couple of sisters. Overall winner was a nids player who went 5-0-0. Remember GW base results of a margin of victory, including favourite game votes. Also, I understand table allocation to be totally random althroughout so he could have seal-clubbed his way to the top - although he got 3 favourite game votes so was probably a top guy, I doubt this was how he did it.

Rules

GW yellow staff were being quite tight in areas. There is a new 'Warrior's Code' coming in for 2014, but they seem to apply them from this weekend. This included:

All painted Armies. Now, GW state they will not apply a '3 colour standard' because this is open to abuse. They picked up on someone with a very basic paint scheme that was supposed to be white scar bikers that seemed to be a white primer, a wash and some boltgun metal on the bike engines.

No proxies. This is subject to interpretation, but they seem to enforce it based on 'if it has a model is must be used' and conversions must be pre-approved if heavy and not blatantly obvious what the mini is. One fellow who fell foul had an immaculately painted army with Dark angel minis, but painted as White Scars. Even though it had conversions like landspeeders with twin lascannons for preds, he was made to re-write the list as a White Scars list. So the big ugly speeder was a LR etc. I thought this was quite harsh.

Others included me being asked why my drop pod doors were glued shut - ummm because I don't like them flapping around, I can't be arsed to paint the insides and also because i was not aware the rules said a vehicle's doors must be modelled to open?

Rumours

These were picked up from attendees not any GW staff. I cannot comment on the provenance. But, 2 main ones. Firstly, plastic T-Hawk is designed. However it currently takes 7 sprues. Apparently the problem is that the big boy kit machine can only do 6 at a time. So the sprues need rehashing to try and cram it all in to make it economical. (I know, I know...) The other is that plastic Sisters are done. The timing of the new codex is an attempt to whittle down some apparently high stocks of current metal.


So I hope this was of interest.

[Deadlift]

Thanks for the info Den.
The rumours both sound interesting, I just wonder how much longer we will have to wait for plastic sisters. Am I right in thinking the codex release was digital only ? If so maybe the plastics will accompany a hardback release later on. Plastic thunder hawk, yep we have all been dribbling over this for years. I'm sure GW want to do it and if what you heard is true it could be one step closer to a reality. Brilliant.

[Wolfshade]

That's what I am thinking as well. New plastics with new book. This digital release was a bump to lower stock, while a little cynical, I can understand why they did it. After all no one would buy metal if they could have multi-part plastic kits.

Plastic - T Hawk the stuff of dreams

[Denzark]

I can see the thinking behind lowering stock - but if the e-version to hard copy version is standard (were Farside and Black Legion not about 3 months apart from their e-versions?) then that is not much time to lower stocks of metal - unless the e-codex levelled up the power to attract significant amounts of bandwaggoners, rather than just service the SoB fanboys.

All I know is that St Getty-upagain doesn't do that as much as she used to.

[eldargal]

There is no way the current SoB codex, as good as it is with it's updates and whatnot is going to be the entirety of the hardcover simply because it is almost inconceivable that GW don't include at least one new vehicle variant. The Exorcist will almost certainly be converted to plastic and it will almost certainly be a dual kit which will necessitate at least one new entry and given the lack of units in the SoB book overall I can't see them not adding more. Dark Elves provide a recent precedent for a two month release as well. Hopefully if they release a new 6th edition book for them with new units people who paid for the digital version will be able to download the new version for free. Paying for two sixth edition rule books for the same army would be unprecedented and really, really low.

[Wolfshade]

/TL:DR
But yes I agree, similiarly with the Codex BA.
There needs to be new units in a new release because I must have all the new models zomg1``¬¬

[Denzark]

There is no way the current SoB codex, as good as it is with it's updates and whatnot is going to be the entirety of the hardcover simply because it is almost inconceivable that GW don't include at least one new vehicle variant. The Exorcist will almost certainly be converted to plastic and it will almost certainly be a dual kit which will necessitate at least one new entry and given the lack of units in the SoB book overall I can't see them not adding more. Dark Elves provide a recent precedent for a two month release as well. Hopefully if they release a new 6th edition book for them with new units people who paid for the digital version will be able to download the new version for free. Paying for two sixth edition rule books for the same army would be unprecedented and really, really low.

I can't see the logic in a lot of what they do, especially separating hardcopy and e-version releases. So on that basis I can't see a second codex. The fact a supplement came out at all shows they will support the army with plastics. Maybe SoB and GK will be seen by the end of 6th, as niche and/or supplement codexes to support the Inquisitors in the new one imminently arriving?

