Rules Conundrum - Terrify and Flying Monstrous Creatures

[tierdar]

A bit of a rules conundrum with the Terrify Psychic power and flying monstrous creatures.

Scenario: A Flying Hive Tyrant in Swoop mode has moved directly up the middle of the table towards an Eldar player. The Eldar player brings a Hemlock Wraithfighter onto the board and casts its Terrify power on the tyrant.

Assuming each step goes poorly for the Tyrant:

1. The fighter has to take a psychic power check as normal
2. The Tyrant gets a Deny the Witch roll
3. The Tyrant loses fearless and must make an immediate Morale check
4. If it passes (and the Wraithfighter is within 12"), it must re-roll the check.

now it gets interesting...

A FMC in swoop mode can only make a 90 degree turn at the beginning of its movement, similar to a flyer. It can choose to move as jump infantry as well... What happens next?

Does it fall back 3d6 like a jump MC?
If so, is it now "on the ground"
If so, does it take a grounding check?

If it remains in swoop mode, does it fall back towards its board edge?
If so, does it get to ignore the 90 degree turning restrictions?
How far does it move? 2d6? 3d6?

What happens if it goes off the board edge?
Swooping flyers go into ongoing reserves, which directly contradicts the rule that units forced to fall back through failed morale are destroyed.

Discuss.

[jifel]

I'd say it falls back 3d6 RAW. It moves like jump infantry, and being a FMC only affects its movement/hard to hit, it never modifies its Fall back move. Also, the 90 degree limit only matters in its movement phase, not fall backs. But, that doesn't require changing its facing. So, it falls back 3d6 backwards in whatever facing the Nid player chooses and isn't grounded. But, just note that the Fighter can't cast Teriffy the turn it comes in.

[tierdar]

In reading through this more, pg 49 says "...it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications"
It must move at least 12 and up to 24
"A FMC that is swooping can make a single pivot on the spot up to 90 degrees. Thereafter it must move directly forward in a straight line."

So, I think the right answer would be that the FMC would make an immediate pivot up to 90 degrees towards its board edge. Then it would fall back 3d6 directly forward and end its movement in that facing.

[tierdar]

Duplicate post

[Tynskel]

If I recall correctly, Flyers/FMC are unaffected by area effect powers/abilities unless they are in hover mode or the equivalent.

hmmm... I am not quite right. I would need the rulebook, but I don't have my rulebook for another month.

[FTGT]

Might require a close read, but my understanding/guess would be that the Flyrant falls back and becomes Jump MC, therefore is grounded. He would not have to take a grounding check since it wasn't a shooting attack.

That said, there's a flaw in that theory in that the Hemlock can't cast a Malediction the turn it arrives. Maledictions and Blessings are cast before the unit/model moves, so arriving from reserves prevents the caster from using those powers that turn.

But, should the flyrant fly up to it when it's already on the board and somehow doesn't take it out, then the following turn that scenario could take place. My expectation would be that it would fall back, become gliding, and should it somehow still fall back to the board edge, would count as fleeing off the board edge since it's not swooping and therefore can't leave combat airspace.

[Alex Aggro]

I'd say that the FMC falls back exactly like jump infantry would and, until it auto-rallies in the following movement phase, counts as gliding instead of swooping for shooting purposes. As there is no restriction on the facing of jump infantry, I would rule that the FMC is free to be placed facing any direction at the end of this fall back move. I would say that, since it was not technically hit by anything, it does not have to take a grounding check.

[eversor21]

maybe it's just me, but i wouldn't let it hit the monsterous creature at all since terrify is just a malediction psychic power. i would say you can't effect the flying monsterous creature.. faq from gw

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and.

[eversor21]

terrify is a malediction that has auto hit built into it (pg68). since GW has ruled that autohit items can't hit flyers or flying monsterous creatures i would say it can't effect them.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

[DarkLink]

Maledictions don't need to roll to hit, though. That's witchfire and shooting attacks.

[tierdar]

terrify is a malediction that has auto hit built into it (pg68). since GW has ruled that autohit items can't hit flyers or flying monsterous creatures i would say it can't effect them.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Then wouldn't that mean that FMCs couldn't be targeted by their own blessings as well?

[DarkLink]

Right. Novas and beams and the like are all witchfires. That faq does not apply to maledictions or blessings.

[Tynskel]

I thought someone checked the chart in the back of the book and it states that Fall Back moves are Not Applicable to Swooping Monsterous Creatures...

[Nabterayl]

I thought someone checked the chart in the back of the book and it states that Fall Back moves are Not Applicable to Swooping Monsterous Creatures...
Nowhere that I can find.

I also am inclined to say that Terrify can hit a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, for the reasons that DarkLink proposed: it isn't an attack. Recall that Imotekh's "Lord of the Storm" effect can hit a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and that has a Strength, an AP, causes Wounds, and everything - it's much closer to an attack (even though it isn't one) than Terrify. If Lord of the Storm can hit a SFMC, I don't see why Terrify couldn't.

As for what it would do ... I still haven't decided what I think is the best argument for that.

