HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Kickstarter

[Gotthammer]

Gamezone miniatures are doing an update to the much beloved classic!

Campaign site on the kickstarters (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2113976860/heroquest-25th-anniversary).

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/367/054/cf8453beb98e157a72d8d82d02c4ebd8_large.jpg?1385171 761

Official website (http://www.heroquestclassic.com/).

Company site (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/).

[eldargal]

Holy hell I was just thinking how brilliant a new Heroquest would be, nearly posted a topic on it.

[energongoodie]

I'm interested.

[Mr Mystery]

I may well just break my Kickstarter cherry for this one......

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Awesome. Always prefered HeroQuest and Space Crusade to Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk. Might go for htis one.

[Mr Mystery]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/215/726/halolz-dot-com-futurama-thelegendofzelda-shutupandtakemyrupees.jpg

Come on and launch already!

[energongoodie]

Awesome. Always prefered HeroQuest and Space Crusade to Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk. Might go for htis one.

Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk are two of my all time faves! :(

But if the minis are awesome, I'm gonna be all over this like white on rice!

[eldargal]

The Inevitable Eldargal Comment:

I just hope they include a decent mix of female heroes (and villains even). With clothes on.

[Fugu]

Oh man, I am SO looking forward to this. Massive fan.

Did they say anything about when the crowdfunding is going to start?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I want there to be men without clothes on.

[phoenix01]

I have a copy of the original, but it never came with instructions, so I've never played it. :(

[eldargal]

I want there to be men without clothes on.
I bet you do.:) The original had a barbarian that fulfilled the bill so it's a safe bet there will be a few half naked, well muscled men.

[Psychosplodge]

As long as everyone's scantily clad that's equality right? :D

[eldargal]

Well, no, not necessarily.:p But it's better than just the women being scantily clad.

[euansmith]

Why do forums have "like" buttons?

I want some strapping women in chain and plate; like the Sister's of Sigmar from Mordhiem.

[Nicodemus_]

I have a copy of the original, but it never came with instructions, so I've never played it. :(

Don't let the lack of instructions stop you phoenix01. Hasbro still hosts them.

Instructions
www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/HeroQuest.PDF

Quest Book
www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Hero_Quest_Quest_Book.PDF

~N

[Nicodemus_]

The latest news is that the main box set (presumably this will be the main contents without stretch goals added in, etc) will contain 8 Heroes, with male and female variants for the Barbarian/Dwarf/Elf/Wizard.

Here's what I know (be aware there may be some literal translation issues from Spanish to English):

---------------------------------
5670

5671

5672

5673

Box contents:

-1 BOARD – ALFA Model
Reversible, with two usable sides, Side A the Classic Dungeons. Side B Exterior Ruins and Places

- 1 MENTOR SCREEN
With Fundamental rules inside the hollows of the scenery, just as if they where reliefs in stone.

-8 DICE
Two movement dice and 6 combat dice (25th Model)

- RULES BOOKLET

- BOOK I of ADVENTURES

- ADVENTURER CARDS
Barbarian, Dwarf, Mage, female Wizard, Huntress, Elf, Dwarf, Female Dwarf, and Female Elf

-86 CARDS
10 Artifacts
30 Treasures
16 Equipment
6 Ignis Spells
6 Aqua Spells
6 Aer Spells
6 Terra Spells
6 Chaos Spells

-46 PLASTIC RESIN FIGURES
(8 HEROES)
1 Barbarian
1 Dwarf
1 Mage
1 Elf
1 Huntress
1 Female Dwarf
1 Wizard
1 Female Elf
(38 VILLANS)
2 Mummies
4 Zombies
4 Skeleton Warriors
6 Goblins
8 Orcs
4 Chaos Warriors
3 Drrakks
1 Petrified Gargoyle
1 Gargoyle
1 Chaos Witch
1 Wraith
1 Ogre
1 Black Orc
1 Viscosity of the Abyss

-48 Resin SCENE ELEMENTS
18 doors
4 Treasure chests
4 doors (Nicodemus' note: presumably these are 'closed' doors?)
1 Throne
3 wardrobes
1 Armory
1 torture Rack
1 chimney
1 sarcophagus
1 well
1 Pendulum of death
8 false treasures
1 dimensional portal

-35 resin MARKERS

------------------------------------------------

~N

[Gotthammer]

Oh hells yeah! :D

[eldargal]

... and female variants for the Barbarian/Dwarf/Elf/Wizard.
Sold!:p

[Nicodemus_]

Kickstarter campaign is live!


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2113976860/heroquest-25th-anniversary

[eldargal]

*flails excitedly*

They need to get pictures of the miniatures ASAP though

[Mr Mystery]

Agreed.

Though at $150 for top level pledge, I'm on this like a brainless teenager seeing a single footballer.

[Psychosplodge]

It's a stupid time of year to do.
two three months ago I'd have been in on this. Run up to xmas? not so much...

[energongoodie]

I thought I'd jump on this but I haven't.

Can you guys tell me why I should?

[Psychosplodge]

Because its a classic?

[energongoodie]

I think I need more than that. I shall wait to see what the stretch goals are.

[Psychosplodge]

Because its a 25th anniversary edition of a classic?

[energongoodie]

:D

[Psychosplodge]

Well that was more... :D

[Mr Mystery]

Get paid 19 December.....I'm on this.

$158 translates to £97.60.

Utter, utter bargain.

I SHALL BE THE ENVY OF MY FRIENDS.

Unless of course they get it too. In which case our mutual envy will cancel out.

[Psychosplodge]

But mutual envy cancellation could cause a massive cascade reaction with unknown consequences.

[Mr Mystery]

Look, all I know is that I'm still trying to scrape my trousers down off the ceiling.

[Psychosplodge]

icky

[Mr Mystery]

Sticky.

[Psychosplodge]

both?