[Herzlos]

The other is that plastic Sisters are done. The timing of the new codex is an attempt to whittle down some apparently high stocks of current metal.

And to think in the past they used to use sales, or just melt them down and re-cast as something else.

[Hexx2019]

I think T Hawk plastics is that 40k version of the american dream.. we're chasing it but we're never going to really get it. Plastic sisters on the other hand I believe could be a thing.

[silashand]

No proxies. This is subject to interpretation, but they seem to enforce it based on 'if it has a model is must be used' and conversions must be pre-approved if heavy and not blatantly obvious what the mini is. One fellow who fell foul had an immaculately painted army with Dark angel minis, but painted as White Scars. Even though it had conversions like landspeeders with twin lascannons for preds, he was made to re-write the list as a White Scars list. So the big ugly speeder was a LR etc. I thought this was quite harsh.

I am on the fence here. On one hand I hate when people use models painted as one army as proxies for another (just my opinion as I think it looks dumb and violates the fluff too much for my tastes). However, with the conversions you say the guy had it seems clear it was meant to be a DA list and anyone looking at it would likely know what everything was as soon as he said something. Personally I would probably have told the judge to piss off and left. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

[ONIAgent150]

That's a real bummer that Warhammer World staff were being so tight with that modelling and painting stuff. I paint my stuff up to a nice standard, but not everyone has the time or patience for that aspect of the hobby.

On the subject of a plastic Thunderhawk, holy Terra. That's some a guaranteed purchase from me once they roll it out (eventually). Glad to hear Sisters are on their way, as I would love to have a force of them for allies.

[The Dave]

it seems clear it was meant to be a DA list and anyone looking at it would likely know what everything was as soon as he said something. Personally I would probably have told the judge to piss off and left. JMO though...
I share this opinion; I cannot believe that this truly happened. I don't know if I would do anything different than what you suggested.

[George Timson]

I am on the fence here. On one hand I hate when people use models painted as one army as proxies for another (just my opinion as I think it looks dumb and violates the fluff too much for my tastes). However, with the conversions you say the guy had it seems clear it was meant to be a DA list and anyone looking at it would likely know what everything was as soon as he said something. Personally I would probably have told the judge to piss off and left. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

Personally, I'd have just lied and said they were a successor chapter to the Dark Angels and picked out some random name to justify their insignia and colours. Calling them the White Angel Lightnings or something...

[Christopher Szynkowski]

Out of curiosity, did Throne of Skulls allow Forgeworld units?

[Denzark]

However, with the conversions you say the guy had it seems clear it was meant to be a DA list and anyone looking at it would likely know what everything was as soon as he said something. Personally I would probably have told the judge to piss off and left. JMO though...

Hard call when you have paid some £60 up front for a ticket!


Out of curiosity, did Throne of Skulls allow Forgeworld units?

Forgeworld miniatures were allowed. People did get away with Contemptors for Dreads which sort of puts the proxy thing back in it's box! However I suppose its a bigger target so not disadvantageous. However, forgeworld rules and army lists were not allowed.

[theresponsibleone]

No proxies. This is subject to interpretation, but they seem to enforce it based on 'if it has a model is must be used' and conversions must be pre-approved if heavy and not blatantly obvious what the mini is. One fellow who fell foul had an immaculately painted army with Dark angel minis, but painted as White Scars. Even though it had conversions like landspeeders with twin lascannons for preds, he was made to re-write the list as a White Scars list. So the big ugly speeder was a LR etc. I thought this was quite harsh.


Harsh or not, this has been in the event pack for a couple of years - and if you are doing anything like "painting your army as a different Chapter", you really, really should be mailing to check before you rock up with the wrong list. This wouldn't have been hard to check in advance, and the old event packs definitely warned you about proxies.

[theresponsibleone]

Rumours

These were picked up from attendees not any GW staff. I cannot comment on the provenance. But, 2 main ones. Firstly, plastic T-Hawk is designed. However it currently takes 7 sprues. Apparently the problem is that the big boy kit machine can only do 6 at a time. So the sprues need rehashing to try and cram it all in to make it economical. (I know, I know...) The other is that plastic Sisters are done. The timing of the new codex is an attempt to whittle down some apparently high stocks of current metal.


