Vampire Counts - Where Do I Go From Here?

[ElectricPaladin]

With the winning of the eBay auction, I take my first steps down this dark path. Here's what I got:

• Vamp Lord on Dragon
• Necromancer on Foot
• Necromancette on Horse
• Wight King
• Crypt Wraith
• 20 Zombies
• 20 Skeletons

I got about $70 left. What should I get? A box of ghouls? A vampire on foot? Then what? Do I want the corpse cart and wolves I missed out on by going the eBay route? Advise me - I am yours to manipulate.

Thanks in advance.

[Chronowraith]

I'd say you are missing two things to make a fieldable army... more fodder (skellies and/or zombies) and something killy (Terrorgheist, Blood Knights, Black Knights, Vargheists, Crypt Horrors, Varghuls, or Grave Guard). Additionally you probably want some redirect units... either wolves or bats typically.

Note: I added something killy because a vamp lord on a dragon won't be possible until you hit probably 2500 points (I don't have my book in front of me).

[ElectricPaladin]

I'd say you are missing two things to make a fieldable army... more fodder (skellies and/or zombies)...

Would you eschew ghouls? Last time I posted about this, I was pointed to ghouls as my go-to infantry unit. Skeletons because they're cheap, good anvils, and can easily grow to unlimited size with a minor upgrade, and ghouls because they can actually hit back. My impression of zombies is that they are cheap - which is good - and I should own a box or two because you never know when my wizard might cast that "up comes a unit of zombies" spell, but they aren't a great main infantry unit.


and something killy (Terrorgheist, Blood Knights, Black Knights, Vargheists, Crypt Horrors, Varghuls, or Grave Guard).

How are hexenwraiths? I love the models and the combination of the Ethereal rule and the ability to ride straight through enemy units and deal damage to them is entertaining.

Any and all of the others are great, too. None of them are off the table (except possibly the blood knights, if only because of the cost) - do you have a favorite?


Additionally you probably want some redirect units... either wolves or bats typically.

So I do want those wolves I passed on by not buying the battalion box straight off... hm... perhaps I should just see if I can get a battalion super cheap somewhere? That would leave me without the aforementioned "killy" unit, but I'd have even more skeletons and some ghouls and some wolves.

[Mr Mystery]

I found the remains of my second Zombie dragon kit the other day, including an intact Strigoi.

Happy to post it out to you if you want it.

[ElectricPaladin]

I found the remains of my second Zombie dragon kit the other day, including an intact Strigoi.

Happy to post it out to you if you want it.

Sure. I'm at:

Mark Stone
528 Merritt Ave, #107
Oakland, CA 94610

Do you want anything in return?

[Mr Mystery]

Sure. I'm at:

Mark Stone
528 Merritt Ave, #107
Oakland, CA 94610

Do you want anything in return?

Nah. It's just cluttering up my (tiny) flat at the moment.

ALso, Interwebs dude...PM me your address, fool! :p

Also got (I think, depends which sprue it is) the bits for the bad arse Dragon riding Vampire.

[MAVV]

You could easily use Bretonnian knights (or Empire for that matter) as Blood Knights. A few simple conversions and a darkish paintjob and you are good to go. $99 for five models is a bit too steep @__@ but BK +blender vamp lord = one dead enemy army.

[ElectricPaladin]

Nah. It's just cluttering up my (tiny) flat at the moment.

ALso, Interwebs dude...PM me your address, fool! :p

Also got (I think, depends which sprue it is) the bits for the bad arse Dragon riding Vampire.

I was all set to respond that there's nothing so terrifying about putting your address on the Internet, but then my wife told me all about the (unlikely but) horrible and (more likely and) really annoying things that could result from this choice, so I'll be more circumspect in the future.

Has anyone got a recommendation for the killy unit? I feel like I have so many options in the Vampire Counts army book... it's hard to decide. At the moment, I'm most torn between hexenwraiths (gorgeously weird models, great rules - at least as far as I can tell), black knights (basic bad-*** cavalry, and my mounted necromancette can ride with them), and black knights converted into blood knights (because there's no way in hell I'm paying $100 for five cavalry models).

Fortunately, with the gift of the dragon-rider, I don't have to buy a vampire on foot anymore. It might take a little conversion to straighten out his legs and set him up to walk around, rather than ride, but that doesn't seem too daunting. More money for units!