[eldargal]

Looks like the usual barrage of Kickstarter whine has started. 'Ooh, why haven't they updated it already even though it's 4am where they are?' 'Why are the stretch goals so stupid?' 'Why do I have to pay for stuff?' 'Why don't they have more information about shipping, it's only 31 days left you know!'.

[energongoodie]

I think we have to accept that this is how kickstarters are going to go from now on.
A bunch of people throwing money at something they apparently hate?

[eldargal]

There are a bunch of people who pledge 1 dollar and then just b!tch about it as far as I can tell, I even recognise a couple of names every now and then from previous campaigns where they b1tched and moaned.

[Psychosplodge]

You mean people are that board of trolling now, they pay to troll a new environment?

[eldargal]

Well they cancel the pledge before they have to pay I assume, even seen some boast about that.

[Psychosplodge]

Just when you think you've seen everything on the internet, you turn over another rock and find new forms of wretchedness.

[Mr Mystery]

So, throw a noob a bone here....

Pledging. How does it work?

If I pledge now, when does the money change hands?

I need to know!

[Gotthammer]

Put in how much $$$ you're putting in for and select the reward level (they're laid out just like on the front page), then put in your credit card details. You're not charged until the thing ends, and can cancel your pledge up to 24 hours before the finish.

[eldargal]

TYou should get charged when the campaign ends, that's the usual arrangement.

[Mr Mystery]

Yespleasethankyoumrsgotthammerma'amthankyouyesplea se.

And backed, to the tune of $158 canadian.

And Kickstarter cherry popped at the same time.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm not sure how relevant, but the music version I've used before takes it immediately if you use paypal or when it closes if you use card.

[Mr Mystery]

Once you've mentioned your pledge amount it advises it's taken on closure of the funding.

Really, really stoked for this! Especially as I now get to spend the next 31 days squeeing and cooing over the stretch things as they're smashed!

And some very, very pretty things being shown now too. Such as an insert for the Sarcophagus!

[iamian]

welp... Im all in.

[Gotthammer]

I'm in (because I really need another copy :rolleyes: ), also updated the links on the first post.

[Mr Mystery]

Wonder how much they'll raise.

I reckon over $1,000,000 easily.

[GrauGeist]

Yespleasethankyoumrsgotthammerma'amthankyouyesplea se.

And backed, to the tune of $158 canadian.

And Kickstarter cherry popped at the same time.

Does that $ 158 CAD include shipping?

Also, is this GW & Hasbro-approved?

Because if there is any legal issue, it's dead meat.

[Mr Mystery]

Seems it's all above board and good.

Shipping seems to be confused, going on recent email. But Spain - UK shouldn't be bank breaking.

[eldargal]

The shipping calculator is broken apparently, they are working on fixing it now. Not sure how it is broken, just says it is in the update.

[GrauGeist]

Estimated shipping shouldn't be an issue, though. If they know how big & heavy the box is, they should be able to simply tell what the minimum charge will be.

[Mr Mystery]

Then don't invest.

Absolutely drooling over the stretchy bits. Moar the merrier for us top lop level pledgers!

[Mr Mystery]

Buggizzle!

Seems to be an IP challenge against Heroquest, so Kickstarter has been suspended, pending outcome.

[SaveModifier]

Yeah, the license issue has looked dodgy from the start, they've seemed convinced that having the trade mark in Spain means they have a licence to sell it around the world, however, obviously someone else thinks differently. I dont like the way GameZone have ducked the question because they've decided they're right when other people aren't sure, its doubtful they've actually had any legal advice on this issue.

I'm glad its all happened now though, rather than a year down the line when they already have all the money

[energongoodie]

Agreed that it is better that it happened now but this is kind of ridiculous.

[Mr Mystery]

Just a challenge at the moment.

Granted it doesn't sound too good, but you never know.

[Mr Mystery]

From Gamezone Email to backers.

Please bear with us. Gamezone and Moon Design are in a meeting negotiating a settlement for both parts at this time.

Moon Design believes that their interests in the HEROQUEST brand within the USA will be infringed upon. Although we are not distributing or selling our product in US territory. As a precaution Moon Design presented a C/D on the 27th of Nov. Our talks are coming to a point where the negotiation will benefit all those involved, which finally would let us offer our product in stores in the USA sometime next year.
The Moon Design C/D was suspended, but on the table, as another element in the negotiation. Here at Gamezone it is our hopeful understand that its activation is possibly by error as both parties where coming to an agreement. Said agreement would finally end beneficially for Fans in the USA by opening the physical distribution to stores in that country. This brief pause of activity is as harmful to the interests of Moon Design as it is to Gamezone Miniatures.

We are as surprised as the Heroquest community, we didn’t expect that on Thanksgiving, of all days, to be wrapped up in this mess, that is so disagreeable for everyone involved. On a day such as this it is extremely complicated to get in touch with Moon Design. We are working diligently on a solution so we can continue with the project from where it is at the moment and reinforce it for the future.

Thank you. Dionisio

==============================================

Disculpad las molestias. Gamezone Miniatures y Moon Design estábamos manteniendo conversaciones y negociando un acuerdo entre ambas partes.

Cautelarmente Moon Design presentó un CyD dos días atrás. Moon Design entendía que sus intereses sobre la marca Heroquest en USA se podían ver perjudicados. Aunque nosotros ni estamos distribuyendo ni estamos vendiendo ningún producto en territorio USA. Las conversaciones entre ambas estaban fluyendo a un acuerdo en el que ambas partes nos veríamos beneficiadas. Acuerdo que garantizaría el progreso del proyecto en KS sin problemas por su parte. Y que además nos permitiría poder ofrecer el año que viene nuestro producto en las tiendas de USA también.