I have been to Warhammer World a few times, and there are always a couple of locals and a few guests who are happy to wax on about their latest theories about what is coming and what is ready. Their accuracy rate is no greater or worse than the guys at your local game shop - and remember Throne of Skulls is a gathering of players from all over the country. Without any provenance or sourcing, this is just the usual noise on the wind. It could be someone who saw a sprue, it could be someone repeating things they heard on the internet, or it could be someone with low self confidence trying to get some attention by appearing to be in the know. There is no way of telling.

[theresponsibleone]

Forgeworld miniatures were allowed. People did get away with Contemptors for Dreads which sort of puts the proxy thing back in it's box! However I suppose its a bigger target so not disadvantageous. However, forgeworld rules and army lists were not allowed.

With a side note to say that their Campaign Weekends and Legendary Battles usually allow some Forge World rules and lists, depending on the individual rules packs.

[SaveModifier]

If you're putting down Land Speeders and calling them Predators, I can see why you'll be asked to use them as Land Speeders. Thats common sense and its in the Tournament rules pack, everyone has to stick to it, so why should that be an exception?

As for the rumours, its just not happening, the Sisters codex, if it does get a hardback release, which as it was called a "Digital Exclusive" it might not, will be exactly as the digital version, they won't be getting any new models, if the digital sales had been good enough, perhaps.

[Denzark]

'Responsible' are you deliberately trying to sound snippy? I have responded to your points below.


Harsh or not, this has been in the event pack for a couple of years - and if you are doing anything like "painting your army as a different Chapter", you really, really should be mailing to check before you rock up with the wrong list. This wouldn't have been hard to check in advance, and the old event packs definitely warned you about proxies.

Old event packs did indeed cover proxies, the comment pertained purely to the fact that this is the first time in my experience that they have enforced it heavily.


I have been to Warhammer World a few times, and there are always a couple of locals and a few guests who are happy to wax on about their latest theories about what is coming and what is ready. Their accuracy rate is no greater or worse than the guys at your local game shop - and remember Throne of Skulls is a gathering of players from all over the country. Without any provenance or sourcing, this is just the usual noise on the wind. It could be someone who saw a sprue, it could be someone repeating things they heard on the internet, or it could be someone with low self confidence trying to get some attention by appearing to be in the know. There is no way of telling.

You are again correct. I mentioned provenance in my OP. This is what the intelligence world would refer to (Brit parlance) as single source uncorroborated. I did not say this was the Holy Grail and to bet your respective mortgages on it.


With a side note to say that their Campaign Weekends and Legendary Battles usually allow some Forge World rules and lists, depending on the individual rules packs.

Yes you are correct. But the individual asked about Throne of Skulls. Not generic GW tournies, not campaign weekends, not battle brothers, not Assault on Vidar's left nipple, the 1998 Blood Bowl tournament or anything else but Throne of Skulls. So that is what I answered.

[Denzark]

If you're putting down Land Speeders and calling them Predators, I can see why you'll be asked to use them as Land Speeders. Thats common sense and its in the Tournament rules pack, everyone has to stick to it, so why should that be an exception?

I don't think anybody should get an exception. In this case, said individual had to use one landspeeder variant as a Space Marine anti-air vehicle, another landspeeder variant as a stock landraider.

So whilst there should be no exceptions how much better is this scenario than allowing Dark Angels minatures that just happen to be painted white with red flashes?

[Wolfshade]

And to think in the past they used to use sales, or just melt them down and re-cast as something else.

I have never known a GW sale, when did they do this?

[Learn2Eel]

My local GW manager has lately come down hard on proxies and pretty much doesn't let anyone use them outside of a few games for the newbies while they get the basics and build their collection up. Of course though, if you convert up a model and it actually passes as a "conversion" and fits with the design/fluff/original model/etc then it is allowed. My converted Abaddon was made with Grey Knight bits over a Terminator Chaos Lord, and no one bats their eyes twice because it is well done. If someone just grabbed that same model, had the weapons but not the unique staff I added to it, the manager might not be as convinced.

I think it is fair enough, this approach. I remember hearing stories about a guy using a tissue box as a Land Raider one time in that store.....oh boy. I don't mind proxies myself but I can see why others have issues with it. As long as I know what is being proxied and I am told about it before the game starts I have zero issues with proxying. However, a lot of my friends have been burned by people not telling them what was what. I think I've posted about it before but a Grey Knight player having a game with one of my friends decided after the game started that a Dreadnought with the nemesis fist thing (that would instant kill my friends' Carnifex and thus affected his deployment) actually had two psybolt autocannons, and that his halberd-equipped Terminators actually all had daemon hammers. Stuff like that annoys me, but it is a communication issue more than anything else.