[Tynskel]

I think they said something like p.425. My Rulebook is in a box 1000 miles away... can't exactly look it up right now...

[daboarder]

It does indeed state that they don't fall back at the bottom of 425.

Guess that solves that problem

[Tynskel]

It does indeed state that they don't fall back at the bottom of 425.

Guess that solves that problem

But, but buttt butt butts I like big butts, err, uhm, that would be the end of a rules fight...

[daboarder]

I'm waiting for someone to argue the summary rules don't count, because you just know someones going to try that.

[Tynskel]

someone already has on the main headline post:
"Muninwing Tynskel • 29 minutes ago −
Then prove it. Where is the rule to back it up?

Everything in the reference section is compiled from entries in the main book. So either there is a reason somewhere -- and it's nowhere on the page listed in the chart -- that justifies that entry, or it is an error.

If results cannot be reproduced, they are irrelevant. So don't condescend unless you can back up your answer."

[Tynskel]

It really is a BS argument. That's like saying because a rule is only written once, it is of no consequence.

[Tynskel]

Oh man, this guy is still going on about how because it is in a chart it still doesn't count...

[40kGamer]

Oh man, this guy is still going on about how because it is in a chart it still doesn't count...

Entertainment value +1. :D

[tierdar]

Although, this could also be interpreted that it doesn't fall back as a Swooping FMC, but rather as a Jump FMC.

[daboarder]

That would be lile trying to argue vehicles turn into infantry and run away. Bout the same ammount of support in the rules.

No its pretty clear that swooping FMCs are constrained by a specific means of displacement and are not able to be displaced beyong those mean

[Tynskel]

I am not sure how you can interpret it that way. Not Applicable means exactly that: cannot apply fall back to Swooping FMC.

[tierdar]

Not sure that I do interpret it that way, it's actually a very confusing rules scenario; which is why I brought it up in the first place.

If you combine that chart "NA" with the rules for FMC, you might read that as It moves as Jump MC with the following exceptions and clarifications...

Which could possibly mean "NA" as a swooping MC, because it moves as a Jump MC when falling back.

And as both interpretations are 100% accurate according to the rules, it's still a weird situation.

[tierdar]

I am not sure how you can interpret it that way. Not Applicable means exactly that: cannot apply fall back to Swooping FMC.

And I would disagree with this statement just a tad. It might mean Cannot apply fall back to Swooping FMC. It could also mean "Does not apply, because another scenario applies."

[daboarder]

Aren't psychic powers only ever in the reference section tynskel? Ask him how he plays with those if they dont count

[Nabterayl]

I think the non-stupid analogy is to look at it like an entry in a table of context that doesn't correspond to a chapter.

If I write a book that says in the table of contents, "Chapter 3: Nurglings are Ruining the Game" but there actually is no chapter 3 in the book, does my book claim that nurglings are ruining the game? Only sort of - yes, those words are literally between the covers of my book, but they're included in such a way that there might be more to the story.

I think that's a valid critique to make of situations like this where the summary tables say things that aren't found anywhere else. The problem is that we aren't trying to decide what the rulebook says on the topic of SFMCs falling back (or we shouldn't be). If that were our question, it would be totally fair to say, "Well ... frankly, the rulebook says little enough that it's not 100% clear what it's saying."

But what we're actually trying to decide (or we should be) is which of our available options is most faithful to the text of the rules when we need to decide what happens when an SFMC is called upon to fall back. The "n/a" in the summary tables may not be 100% clear, but it's clearer than anything else in the text. Saying, "The SFMC doesn't fall back, because page 425 says n/a" is the best option in light of the text. Maybe not the only possible option. Merely the best.

[Lord Krungharr]

Swooping MCs can not change their movement mode, nor can they change their facing, outside of the Movement Phase. Terrify does not say that it will change any unit's Movement mode.

N/A means whilst Swooping, the FMC cannot Fall Back, period (unless FAQd, but doubtful). He may lose any benefit from Fearless if Terrified, meaning if the Flyrant changes to Glide mode in its turn after being Terrified and assaults a Daemon, it might fail a Fear test (assuming a Flyrant is Fearless, I don't play Nids). If the Flyrant is already in Glide mode when Terrified, it would then be possible for it to Fall Back 3D6" as per the Jump mode, which Glide mode counts as.

If there is some sort of effect an enemy had that could Ground a Swooping MC at the beginning of a Movement Phase, then they could Terrify it to maybe Fall Back. Don't know if there's anything that could do that off hand.

That chart is in the rulebook and clearly part of the ruleset, as are all the other charts and info on those rear pages, and they are an easy way to discern many rules at a glance. Just because rules are ordered in a chart does not mean they are not rules. If a contract had a mathematical formula of paying out royalties for some licensing of a product, it would be no less valid (and in fact it would be much less arguable) than if it were in pure word form. This is why lawyers hate using formulas and charts in contracts, as they won't get paid as much since there would be less arguing. It's true! I asked both of my lawyer friends :)

[Tynskel]

this makes sense. +1 Internets.