El CyD de Moon Design estaba en suspenso, pero sobre la mesa, como un elemento más de negociación. Nosotros desde Gamezone entendemos que el hacerse efectivo puede ser debido a un error. Ya que ambos estábamos poniéndonos de acuerdo. Dicho acuerdo beneficiaría sobre todo a los aficionados de USA, al quedar abierta la distribución física a las tiendas. Esta suspensión transitoria nos perjudica a ambas partes, tanto a Moon Design como a Gamezone Miniatures.

Nosotros estamos tan sorprendidos como vosotros, no esperábamos que el día de acción de gracia nos trajera esta situación tan desagradabale para todos. En un día como hoy está siendo complicadísimo contactar con Moon Design. Estamos intentando solucionarlo, para retomar el proyecto donde estaba. Y con fortuna, más fortalecido.

Gracias. Dionisio.


==============================================
Heroquest 25th Anniversary Edition /

[GrauGeist]

I'm glad its all happened now though, rather than a year down the line when they already have all the money

Quite frankly, I'm surprised Moon didn't wait until the campaign was farther along for a better estimate of total (US) revenue. Because, let's face it, every US penny spent with GameZone is a penny that cannibalizes Moon's sales and license.

[Mr Mystery]

Depends entirely on how national boundaries and that are defined on Kickstarter.

I know a bit about international banking from my job, and based on that as a rough litmus test, the sales would count as Spanish, not US. Not perfect by any stretch, but hopefully gives some idea about the lack of a clear cut thing.

Though MtG seem able to block sales of booster boxes from US Websites to the UK (personal experience here), but whether or not that's backed by a law, or a simple contract clause, I don't know.

[Mr Mystery]

So, a bit further info.....

Clearly, it's neither GW nor Hasbro (current owners of MB Games), but this other party.

Seems they're predominantly hacked off about the use of the name Heroquest, claiming they have copyright on it from a roleplay game they sell. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeroQuest_(role-playing_game))

So it's not about the game Heroquest we all know and love, but the name Heroquest, which we all know and love and frankly, assosciate most with the game we all know and love.

Yet the copyright in the US appears to theirs.

As touched on above, the key issue will be international boundaries, and where each sale counts as occuring.

In the UK at least (going on personal knowledge, specifically financial stuff) it is defined by where the product is being sold. So for instance, Yankee Bob decides he wants a credit card, and for reasons best known to himself, applies for one sold in the UK. Yankee Bob gets his card. If he needs to make a complaint, then British Law applies here.

Now how transferrable that is to this situation, I simply don't know, but it does give us a starting point.

Assuming similar consideration is applied, Moon Design can't prevent the launch of Heroquest in Europe, nor can they interfere with fund raising through Kickstarter for the same reason.

[Nicodemus_]

Here's what came through last night:



Moon Design believes that their interests in the HEROQUEST brand within the USA will be infringed upon. Although we are not distributing or selling our product in US territory. As a precaution Moon Design presented a C/D on the 27th of Nov. Our talks are coming to a point where the negotiation will benefit all those involved, which finally would let us offer our product in stores in the USA sometime next year.
The Moon Design C/D was suspended, but on the table, as another element in the negotiation. Here at Gamezone it is our hopeful understand that its activation is possibly by error as both parties where coming to an agreement. Said agreement would finally end beneficially for Fans in the USA by opening the physical distribution to stores in that country. This brief pause of activity is as harmful to the interests of Moon Design as it is to Gamezone Miniatures.

We are as surprised as the Heroquest community, we didn’t expect that on Thanksgiving, of all days, to be wrapped up in this mess, that is so disagreeable for everyone involved. On a day such as this it is extremely complicated to get in touch with Moon Design. We are working diligently on a solution so we can continue with the project from where it is at the moment and reinforce it for the future.

Thank you. Dionisio


~N

[phil035]

surely the copyright and trademark for Heroquest would still be valid from when the last expansion came out(never plaid but things like this bug me)

[Psychosplodge]

Isn't it a possibility that Moon Designs are actually infringing whoever actually owns the boardgames NA rights?

[Mr Mystery]

Honestly? Dunno. The wiki suggests not, but hey, that's wiki.

New email assured GZ continue to work with Moon Productions to get things moving.

[Psychman]

This also came through last night:




Official Update from Moon Design

We want to give some background on the dispute surrounding Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign to launch a remake of the hybrid board game/roleplaying game originally published by Milton Bradley called “Heroquest”.Last week, Moon Design petitioned Kickstarter to remove the crowdfunding campaign for Gamezone’s “Heroquest” game. “Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products. To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment.

The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark. For some time now we have been working on creating a board game called “Heroquest” pertaining to the mythology of Glorantha and an updated version of our Heroquest roleplaying game.

The project by Gamezone, a Spanish game company, proposes to remake a role-playing/board game originally produced by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop in 1989. The project calls their game “Heroquest” which is identical to our registered mark and easily confused with it.

Gamezone initially asked us for use of the Heroquest trademark on July 31, 2013. The next day we asked them if they could provide us with a copy of any written agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of Hasbro’s board game. Gamezone did not provide us with any written confirmation (and as of this date still has not done so). On August 26, 2013, we informed Gamezone by email that we must decline their request.

Despite being explicitly refused permission to use our trademark, Gamezone went ahead and launched this Kickstarter. As a New York State corporation, Kickstarter is subject to US trademark laws and the use of our trademark in the campaign was a violation of those laws.We told Gamezone that they needed to immediately get a licensing agreement from us (which, among other things, would require that they pay us for the rights to the name since it would mean foregoing our opportunity to release our game using our trademark and to compensate us for that lost revenue).

Gamezone did not get back to us within the period we set, and rather than have this end up in litigation (which could also bring in other parties with IP at stake), we asked Kickstarter to suspend the campaign. We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP. Gamezone has assured us that they can get such permission, but until we see confirmation, we cannot responsibly license our trademark to be used in this Kickstarter campaign.

We sympathize with the fans of the Milton Bradley game who enthusiastically supported this project. We strongly support Kickstarter and the revitalization of old games with a loyal following. However, such activities must be done with the consent of the trademark holder and of any other legal owners of the property.