[RGilbert26]

Denzark, did you get to see the 'tru-scale' World Eaters?

The guy had a Land Raider made from a Baneblade and Land Raider.

[Denzark]

I saw the WE Land Raider/Baneblade - it was pretty cool. Didn't see any other of his WE and didn't realise they were 'tru-scale' but I saw it at the back end of Saturday when 3 games and many pints of Bugmans had taken their toll...

[dwez]

I have never known a GW sale, when did they do this?

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97Rk-BalgZbbVpTWjVMRlczQUk/edit?usp=sharing

I'd heard mention of this recently, I wonder how isotope99 will manage with his armies! Hopefully my old Carnifex/Tervigon conversion will still be valid alongside my Mycetic Spores and Bastion I'm not about to bin them off now that they're potentially going to bring out the models. They were made when there was no model and they've been accepting of them the last four times I've been anyway.

[RGilbert26]

Apart from his 1kSons where some units had bits from elsewhere, they love his conversion armies. Just look at his Ad Mech Necron army.

EDIT:

There were at least two CSM armies with three helldrakes, check the pics on Facebook.

[nurglez]

I was there as well, got very drunk saturday night and counted my first game as a draw instead of a win (I killed his warlord in a kill point game and only counted it as 1vp). I was joint third out of 11 chaos players (the second largest race outside of marines with 12 players), although had I counted the game as a win I would have been second :D

There were quite a few contemptors as GK psyrifle dreads, and even at least 1 decimator. I heard about the white scars as dark angels, while harsh I can understand it, kinda.

I've heard quite a bit about their new "warriors code", basically if you don't adhere to it you miss out on a certain amount of points, making you unable to win a best of race (unless you are the only one there ofc).

I do like Throne of Skulls, while costly, it is a joy to play at warhammer world. and if you get there early you can play on one of the many lovely tables they have (one with a crashed thunderhawk, quite a few have destroyed titans on them too).

And playing at GW HQ you know they are going to be strict on some things, I heard a scribor heavy marine army won something at one of the ToS earlier this year, maybe thats part of their crack down?

New event info for 2014, which covers the warriors code http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3510172a_WHW_Throne_of_skulls_Warhammer_40,000_Ev ent_Pack_2014_(wc12).pdf

[isotope99]

Oops, half of the examples of 'check with us first' in the new guidelines are mine. :o Though I did check the exodites in advance and they put my bloodthirster on the facebook page.

Examples of the kind of
Conversions we would want
to check:
• Converting Centurions into
Obliterators.
• Using a converted Khorne Lord of
Skulls as a Bloodthirster.
• Turning an Elf Dragon into an
Eldar Exodite tank.
• Using a Bad Moons
Rhino as a looted ork trukk.

However, I did get most of my armies signed off to be displayed in Warhammer World's miniatures hall so they can't be that bad. They're not really proxies in general because they are so heavily converted.

[nurglez]

exactly, if it fits the feel of 40k then it should be fine. Pony marines might be an issue, but I remember someone using werewolves as thunder wolves, and that feels ok to me. Also one of my favourite armies was a howling griffon's force, painted really well, using the space wolves codex, and had fantasy griffon type things as thunder wolves. I wonder if they would let that play now.

[RGilbert26]

A friend of mine is making an Ork army out of Orcs and Goblins :P

Should be interesting to see how it all goes, told him best thing to do is to have labels so people know what they are shooting at.

[Herzlos]

I have never known a GW sale, when did they do this?

They used to do it fairly often back in the long long ago. Store openings usually had spend $x and get y free deals, end of lines used to have clearance. I'm sure there was a pretty big sale when they went from lead to white metal as we went nuts with it at the time.

The prices on the scan go some way to giving the age away, £3.99 blister packs and Space Hulk in store.

[Wolfshade]

Actually, I do remember one, end of 2nd Ed, the box sets (box set + dm) were being sold for a pinch.

[Denzark]

Give them the'r due - I just took them up on their magic terrain deal - £70 worth for £50.

[RGilbert26]

The Christmas Bundles are always discounted, same with the new strikeforces.