[Wildeybeast]

I was all set to respond that there's nothing so terrifying about putting your address on the Internet, but then my wife told me all about the (unlikely but) horrible and (more likely and) really annoying things that could result from this choice, so I'll be more circumspect in the future.


I assume the worst of those was your students finding out where you live?

[ElectricPaladin]

I assume the worst of those was your students finding out where you live?

Nah, they know that already.

The worst was an elaborate scheme involving some crook making a dossier of me and waiting till I say something like "out of town - no painting this weekend :(" and then coming to rob my house.

The most likely - but still annoying - was Internet crawlers finding my address and sending me junk mail.

[ElectricPaladin]

I just got another lot off eBay! This brings my collection to:

* Vamp on Dragon/Horse (Magnets!)
* Vamp on Foot
* Necromancer on Horse
* Necromancer on Foot x2
* Wight King on Foot
* Caern Wraith
* Banshee
* 20 Skeletons w/Spears + Full Command
* 19 Skeletons w/Hand Weapons + Full Command
* 53 Zombies
* 7 Dire Wolves w/Doom Wolf
* 2 Spirit Host bases

I will also be presently getting a strigoi ghoul king and vampire lord to be converted, both of which will be on foot, from Mr.Mystery. My last purchase will be a box of Hexwraiths/Black Knights, which I have been informed I can actually build as both with the addition of an extra set of horses, which I can get on eBay for another $20.

The last bits purchase I'm considering is the spears or hand weapons to combine the skeletons into a single 39-strong mob. Anyone got any advice on which way to go. Hand weapons for the parry save or spears to fight in three ranks (four when I get enough to horde them)?

[Learn2Eel]

Would you eschew ghouls? Last time I posted about this, I was pointed to ghouls as my go-to infantry unit. Skeletons because they're cheap, good anvils, and can easily grow to unlimited size with a minor upgrade, and ghouls because they can actually hit back. My impression of zombies is that they are cheap - which is good - and I should own a box or two because you never know when my wizard might cast that "up comes a unit of zombies" spell, but they aren't a great main infantry unit.



How are hexenwraiths? I love the models and the combination of the Ethereal rule and the ability to ride straight through enemy units and deal damage to them is entertaining.

Any and all of the others are great, too. None of them are off the table (except possibly the blood knights, if only because of the cost) - do you have a favorite?



So I do want those wolves I passed on by not buying the battalion box straight off... hm... perhaps I should just see if I can get a battalion super cheap somewhere? That would leave me without the aforementioned "killy" unit, but I'd have even more skeletons and some ghouls and some wolves.

Ghouls work well in one large unit to eat up a lot of Core points and thus save money. Realistically, I think most Vampire players would want to fill their entire Core with just Zombies/Skeletons and Dire Wolves, but the money cost is just insanely high. At 2000 point game limits, having two units of Wolves as redirectors leads to you needing 140 Zombies, for example! Ghouls have Toughness 4 and Weapon Skill 3 and thus most enemy Core will be hitting them on 4s, or worse if Fear works, and most enemies will also wound them on 5s. That they have two attacks each and Poisoned is also very nice.

As for the debate between Zombies and Skeletons, Skeletons are the better value Core choice, but that is before factoring in regrowing dead models - which is key to an Undead army. Zombies raise unbelievably quickly and aren't THAT much worse in combat than Skeletons, and they are also quite a bit cheaper per model. Zombies end up being the far better anvil/tarpit unit than Skeletons for these reasons. That isn't to say Skeletons are bad though, you will just get more mileage out of Zombies if you use them the way Zombies and Skeletons are supposed to be used.

Hexwraiths are very nice indeed, particularly in small units of 5 run in multiples. They pretty much require your opponent to waste a magic missile on them, as otherwise they will eat up your opponents' chaff and heavy cavalry. When you also chuck in the fact that they are fast cavalry and thus get unlimited reforms, the tricks you can pull with them are pretty crazy! They do eat up points fairly quickly though, so be careful of where you use them and make sure they don't take points away from your characters and their escort.