Source: http://www.glorantha.com/background-concerning-suspension-of-gamezones-kickstarter-campaign/

[GrauGeist]

Good luck with that, Moon.

GameZone was clearly trying an end-run around US IP law, so they likely have bupkis.

I don't think GZ has any US license at all, hence the stalling and "trust me" response.

[Mr Mystery]

Had the counter shpiel from GZ over email (all pledgers will have that email.)

Seems easiest option is to decamp the crowd funding to a European platform, which would mean Moon couldn't interfere.

Though I have to say, I am amused that Moon feel a board game would undermine their IP. Ask any fellow nerd about Heroquest, and I pretty much guarantee they won't be gibbering about Moon's game. Not that that's at all relevant to the issue at hand, just an observation.

[GrauGeist]

Seems easiest option is to decamp the crowd funding to a European platform, which would mean Moon couldn't interfere.

The issue is that it would lose easy access to many of the American backers.

Also, it's a question how GZ would get paid - will the backers give Moon their Credit Cards, or will they go through US-based PayPal?

If using US-based PayPal, well, that's playing right into Moon's hands, as PayPal loves nothing better than an excuse to freeze someone else's funds, and $500k (or whatever it was) would be golden for PayPal. With the fraud angle, PP's lawyers can tie up the money for months, forcing GZ to jump through hoops go get it.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet by my understanding (which is imperfect), as soon as it's not hosted in the US, Moon can't do owt.

That's like saying a US company can't invest in an overseas company because a US company holds a trademark/copyright in the US.

If that makes sense.

One example would be Dennis The Menace. In the US, he's an unruly comic character. In the UK he's an entirely different unruly comic character. Each publisher holds the rights to the name Dennis the Menace in their respective territories.

A US company could fund a UK Dennis the Menace film, and the US rights owner couldn't take action, as it's just the name, not the actual character, and vice Versa.

Though it is important to note the UK Dennis the Menace is infinitely superior :p

[Ezaviel]

Moon's response really gives me a "No way, we hijacked this dormant IP to steal it's brand recognition long before you guys tried to revitalise the beloved franchise of the same name, give us money." kinda vibe.

Yeah, they may be entitled to do it, but it's a jerk move.

As for GZ trying to go ahead after asking for the licence and being denied, well, that was ridiculously stupid.

[Dave Bone]

Had the counter shpiel from GZ over email (all pledgers will have that email.)

Seems easiest option is to decamp the crowd funding to a European platform, which would mean Moon couldn't interfere.

Though I have to say, I am amused that Moon feel a board game would undermine their IP. Ask any fellow nerd about Heroquest, and I pretty much guarantee they won't be gibbering about Moon's game. Not that that's at all relevant to the issue at hand, just an observation.

When I think of the term HeroQuest, I think of the MB board game that got me into gaming.

Not anything that has to do with Glorantha. I know what that place is, and I'm aware of the line, but for me and my entire gaming club - when you say HeroQuest you mean the Warhammer board game from Milton Bradley / Games Workshop.

[Conspyre]

Moon's response really gives me a "No way, we hijacked this dormant IP to steal it's brand recognition long before you guys tried to revitalise the beloved franchise of the same name, give us money." kinda vibe.

Yeah, they may be entitled to do it, but it's a jerk move.

As for GZ trying to go ahead after asking for the licence and being denied, well, that was ridiculously stupid.

Yeah, apparently Moon Design (or the guy who originally wrote their RPG) wanted the HeroQuest name ages ago, but I play damn near everything and only ever run into the "other" HeroQuest in the context of being disappointed that it's not stuff for the one that I actually want to play. I'll take Fimir over duckmen any day.

[Seerkarandras]

I have never even heard of this moon company. So am I to understand that Hasboro, toy mega conglomerate, and GW the SS of IP law did not have the rights to the Name "heroquest". At least here in the U.S.

If the rights to the name expired the guy from moon must have been poised to copy write the name like a fanboy camping out for a new xbox as soon as it was not renewed by GW and or Hasboro.

[Kernbanks]

If GZ has the thumbs up to redo the game, just call the kickstarter Questing Heros, or Heros Questing, or Quest of Heros and be done with it. We know what it is and it will only block the kick starter. Once they start making the game in Spain they can put any title they want on the box and ram it in Moon's face. I agree with Ezaviel... Moon snuck in and grabbed the name and now they want money for nothing.

[RGilbert26]

Or they could just get permission from Hasbro and agree to compensate Moon, instead of being jerks.

[Psychosplodge]

I don't get it still.
How are moon claiming something as theirs when its been around 25 years?

[Ashriel]

I agree with Ezaviel... Moon snuck in and grabbed the name and now they want money for nothing.

Greg Stafford founded the game company Chaosium in 1975. The RPG Runequest was published in 1978. The rules system for the Runquest RPG has become know as Basic Roleplaying and Chaosium has published several games using the system. The following is a list of some of the games that used the rules in addition to Runequest:

Stormbringer (1981)
Call of Cthulhu (1981)
Worlds of Wonder (1982)
Superworld (1983)
ElfQuest (1984)
Ringworld (1984)
Pendragon (1985)
Hawkmoon (1985)
Nephilim (1992)
Elric! (1993)

They term HeroQuest has always been in the setting of Runequest ands is tied to the setting. Greg left Chaosium and lost the rights to the name RuneQuest. There is a lot more history here are well including the founding of Moon Design. However, due to Avalon Hill (ironically now owned by Hasbro) controlling the name Runequest, the game name was changed to HeroQuest. They regained the rights to RuneQuest, and now there are two seperate RPGs, but RuneQuest is controlled by the company Design Mechanism.