[david5th]

Oops, half of the examples of 'check with us first' in the new guidelines are mine. :o



Me and my mate did notice this. :) Having seen and faced your amazing work i think you will be fine. :)

[Wolfshade]

Me and my mate did notice this. :) Having seen and faced your amazing work i think you will be fine. :)

Rule of cool prevails!

The system works.

[miteyheroes]

On sales, I remember buying 4 packs of GorkaMorka when it was being discontinued and sold for half price. Instant speed freaks army! That must have been at the start of 3rd ed?

[theresponsibleone]

'Responsible' are you deliberately trying to sound snippy? I have responded to your points below.

Sorry Denzark, not trying to come across as snippy at all - just firing off a few thoughts! I pretty much agree with your all your responses to me. If I came across as a bit negative in my earlier posts, sorry - the Internet is not a great medium for tone.

Thanks for posting and sharing stuff from the event. It is appreciated!

[Denzark]

No dramas bud I get the comment about tone. In another thread someone referred to everyone on the internet as 'autistic' and I thought that was quite perceptive (Not trying to be offensive to autistic people I presume the poster used the word as best descriptor.)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I am friends with a few of the Events Team at WHW, and I completely and totally agree with the proxy and painting rules. They are open to abuse and need to be tightened.
I pay £x to go to an event, with my carefully built and nicely painted army, I expect my opponents to have the same courtesy, otherwise it's just not fair.
We had one of the team down in Shrewsbury to visit us, and they were telling me about some absolutely piss-poor excuses for armies at WHW. It was actually this person that wrote the new rules. They basically said "if you need to question whether or not a model is fully painted, then it probably isn't"

[daboarder]

TDA if I rocked up with my chaos army to an event and got told that I couldn't use half of it due to it being nowhere near WYSIWYG, I'd be getting my money back minimum.

You've seen my stuff, a lot of these rules seem way to harsh to those of us that do things for the rule of cool.

[Clockwork]

TDA if I rocked up with my chaos army to an event and got told that I couldn't use half of it due to it being nowhere near WYSIWYG, I'd be getting my money back minimum.

You've seen my stuff, a lot of these rules seem way to harsh to those of us that do things for the rule of cool.

You mean the "harsh" rules that are to prevent people from modelling for advantage and approve conversions on a case by case basis, not ban them outright, as long as you get with them prior to the event (not the day of) to get approval which can keep you from wasting the money by talking to them about it early?

Yeah, real "harsh".

[daboarder]

And yet we already have an example from denzark about overbearing judges witb delusions of grandeur. ...

[Denzark]

I've got to say, I am a massive fan of the yellow shirts at WHW. I think maybe 'overbearing and delusions of grandeur' is a bit strong - they work bloody hard for the weekend. But I am not convinced it was better for me to make this White Scars/ Dark Angel player do a list that had a speeder as a landraider and a speeder as a Stalker - in order to CORRECT supposed proxying in the first place. Was also surpised at being questioned about drop pod doors - I genuinely thought some part of the BRB refers to the fact that vehicle turrets, doors and gun mounts don't have to be able to move. Clearly some of this game is simulation so as long as I don't try and claim DPs block LoS then I think its fine (incidently TLOS is actually quite hard through a DP with all the gubbins inside).

I guess I can sum up by stating it was 'surprising' just how stringent they are being given they have been reasonably flexible in the past - but it is their Tourney after all.

[daboarder]

and that would be my problem with it.

fair call on the overbearing so and so too.

[Mr Mystery]

To those who feel aggrieved....

Remember, it's your hobby, but go to WHW, and it's GW's house. Thus, there rules stand. If you don't like them, don't attend the event.

As for conversions and stuff? Looks like these rules are being adopted in the stores as well. All the more reason to set up or join an existing club.

[Blond Daemon]

Being at the latest ToS I thought they could have been a lot overbearing than they were, technically my army violated their new rules. Hatches on top of two tank turrets went missing (including my converted one with shotgun wielding veteran :( ) so I told them at registration and they were perfectly fine with it. Said they weren't planning on being that stringent. Though they have given themselves ability to if the want. Missed the white scars/dark angels army though. Sounds cool

[Clockwork]

As for conversions and stuff? Looks like these rules are being adopted in the stores as well. All the more reason to set up or join an existing club.

I doubt it. There is no sign of GW doing this, and these rules aren't really new, we're just seeing the most recent version of them (v1.2 means there was a 1.0 and that it was fairly close to this).

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

They haven't had the 3 colour rule for like 3 years?