My favourite killy unit by far are the Terrorgheists. They are point-for-point one of the best monsters in the game, easily. After playing over a dozen games with my Vampire Counts, there has not been a single game where they have let me down, and the experience is very much shared by other Vampire players I've talked with or read about. They aren't great in combat, but they will still mulch through light infantry blocks, and will tear apart elite units - from Skullcrushers and Chaos Knights to Blood Knights and anything you can think of - monsters of all kinds, chaff (they work really well for clearing enemy chaff in the early turns), those nasty unkillable Warriors of Chaos Daemon Princes, etc. There's literally nothing a pair of Terrorgheists can't handle. When you throw in that they are flying and are T6 W6 they become really crazy for the cost. They are by far the best killy unit for Vampire Counts outside of Blender Vampire Lords.

Black Knights I've found aren't really a "killy" unit, aside from dealing a few wounds here or there their main job is to act as a bodyguard for your mounted Vampire characters - which also happens to be one of the top builds going around. It is really funny when they get Killing Blow on enemy characters though. Blood Knights are really crazy both on the charge and off the charge, but their biggest issue - aside from cost in both points and money - is that you can only ever raise one guy back at a time. If you send a Blood Knight deathstar against an enemy and they flank it with two Terrorgheists, even with LD10 from a Vampire Lord the unit will pretty much disappear in one turn with no chance of ever getting it back. Vargheists are awesome at chaff hunting, war-machine hunting and wizard killing. They also work very well in the flanks, but as with pretty much all Undead armies, be very careful which units you multi-charge with. Any unit that is in the same combat as friendly Zombies is going to die off incredibly quickly!

Crypt Horrors are unbelievable with the right support. Keep your wizards near them with Invocation of Nehek - nothing else is required - and watch them tie up any unit in the game. ANY unit. Like Skeletons or anything else, despite being T5 W3 monstrous infantry, they get rezzed 1+wizard level in models at a time. Yeah. So an Invocation from a Level 1 Necromancer who is dirt cheap immediately rezzes two entire Crypt Horrors, and then can restore a wound to a wounded Crypt Horror. Ridiculous, ridiculous anvil unit. They are simply amazing for the points if you keep rezzing them. Varghulfs suffer the issue of being a monster that wants to be in the flanks, but as with most Undead, can't afford to multi-charge with most other units. They require finesse, but are extremely fast. Not as all-round good as a Terrorgheist, but still very decent if you maneuvre them well.

Grave Guard are a bit of a cookie. You want to run them in big units of 40+, but the models are so darn expensive for such a big unit. Give them all great weapons ideally, give the standard due Banner of the Barrows, and watch the carnage. One of the few units that doesn't out and out require character support on their own. However, throw in a foot Blender Vampire Lord there and the unit will mow down almost anything. Sadly, they aren't quite as good as the Tomb King equivalent from what I can tell (who all get Weapon Skill 6, maybe Frenzy and Hatred from the right characters).

Battalions are awesome! Yes, yes. Buying two of them, for example, gives you the optimum number of Skeletons, Ghouls and Zombies for a single unit of each (40, or 30+ in the case of Ghouls). Plus, four units of five Dire Wolves gives you all the chaff you will ever need.

[Learn2Eel]

I just got another lot off eBay! This brings my collection to:

* Vamp on Dragon/Horse (Magnets!)
* Vamp on Foot
* Necromancer on Horse
* Necromancer on Foot x2
* Wight King on Foot
* Caern Wraith
* Banshee
* 20 Skeletons w/Spears + Full Command
* 19 Skeletons w/Hand Weapons + Full Command
* 53 Zombies
* 7 Dire Wolves w/Doom Wolf
* 2 Spirit Host bases

I will also be presently getting a strigoi ghoul king and vampire lord to be converted, both of which will be on foot, from Mr.Mystery. My last purchase will be a box of Hexwraiths/Black Knights, which I have been informed I can actually build as both with the addition of an extra set of horses, which I can get on eBay for another $20.

The last bits purchase I'm considering is the spears or hand weapons to combine the skeletons into a single 39-strong mob. Anyone got any advice on which way to go. Hand weapons for the parry save or spears to fight in three ranks (four when I get enough to horde them)?

That's starting to look like a decent collection! Certainly your Core collection is getting there.
Yes, you are correct with the Hexwraiths and Black Knights; the bits are entirely distinct from one another aside from the horses.