Here is a recently sucessful kickstarter that Moon Design created to publish a setting book for Glorantha designed to be used with their game HeroQuest or RuneQuest.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/224590870/the-guide-to-glorantha/posts
They raised $260,000 and it is laughable to think they grabbed the name Hero Quest to make a buck from GZ or Hasbro.

Here is a link to my Bolter and Chainsword profile. Because I am delurking to make this post, I wanted to prove that I am involved in the 40K hobby, but my first love has always been RPGs, specifically Call of Cthulhu and Pendragon.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/user/80-ashriel/

[Blaznak]

I don't get it still.
How are moon claiming something as theirs when its been around 25 years?

Yeah, I don't get it either. Wikipedia calls the Milton Bradley game HeroQuest with rpg a disambiguation. I would have bet money the RPG was diluting the board game. Who knows? Really wacky story.

[Spärky]

Nobody gives a rat's *** about the RPG. I'd never even heard of the damn thing until all this BS surfaced. Screw moon publishing for ruining this with their stupid 'well it's my ball and I'm going home' attitude. THEY are the ones with the shoddy knock off, trying to cash in on the success of others. It's like a Van Halen split all over again.

[Ashriel]

THEY are the ones with the shoddy knock off, trying to cash in on the success of others.

Isn't that what GZ are doing, they didnt create HeroQuest? Not that there is anything wrong with that, as long as they get the rights.

[Ezaviel]

Or they could just get permission from Hasbro and agree to compensate Moon, instead of being jerks.

Except that the response from Moon suggests that their idea of compensation is to be paid for the lost earnings from their "upcoming" board game, which they feel will be ruined by HeroQuest. So they are likely demanding some crazy ammount of money. Especially when I guarantee most of the sales of this "HeroQuest" will be from people who mistake it for actual HeroQuest.

[Ashriel]

Especially when I guarantee most of the sales of this "HeroQuest" will be from people who mistake it for actual HeroQuest.

They(Moon Design) just had a successful $260,000 Kickstarter for a set of 2 background books. They do have fans. It is a shame that this is happening, I have some friends that enjoyed HeroQuest back when it came out. The only reason Moon Design has the game named HeroQuest was because they briefly lost the rights to the name RuneQuest to Avalon Hill, which was where the game started in 1978.

[Ezaviel]

They(Moon Design) just had a successful $260,000 Kickstarter for a set of 2 background books. They do have fans. It is a shame that this is happening, I have some friends that enjoyed HeroQuest back when it came out. The only reason Moon Design has the game named HeroQuest was because they briefly lost the rights to the name RuneQuest to Avalon Hill, which was where the game started in 1978.

Well, then it is more popular then I would have expected.

However, the idea that they lost the name of their popular IP to copyrights shenanigans, so they grabbed the IP of a different popular game to replace it does not make me sympathetic to them. I guess it is possible that they had no idea there was a prior game named HeroQuest at the time, and it was just luck that the rights had expired, but I find that unlikely.

Though them having been bitten before by the loss of rights does explain their heavy handed response.

[Ashriel]

Well, then it is more popular then I would have expected.

However, the idea that they lost the name of their popular IP to copyrights shenanigans, so they grabbed the IP of a different popular game to replace it does not make me sympathetic to them. I guess it is possible that they had no idea there was a prior game named HeroQuest at the time, and it was just luck that the rights had expired, but I find that unlikely.

Though them having been bitten before by the loss of rights does explain their heavy handed response.

The term "HeroQuest" had been in the game since 1978, it only made sense for the name to be chosen.


Special: HeroQuest

From the first, RQ players were intrigued by references to a "higher" level of gaming: HeroQuesting. Set in the mythic "God Time" of Glorantha, HeroQuests surpassed the ordinary mundanity of Gloranthan existence and allowed individuals of incredible power to interact with the gods and basic forces of the universe. Success in HeroQuesting could allow a character to become a Demi-Hero, a Hero, a Superhero (not the caped kind), perhaps even a god. But although Chaosium often referred to HeroQuest as an upcoming product, it was never published. Apparently some HeroQuests were run in-house at Chaosium, but the rules used were a matter of speculation. Fans created a wide variety of add-on HeroQuesting rules for RuneQuest and designed their own HeroQuests, inspired by fiction in such works as the RuneQuest Companion.

Eventually Milton Bradley published a major board game under the name HeroQuest. Chaosium had apparently failed to get or maintain the rights to the name. But fans and publications still referred to HeroQuests, and many continued to create their own versions for their own campaigns. Some can still be found online, many years later.

Much later, Milton Bradley gave up the trademark for HeroQuest (the boardgame had long since gone out of print). Greg Stafford's Issaries company picked up the rights to the name, and the next major revision of their non-BRP-derived Hero Wars RPG was called HeroQuest. It has kept that name ever since.

So now there are several kinds of "HeroQuests" in the gaming business. When it comes to RuneQuest, however, there are HeroQuests which were designed for RuneQuest II and III using the Gloranthan setting, which have no relation to the Gloranthan RPG HeroQuest - which is, now, the official Gloranthan system. Confusing, isn't it?

from
http://www.maranci.net/rqpast.htm

I had actually only stumbled on this link as a result of this thread, I just saw why they sold RuneQuest to Avalon Hill, it is interesting


The reasons for the deal seemed obvious: compared to Chaosium, Avalon Hill was a giant. They could put far more resources behind RQ than Chaosium ever could. And Chaosium needed funds; by all accounts they would have soon faced bankruptcy if they hadn't sold one of their two prime properties, either Call of Cthulhu or RQ. By selling RQ but retaining control over Glorantha, it seemed they might have the best of both worlds. And so Chaosium created RuneQuest III for Avalon Hill.

[GrauGeist]

They term HeroQuest has always been in the setting of Runequest ands is tied to the setting.

Here is a recently sucessful kickstarter that Moon Design created to publish a setting book for Glorantha designed to be used with their game HeroQuest or RuneQuest.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/224590870/the-guide-to-glorantha/posts
They raised $260,000 and it is laughable to think they grabbed the name Hero Quest to make a buck from GZ or Hasbro.