[Clockwork]

They haven't had the 3 colour rule for like 3 years?
It only ever applied to GW run events like the stuff at Warhammer World since the tournaments started to pack up and they dropped that for a broader spectrum painting rule more recently because people where abuse the three color rule (I'm guessing priming black, slapping some bolt gun on the weapon and one other color somewhere else (shoulder pad trim most likely) to get it done fast and easy.

[Binary77]

I've got to say, I am a massive fan of the yellow shirts at WHW. I think maybe 'overbearing and delusions of grandeur' is a bit strong - they work bloody hard for the weekend. But I am not convinced it was better for me to make this White Scars/ Dark Angel player do a list that had a speeder as a landraider and a speeder as a Stalker - in order to CORRECT supposed proxying in the first place. Was also surpised at being questioned about drop pod doors - I genuinely thought some part of the BRB refers to the fact that vehicle turrets, doors and gun mounts don't have to be able to move. Clearly some of this game is simulation so as long as I don't try and claim DPs block LoS then I think its fine (incidently TLOS is actually quite hard through a DP with all the gubbins inside).

I guess I can sum up by stating it was 'surprising' just how stringent they are being given they have been reasonably flexible in the past - but it is their Tourney after all.

I feel I have to say something now, having been on the sharp receiving end of the warriors code at ToS this last weekend I can honestly say it could have been handled so much better. No warning, inconsistent rulings, it was a mess.
I'm the guy with the white scar counts-as dark angels list, and basically got told at 8.40 Saturday morning I could not use the list as it was proxying, and my opponents would think they were facing the SM codex not the DA one. Ok, so I had to re write the list in 20mins using a book I've never even read, and still had to proxy. Sammeal on sableclaw=LR. Librarian on bike=kor'sarro. LS Vengeance=Stalker. At least they let me use the predator as one (yes its an extended ladspeeder with sponsons and a turret, but its the same height and size as a predator)
Yes I had t questioned in first, but why allow some counts-as (forgeworld models can be used to represent units, previous best army winners, one of the other WS players modelling kor'sarro on a jet bike) and not others? And before anyone says anything my army was started in 2007 with the last DA codex, before SM allowed bike squads to be troops. And I've both seen and taken counts as armies to ToS before. Now? Exodite eldar which are being emailed before I buy a ticket, and an awareness that WHW seem to be stifling creativity while the rest of GW is trying to promote it.
Still it was a fun weekend, 3 lost, 1 draw and 1 win....and we won the pub quiz!
-Mark

[Popsical]

Hi mark. I was wondering if you could post your list and the model you used to represent each unit?
A picture of your army would be good if you can. Im curious as to the level the yellow shirts went to.
Cheers pops.

[Binary77]

Sure thing - pics will be up in a few days or you can look here
http://bobs40kblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/games-day-uk-part-2-armies-on-parade.html
It's the 7th one down

List I took was
Sammeal on sableclaw
Librarian on bike
Black knight command squad (3)
Ravenwing attack squad (6) with attack bike
Ravenwing attack squad (6)
Land speeder tornado
Tactical squad (5) in razorback
Predator annihilatior with HB sponsons
Land speeder vengeance
Nephilim

What I had to use was

Kor'sarro (Libby)
Command squad (5)
Bike squad(5) with attack bike
Bike squad(5)
Land raider (sammeal)
Predator annihilator with hb sponsons
Stalker (LS vengeance)
Tactical squad (5) with razorback
Storm talon (nephilim)

-mark

[Popsical]

Wow. I really cant see the problem with your army! I personally find the list they made you use with its proxies far more confusing.
Your army on display looks awesome by the way, and your conversions/proxies are superb, and far from confusing.
I wonder if someone had issues with you or felt threatened by your list and complained?
I honestly cant see the problem with what you took at all.
Harsh seems a mild term for the yellow shirts response.
Im very sad for you to have been singled out in such a way.
That would have completely wrecked my weekend, and i most definately would have demanded my money back on the spot.

[Wolfshade]

Had the razorback conversion not been so obviously a transport i might have seen the confusion, but I really don't see it. I love a nice bit of conversion and yes it might have taken a bit to get used to but the conversions are unique enough not to be an issue.

:/ Would like to see more of the army mind :)

[Mr Mystery]

See I disagree.

When I look at that army, I see White Scars, with speeders converted up to be tanks. And that's what I'd expect to be fighting.