With Skeletons and Zombies, my personal recommendation is to never run them in a horde. The reason for this is that you want to minimize the attacks you are taking, as both units bleed combat resolution like crazy. They also don't do nearly enough damage to warrant being run in a horde, even with spears in the case of Skeletons. In pretty much every situation, taking hand weapons is far better for Skeletons than taking spears.
Always take the units five-wide and run them as deep as you can, preferably run units of five wide and at least eight deep (so units of 40+). Skeletons and Zombies are tarpits first and foremost, and that is really all they are good for. Mind you, they are amazing tarpits if you keep a Necromancer nearby.

So basically, yes, give the Skeletons hand weapons if you can :)

[Mr Mystery]

Whereas I disagree....

Skellies work nicely in a Horde formation, and should be given spears.

Thoughout the course of the game, the extra attacks granted by spears will pay greater dividends than the 6+ Parry will.

Skellingtons need to be in Horde formation to really hold on in there. They're pretty pants in a fight, and can crumble shockingly quickly, so big units is the way to go.

But hey, welcome to the world of Warhammer, where two people will give you completely conflicting opinions on one unit, but neither referring to net wisdom!

[Learn2Eel]

Whereas I disagree....

Skellies work nicely in a Horde formation, and should be given spears.

Thoughout the course of the game, the extra attacks granted by spears will pay greater dividends than the 6+ Parry will.

Skellingtons need to be in Horde formation to really hold on in there. They're pretty pants in a fight, and can crumble shockingly quickly, so big units is the way to go.

But hey, welcome to the world of Warhammer, where two people will give you completely conflicting opinions on one unit, but neither referring to net wisdom!

Being entirely honest here....Skeletons are generally run with shields in five-wide formation. Both net wisdom and countless games of experience from hundreds of players do say that shields and five-wide are better.
In the end, a tarpit unit needs to take as much durability as it can get, and Skeletons are a tarpit unit.
But yes, your point still stands :)

[Lord-Boofhead]

Do you have a mate who plays Empire or wants to play empire? If so Buy Sigmar's Blood..

[Lord-Boofhead]

Both net wisdom and countless games of experience from hundreds of players do say that shields and five-wide are better.


As someone who writes articals about Warhammer Tactics on the internet can you really quote 'net wisdom'?

[Baneblade]

Zombies are a fantastic unit to have from the start. Big units in the bus formation. Min of 40, but 50 or 60 is better. The ease of raising more to the unit is great for tarpits, but remember they will die in droves, so I would have at least 2 wizards with invocation to ensure it is cast. Raising new zombie units are great to throw behind the enemy lines, but the units always start way too small to be good. Once they get a couple invocations they will be ready.

Grave Guard are great. I recommend great weapons to maximize their killyness along with the Banner of Barrows. Throw in a blender vamp, and then small units become effective. I ran a 20 man unit with the vamp and they will hold their own, and keep coming back for more. 7x3 worked fine for me, although the internet loves their hoards. Personally I was never a fan since they become really unwieldy and can shrink the number of units hit by the invocation. Also keep a couple corpse carts near by to ensure a bad roll does not leave your unit unfulfilled in their raisings.

Hexwraiths are great. Not for their damage output, but for their ability to cause disarray. Ethereal units tend to have opponents overreact to them and drawing precious resources to deal with them. While attempting to kill them leaves your real killer units primed and ready to go with little invocation maintenance. Also they make great war machine hunters. Never get them into combat unless they are supporting a killy unit. While they may not be hurt directly, they cannot deal enough damage to overcome rank and banner bonuses. You need to do four wounds on the charge in the flank to overcome the rank bonus of three, banner, and the musician tiebreaker. Also terror can be a liability if they force the flee and they fail to catch the unit.

[Learn2Eel]

As someone who writes articals about Warhammer Tactics on the internet can you really quote 'net wisdom'?

Mr Mystery stated their neither of our opinions were "net wisdom", and I stated that, basically, "net wisdom" actually does say to run Skeletons five wide with hand weapons and shields, I basically said it as a bit of a "poking fun" comment. If you read Mystery's comment you would see what I mean. I don't have to look online to see how Skeletons should probably be run. It just so happens that the way I think they should be run is the generally accepted way to use them. I then further validated Mystery's post to say that his point still stood though. Context is everything mate.