Thank you for sharing some actual information - very helpful!

ETA - I wonder what the RPG boards are saying about this HQ boardgame upstart! Haha.

[Dogboy]

I have never even heard of this moon company. So am I to understand that Hasboro, toy mega conglomerate, and GW the SS of IP law did not have the rights to the Name "heroquest". At least here in the U.S.

If the rights to the name expired the guy from moon must have been poised to copy write the name like a fanboy camping out for a new xbox as soon as it was not renewed by GW and or Hasboro.

I think we are missing the point here. Which is Moon Design asked for proof that Game Zone had the rights to remake the game and not just make something called HeroQuest. If GameZone had shown a license agreement things would be different. Why? Moon Design has the US trademark but GW still has the UK (amongst other) trademarks. Moon Design trades to the UK, which means Games Workshop is aware and allows it.
Games Workshop has history with Chaosium and Runequest, due to licensing it in the early 80s (http://www.amazon.com/Runequest-2nd-Edition-Games-Workshop/dp/B008FSE0NW). They were fully aware that they were going to produce a game called HeroQuest, but beat them to it. Fair play to them, though a big fan of Runequest, I really liked HeroQuest and if GameZone can prove they are in the right I'll back their KickStarter to the hilt. But the fact remains that MD asked GZ to prove that they had the rights to make this game, long before they kicked of the funding and they ignored it and went ahead anyway. Moon Designs' hand are tied, and they are gonna face a lot of bad publicity and possibly worse from GW/Hasbro if they relent.

As you point out GW are litigious, and Hasbro won't like people stealing their business. If Moon Design agree to let GZ go ahead without proof, they risk legal action too from GW/Hasbro for condoning it if it isn't on the level. My guess is that GW/Hasbro were waiting it out to see how things faired. As i say, hands tied.

[onlyonepinman]

IP disputes are generally quite petty and no-one comes out of them smelling of roses. If GameZone claim they have the legal rights to do this in Spain or Europe, move it to a European site and have done with it. But don't pay Moon Design a cent for something they haven't really earned.

[Ezaviel]

GW still has the UK (amongst other) trademarks.

Actually, I just did a search of the UK Trademarks (http://www.ipo.gov.uk), and GW doesn't appear to own Heroquest in the UK. A search for the term Heroquest doesn't come up with any current registration of the name. I even looked at the full list of trademarks that GW own, it's not in there. Unless I missed something?

[Sargejohnson]

Actually, I just did a search of the UK Trademarks (http://www.ipo.gov.uk), and GW doesn't appear to own Heroquest in the UK. A search for the term Heroquest doesn't come up with any current registration of the name. I even looked at the full list of trademarks that GW own, it's not in there. Unless I missed something?

I am not too sure, but I do remember seeing packaging for the game in Australia (the only place I've actually seen the game, having grown up in the USA, and never even knowing about GW products until 2005) and it didn't say anything about Games Workshop, but it did mention Citadel Miniatures on it, along with Milton Bradley. Perhaps checking back in the pages of history, weren't Citadel a different branch from GW at the time? Kinda like Forge World now? Might they have held partial copyright? Otherwise, it would probably be a case of Milton Bradley owning the copyright, which is now obviously a part of Hasbro...

[Ashriel]

I saw this:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00001355869

[Ashriel]

I searched the UK site for a trademark for HeroQuest and it looks like Hasbro UK has it until 2015. I posted a link but it is waiting on admin approval

[Ezaviel]

I saw this:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00001355869

That is for Video games specifically though.

Actually, looking through Hasbro's full list of TMs, they do own 3 different types of Heroquest TM, for video games as above, plus game parts and books/manuals.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00001355871
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00001355870

Dunno why they didn't come up when I did the search yesterday.

[Ezaviel]

I am not too sure, but I do remember seeing packaging for the game in Australia (the only place I've actually seen the game, having grown up in the USA, and never even knowing about GW products until 2005) and it didn't say anything about Games Workshop, but it did mention Citadel Miniatures on it, along with Milton Bradley. Perhaps checking back in the pages of history, weren't Citadel a different branch from GW at the time? Kinda like Forge World now? Might they have held partial copyright? Otherwise, it would probably be a case of Milton Bradley owning the copyright, which is now obviously a part of Hasbro...

Pretty sure GW was mentioned somewhere on the box, because HeroQuest was what got me into Warhammer back in 93.

[edit] Yeah, it has the Games Workshop logo etc on the back cover, the front does only say Milton Bradley.

[Darren Richardson]

the whole debate over the name is because the MB Game was called Hero Quest with a space in the middle while the US roleplaying game was Heroquest without the space, because if you look closely at the box and the manuals, you will notice that the q is capitalised meaning a space in a title has been used.

The board game MB/GW put out is far superior IMHO to that old RPG :)

It's how I got into Warhammer and 40K


Yeah, apparently Moon Design (or the guy who originally wrote their RPG) wanted the HeroQuest name ages ago, but I play damn near everything and only ever run into the "other" HeroQuest in the context of being disappointed that it's not stuff for the one that I actually want to play. I'll take Fimir over duckmen any day.

[Morgrim]

GZ are fools anyway. Sooner or later someone was always going to come down on them like a tonne of bricks and it is just a little surprising they haven't gotten GW or Hasbro doing it. But then, I suppose both those companies are aware that while the trademarks on the names might be a bit iffy it'd probably be a lot harder for a court to deny that the contents are a blatant rip off and that there hasn't been a sufficient amount of modification to count as a new product. So by waiting a few months they could get a stronger case and simultaneously gauge whether there is enough demand to consider reviving the product themselves.

Or at least that's the way I'm reading it. It seems that Moon Design actually has a stronger case for the HeroQuest name as an RPG, and GW as a board game, so it makes sense that they're discussing that bit between themselves already.