Which is not to denigrate the skill and care you've poured into it.

However, given your list of conversions, it would be best run as White Scars overall.

[Popsical]

Ive always thought you could paint your army any colour you like?
So world eaters using the BA dex would be illegal too?

Also using that landspeeder as a landraider? Really? Thats less confusing? Rubbish.

[Wolfshade]

See I disagree.

When I look at that army, I see White Scars, with speeders converted up to be tanks. And that's what I'd expect to be fighting.

Which is not to denigrate the skill and care you've poured into it.

However, given your list of conversions, it would be best run as White Scars overall.


Ive always thought you could paint your army any colour you like?
So world eaters using the BA dex would be illegal too?

I see your point here, my first reaction is White Scars. An unpainted tactical squad could be from anywhere, if it spikey it points towards it actually being Chaos.

So unlike most (if not all) other forces the colour is very important. So Blue are Ultra Marines, Green are either Dark Angels or Sallies based on the type of green etc.

But likewise given that there are so many different foundings the chances are you'll end up with marines of all colours.

This:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/b/b0/Genesis_Chapter_Battle-Brother.jpg/200px-Genesis_Chapter_Battle-Brother.jpg
Is an Ultramarine sucessor, Genesis Chapter.

This:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/e/ea/Blood_Drinkers.jpg/200px-Blood_Drinkers.jpg
Is a Blood Angel sucessor, Blood Drinkers Chapter.

They look almost identical, but my first reaction of seeing Genesis is that it is BA decendant and not Ultramarine.

I think we have to accept that we will see Blue Salamanders, Red Ultramarines and what have you.

The colours can be deceptive and I don't think that that is a good enough reason to say it isn't a different marine dex, though to re-iterate I would say it looks like a white scars.

[RuneBrush]

Just chucking one thing in about drop pod doors, because of the 6th ed line of sight, annoyingly drop pods need to have doors opened when they're on the table - if they're closed they block LoS and the stormbolter/missile launcher cannot fire. It's actually a rules thing rather than a modelling thing and pretty much applies only to drop pods.

[RGilbert26]

Was the army painted in White Scars colour scheme, or were they just white?

[Wolfshade]

Was the army painted in White Scars colour scheme, or were they just white?

As white scars.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B6cLC1klK2c/UkhuIVlHViI/AAAAAAAAAYI/uZXpY_1ZUSY/s1600/IMG_0542.JPG

[Popsical]

Well put wolfie. When a punter pays 70 quid to play toy soldiers for a weekend the colour he paints them cannot be used to ruin his fun.
Im sorry but that is utterly awful customer service and deserves a refund. Flatly disgusted with the way that was handled. Things that promote a blatant advantage to the player should removed, not colours. So what happens if you play a colour blind player? Im sorry but its unfair i cant tell what chapter he is using as i have problems with blue and white next to each other?
So its easier to tell a landspeeder is a landraider than a white landspeeder is DA? Get bloody real GW thats pathetic.

Also good point on the pod issue RB, i'd claim they didnt block los at all if they were glued shut.

[RGilbert26]

It's a nicely painted army but I agree with WHW, you can't use it as a count-as DA army at an official tournament.

At first glance I would think "Ooh that's a nice White Scars army", opponent will inform me it's Dark Angels and then I'm sure at some point throughout the game I'll forget and assume it's Space Marines. Granted the staff could have been a bit better but still..

Popsical; White Scars for the last two codexes have been Space Marines, so you can't use their Chapter colours and symbols for a non-space marine army, you can for friendly games but not Tournaments.

Was it checked with WHW beforehand?

EDIT:

As an example they allow FW Contemptors to be Dreadnoughts because that's what they are, they just look different and bigger (plus you give your opponent a bigger target to shoot at). They allow Kor'sarro on a Jetbike because there is no model for him riding a bike.

Also, what do you mean by Exodite Eldar? Eldar armylist with models that look like Exodites?

Forcing a player to use another codex because his army looks like one from said codex is not stifling creativity.

[Popsical]

So what happens when you forget his landspeeder is a stalker or a landraider?
Its just as easily done by that rationale.
As a point of fact human paerception runs on shape recognition first, hence pilots and navy officers using silhouettes to identify enemies, not colours. (And yes i do know its also because they get silhouetted against the sky line and lose colour definition) However you know a fluffy bunny is harmless (unless in monty python) because it looks like a fluffy bunny, not because its white or brown. A tiger on the other hand is dangerous because it is a tiger, not because its white or orangybrown.
So your more likely to make the error of assuming a landspeeder is a landspeeder than you are which codex it comes from.
Poor guy couldnt win, and should have been given his money back.
Next time they need to state colour scheme will mean possible exclusion.