[Ezaviel]

the whole debate over the name is because the MB Game was called Hero Quest with a space in the middle while the US roleplaying game was Heroquest without the space, because if you look closely at the box and the manuals, you will notice that the q is capitalised meaning a space in a title has been used.

I don't think that is related to the debate. My HeroQuest copy has no space in the name, and the trademarks registered to MB and GW had/have no space in them either.


GZ are fools anyway.

Yeah, this thing always felt like it would end badly. Which is a massive shame, I would love to get a revamped version of HeroQuest :(

[GrauGeist]

IP disputes are generally quite petty and no-one comes out of them smelling of roses. If GameZone claim they have the legal rights to do this in Spain or Europe, move it to a European site and have done with it. But don't pay Moon Design a cent for something they haven't really earned.

Just make sure they don't take any money from any US backers, or ship any product into the US.

Of course, if GZ chooses to do so, Moon would be well within their rights to have the product confiscated and destroyed by US Customs as infringing materials.

Not that GZ would care in the slightest. They would have gotten their money upfront and taken their products. Any Customs and shipping issues would be pushed onto the backer. And US backers suing them in Spain? Hahaha!

[GrauGeist]

Actually, thinking about it, as a get-rich-quick scheme, GZ has a pretty good one. 25th Anniversary creates pressure, and draws huge nostalgia funding. Corporation is located far away from the US, so they can't be sued. Funding is in non-US funds (Canadian Dollars), so it's very hard to reverse payments. GZ can collect the money, and pay themselves and a family lawyer handsomely, with the expectation that all of the money gets burned up internally "fighting to get the game made".

[Mr Mystery]

Official announcement expected tonight.

Www.heroquestclassic.com

No tinfoil hats required.

[Gotthammer]

Dear Backers

Last Friday we were surprised by the pause placed on our kickstarter Project of HQ25. We wrote a communiqué to you, which was also posted on our site heroquestclassic.com. In our letter we tried to communicate to you in the clearest fashion what was happening and as well to share with you all, our petition to kickstarter to have the project reopened. To do all of this publicly was to us the correct way for you as our backers to be informed of the situation and the most correct and transparent way to communicate with you as well, as our backers you have the right to know what was going on with this project.

We have done what you have ask for, we have waited in silence for KS’ answer. It has arrived. KS would prefer to keep the project on hold and wait for us to come to an agreement with third part.

The KS answer can be seen at our site.

KS’ position does not agree with as at all. The situation produced by the pause of the project has been harmful.

We do not feel that our legitimate rights over the Trademark have been protected and above all we do not wish to do business with third part under threats or duress of any sort. As a result we are proceeding to solicit KS to cancel our project on their platform.

Is this the end of HQ25? Of course not! Keep reading!

We accept the all of the respectful critics that has come our way because we learn from these things and if someone thinks differently they are free to express those opinions. What we do not accept is the disinformation y distortions that have been happening during the project's pause on KS in which we have remained silent and waited.

During these past few days our creative design crew has still been working on the development of various components, the same as always, the idea being to not lose any energy with this controversy.

The thirteen on the gallows, as we have fondly started calling the 13 professionals that are implicated in the creation of the project, have as a priority the development of this commemorative game.

We are truly more worried about you, the backers. We want thank you for the messages of support that have been rolling in. The public reaction to the news of a new edition of this classic provided undeniable and sincere joy to many. We will hold onto this as the rout to follow.

After this communiqué is sent out we will proceed to ask KS to cancel the project on their platform. After this is done we will immediately restart and continue the HQ25 project. More info at heroquestclassic.com tomorrow. Therefore the HQ25 project will return to active status. We will move from victims to survivors and conquer as we go.

We understand that KS has a larger public base than any other crowed funding platform today; we understand that moving the project to another site will mean that out backer support will decrease. However we are ready and willing to continue this campaign in a place that will offer us the correct guaranties for our trademark. We would prefer to raise fewer funds and still move forward with and produce it in time for the 25th anniversary.

We await your support and enthusiasm in this renewed crowed funding campaign.

Again, we would like to thank our backers from the bottom of our hearts, please do not regret supporting us. Let us all together get this back on track and make this dream a reality.

Gamezone

So they're going to go the indie route a'la Tentacle Bento - think they'll be ok, just hope they've got shipping sorted out though.

[lattd]

So they got caught acting questionably and their plan is to go to another crowd sourcing site and start again where they will probably get caught again?

[Psychosplodge]

Or they ran up against US protectionism and took it elsewhere?

[Mr Mystery]

Possibly.

Me, I need to think about this before recommiting. Simply because when the KS one was due to end, I know I would have had the funds to cover it.

Not worried at all about the trademark bit for now, as Moon were in my eyes greedy little chancers in this act.

[Psychosplodge]

Actually lattd aren't you doing law or something?
How would it stand regarding distribution if they have rights to it in spain?

[Mr Mystery]

From my understanding, you can sell to an individual in any country (barring UN restrictions and that), but a company in a country where you do not hold copyright would have difficulty physically stocking it.

See my earlier comments about Dennis The Menace for an example of two companies holding entirely legitimate trademarks on one name in their respective countries, and how they get around it (quite amicably too it would seem).

[lattd]

In England atleast it would be very grey, you couldn't stock the items if you knew that their was a copyright issue. However that doesn't stop you from buying from another country. However I'm more concerned by the fact that the copyright use is questionable, the Hasbro license issue concerns me.

[Mr Mystery]

They seem pretty adamant they have Spanish rights, which is curiously specific, and does make wonder if they are indeed correct.

However, the wording 'strict European law' seems to suggest a wee bit creative RAW at play...

I really do hope they get this off the ground again, but I have a bad feeling someone else is about to hit this puppy on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

[lattd]

Yes I find it extremely odd to focus on Spanish rights when they were asking for Canadian dollars on an American website.

[Wolfshade]

Jurisdiction on the internet is a very grey thing.

Where is any of it based? Where the company HQ is? Where the buyer is? Where the server is located? Where the host ISP is? Where the server owners are located?

Tis a nightmare, and why some internet retailers can obsfucate their sales in particular regions to be more tax efficient...

[Mr Mystery]

Wolfie gets it in one!

Ultimately, it seems they were caught out on a technicality.

Due to vagaries of international copyright, trademarks and that, and the free market, there is nothing to stop say a US investor investing in a foreign product which uses a Trademark of a US company. No law has been broken, and nothing is below the belt. Issue here seems to be Kickstarter itself being a US company being perceived to be in violation of US IP and that.

It really is a sod to straighten out.

For instance, I can tell you that Paypal Europe are based in Eire (Ireland, Southern Ireland. All the same thing. But Eire is correct). This would put them outside of UK jurisdiction for financial services. However, Paypal are voluntarily under UK jurisdiction and have been since 2nd July 2007.


Prior to that, they were based in Surrey, so came under compulsory jurisdiction.

Crowd funding as a concept is not currently regulated in the UK, though I'm not sure about anywhere else in the world. However, this is about to change. That will hopefully nail down jurisdiction issues, in the UK at least, and it would be quite unusual for other countries to buck that trend, as it would leave consumers in the breeze, which is not the point of regulation.

[Wolfshade]

[As an aside: Free Ireland does things differently, and considers where companies are based, based on where their HQ are, so Paypal they would consider to be based in the US so not hit them with corporation tax]

[Mr Mystery]

So that's why their skint!

[GrauGeist]

Jurisdiction on the internet is a very grey thing.

Jurisdiction at the US port of entry can be very black and white.

If there are unlicensed, unauthorized imports, the US rightsholder can demand their impoundment and destruction.

[Mr Mystery]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand.....it's down again (http://www.heroquestclassic.com/last-hour-project-update/).

I don't normally like to be a negative nancy, but looks like that's our lot.

For better or for worse, justified or not, looks most likely that we won't be getting any 25th Heroquest funtimes.

[GrauGeist]

This isn't surprising. Verkami was looking down the barrel of massive chargebacks and potential accessory to fraud claims from backers, along with potential additional accessory if GZ got sued by GW and/or Hasbro Europe.

HQ25 is officially "toxic" business.

If GZ is going to fund, they'll have to do it on their own website.
____

ETA: the "accessory" bit is because Verkami reviewed and approved prior to launch, so they share some responsibility due to their editorial-equivalent role. They're not strictly hands-off, so not insulated from GZ's bad behavior.

[Ashriel]

If they actually had the rights to create the game, it seems like they would be good to go. If they are serious, they should quit trying to be cute and just call it what it is and make a "spiritual successor" to the game, like inXile did with Torment:Tides of Numenera when they decided that it was too expensive to get the rights to do a proper sequel to Planescape:Torment. Call the game Quest of the Hero and be done with it.

[Ezaviel]

It seems pretty clear that this mystical "permission" GZ claim to have from Hasbro does not exist.

[odinsgrandson]

Hasbro never gave them permission- I couldn't find that they claimed to have it, only that they claimed Hasbro technically couldn't stop them from doing this. Game Zone hasn't been very clear all along.

From what I've pieced together, here's what happened. Hasbro stopped renewing the trademark on Heroquest (which makes sense for a product they are no longer producing). That means that the name can be trademarked by other people (in the US Moon Design jumped on it, and in Spain Gamezone grabbed it).

Now owning a trademark on Heroquest does not give you any rights to anything that was previously associated with the trademark. So, while they had the rights to use the name 'Heroquest' they were not within their rights to imply that this is connected to the old Milton Bradley game.

Hasbro could have brought them to court over that, and raked them over the coals (Hasbro has won cases in the past where game elements were re-worded- and in this case Gamezone was advertising that they would be plagierizing the old rules set). The Moon Design people were worried that they would be pulled into the case if they did nothing to stop this, so they sent a cease and desist to Kickstarter (they don't have any connection to Spain, so don't have to worry about that).

Kickstarter isn't invested in Heroquest like Game Zone is, and there was simply on reason for them to go to court over it. Moon Design's complaint was reasonable, so they took it down.


Jurisdiction on the internet is a very grey thing.

Where is any of it based? Where the company HQ is? Where the buyer is? Where the server is located? Where the host ISP is? Where the server owners are located?

Tis a nightmare, and why some internet retailers can obsfucate their sales in particular regions to be more tax efficient...

Yes, there are a lot of crazy things that need to be worked out in court. Is Kickstarter a method of distribution? Are they investors or customers? If they're investors, then this isn't a problem, but they don't behave like investors in a lot of ways (Kickstarters do not receive financial returns on their investments, for example).

The thing is, you don't want your Kickstarter project to be the one that has to suffer through that court case. And we probably don't want Heroquest to be the thing that decides it all.

I feel that Gamezone have been working in this gray area- where what they're doing should technically be legal even though it looks like it totally isn't. As a small company, that isn't a good place to stand (especially when you are so publicly showing how much value the property has).

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

In the UK, the Financial Conduct Authority are currently (though may be finished by now) consulting on the future regulation of the Crowd Funding industry within the UK. PDF about that available from this link. http://www.fca.org.uk/static/documents/consultation-papers/cp13-13.pdf

And make no mistake, it's not an 'if' but a 'when' in regards to UK regulation.

Once published, I'll be able to give people a clearer idea of how international transactions balance out and that, at least in principal.

[Mr Mystery]

And it seems it's back. Or at least was as of last night.

You can find it here (http://www.lanzanos.com/proyectos/heroquest-25-aniversario/necesidades/)

Not going to say I'm not tempted, but feeling less enthused.

My main concern is that any issues this time won't occur until after funding is raised and spent....

Buyer beware on this one I'm afraid.