[RGilbert26]

Next time they need to state colour scheme will mean possible exclusion.

Rofl, no they don't.

[Denzark]

Just chucking one thing in about drop pod doors, because of the 6th ed line of sight, annoyingly drop pods need to have doors opened when they're on the table - if they're closed they block LoS and the stormbolter/missile launcher cannot fire. It's actually a rules thing rather than a modelling thing and pretty much applies only to drop pods.

No, I don't think so. Follow my logic here. BRB, vehicles, P71. 'line of sight is determined from the weapon's mounting and along its barrel'. So the weapon shoots where it points, right? Next: BRB, vehicles, P72. 'On some models it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case players should ASSUME that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings.' If the BRB give you grounds to make assumptions of TLOS impossible to achieve because of the physical status of the model, I don't think it unreasonable to apply this assumption to the TLOS of the DP weapons, do you?


*Edit to add - would you stop a IG player firing out of Chimeras if the back hatch was glued shut?


Also good point on the pod issue RB, i'd claim they didnt block los at all if they were glued shut.

In this instance I made sure all opponents were informed that they could trace LOS through the DPs but targets the other side would get a cover save. Which actually is more generous in some circumstances than being unable to trace a line through a dangling storm bolter and 10 marine-height harnesses.

[RuneBrush]

No, I don't think so. Follow my logic here. BRB, vehicles, P71. 'line of sight is determined from the weapon's mounting and along its barrel'. So the weapon shoots where it points, right? Next: BRB, vehicles, P72. 'On some models it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case players should ASSUME that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings.' If the BRB give you grounds to make assumptions of TLOS impossible to achieve because of the physical status of the model, I don't think it unreasonable to apply this assumption to the TLOS of the DP weapons, do you?


*Edit to add - would you stop a IG player firing out of Chimeras if the back hatch was glued shut?



In this instance I made sure all opponents were informed that they could trace LOS through the DPs but targets the other side would get a cover save. Which actually is more generous in some circumstances than being unable to trace a line through a dangling storm bolter and 10 marine-height harnesses.

You're completely correct when you're talking about shooting drop pod weapons or firing from a stationary tank (though I'd expect the guard to be disembarking ; )

However if you're trying to shoot at something and the drop pod is in the way, that's a different case entirely.

When a drop pod is placed on the board, you open up it's doors as best you can - it's not uncommon to only be able to open up three doors fully and the other two only partially. This means that marines can only exit from a few places and also creates blind points and similar where models can hide.

Not a problem with having a house rule saying it doesn't block LoS and gives a 4+ cover save, but for a tournament I do think it's right to go with the rule saying that they need to be not-glued. A tree and closed door can make the difference between having your squad obliterated on the first turn and only half of them spread like strawberry jam :D

Edit: I do agree that modelling and painting drop pods to have the doors open-able is a complete and utter mare!

[Denzark]

Runebrush there is no rule stating a model's doors must open to get out of it. If you put an opening door DP down and 2 doors were up against say - one of those annoying citadel plastic trees - and could open fully or at all, you could still disembark through that closed door and indeed through the tree assuming your difficult terrain test allowed it.

Nothing requires a tank turret to move, nor its tracks, nor its rear hatch to physically open to allow a disembark.

[Arkhan Land]

I gte that its easier for rules/tabletop/painting/etc, but cmon man!
drop pod doors down! This battle is being fought in the 41st century by warriors who actually need to get out of their transports not bunch of jerks in the 21st who just need to get out of the house!

[Denzark]

Um thanks for that. But my boltguns don't fire tiny bolt shells on a 28mm heroic scale. They don't make pew pew pew noises as they fire, and I feel no need to provide them. Likewise, the doors are a complete irrelevance.

I would just leave them off except that it would look sh*tter than with them up and glued on.

[DarkLink]

Plus, as an example, I bought all of my drop pods second hand. One of them came glued shut. If my opponent tried to give me crap about it, or even if a TO tried to do so, I would tell them to **** off. If they were reasonable, then all I'd have to do is swap out drop pods when it came time to determine LOS. But if they're going to try and rules lawyer me about it, I'm not goint to buy any of that crap.