Non-GW Vehicles

[Mystery.Shadow]

Every Ork Player comes up with his/her own creation(s) for Ork Vehicles. Many of them are great! And I believe that G.W. should loosen their tight grip allowing Ork Players to use their artistic license.

But what if this becomes abuse?

Let's say an Ork Player creates a HUGE Battlewagon and puts a MekBoy with Kustom Force Field in it? The vehicle is SO BIG that the Kustom Force Field's 6" Range can cover his/her entire army!?

And then, another Ork Vehicle is SO SMALL that line-of-sight is nearly impossible to draw to it.

[slxiii]

Every Ork Player comes up with his/her own creation(s) for Ork Vehicles. Many of them are great! And I believe that G.W. should loosen their tight grip allowing Ork Players to use their artistic license.

But what if this becomes abuse?

Let's say an Ork Player creates a HUGE Battlewagon and puts a MekBoy with Kustom Force Field in it? The vehicle is SO BIG that the Kustom Force Field's 6" Range can cover his/her entire army!?

And then, another Ork Vehicle is SO SMALL that line-of-sight is nearly impossible to draw to it.

a guy had one at our local tournament that wouldn't fit into his DZ lengthwise. Of course, he decided it was in the spirit of the rules to allow it to hang 6 inches over the DZ edge and tank shock on the first turn.

[Lerra]

It's pretty easy to limit it to models roughly the same size and shape. Even 100% GW conversions should stay roughly the same size and shape for gameplay.

[exoduster18]

It's my understanding that the conversion in question must (in the "spirit of the rules") fit easily within roughly the same measurements/footprint of the model that it is trying to portray.

So, it must be reasonably sized (close to the original model that is converted or the model that the conversion is to represent) and no using other pieces that overhang and then trying to count that piece as the hull or body of the vehicle.

[Cryl]

That's pretty much the spirit of "counts as" or conversion work in general. As long as it's roughly the right size, shape and carries the spirit of the original then it should be ok.

[BuFFo]

And I believe that G.W. should loosen their tight grip allowing Ork Players to use their artistic license.

Wha...????

What tight grip are you talking about?

You do know that 40k is a modeling hobby right? Where on Earth does GW tell you to only use their models when playing 40k? You must be a newer generation of gamer, probably post 3rd edition.

You should see my Squiggoth. Its a TMNT Dinosaur with plasticard platform on its back.

Or, you should go to the Indy Necronomicon, a 3 day event like any other GT, which is supported by GW. It actualyl was part of the GT scene for one year I believe. You can bring whatever models you want from any toy line as long as its not confusing to your opponents.

So yes, even at a large convention for 40k where GW comes and gives massive massive massive prize support, you can bring your converted Mageknight 'space wolves' and compete.

As far as abusing the game, well, if someone shows up with a vehicle that is clearly made to abuse the rules without a shadow of a doubt, um.... don't play that person? :confused:

If anyone showed up to play me with those examples you gave, I would not play them. Sometimes a friend of mine tries to pass an old school 2nd ed demon model, regular sized base, as his demon prince. Other players let him, but I tell him Hell No! You ain't using a marine seized model so you can hide behind tree trunks when your prince is supposed to be gigantic!

[Gotthammer]

I think he means that GW don't allow non-GW stuff in their stores.

[Rapture]

You do know that 40k is a modeling hobby right? Where on Earth does GW tell you to only use their models when playing 40k? You must be a newer generation of gamer, probably post 3rd edition.


Always nice to see a little bit of veteran elitism show its ugly head.

[DarkLink]

You should see the Stompa's and battlewagons one of our ork players uses. They're pretty cool, and probably no GW parts involved.

So long as they're the right size and shape (or close enough), and it is easy to tell what exactly they are, you can get aways with pretty much any conversion you want, with the possible exception of major GW sponsored tournaments.

[the one]

My friend has about 9 squiggoths, all converted from plastic toy dinosaurs with rhinos and a land raider stuck to their backs.

[person person]

That's pretty much the spirit of "counts as" or conversion work in general. As long as it's roughly the right size, shape and carries the spirit of the original then it should be ok.

Agreed. My local GW only lets you use GW models though.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

You should point out to them the Counts As bit in their own rulebook, then.

I generally dislike ork conversions, usually, because ork players are either really great conversion artists or they are some dude with a toy from the dollar store bargain bin and some random junk glued to it.

[person person]

I've never seen that.

Most of the conversion I've seen are taking a non ork vehicle from past armies and make it useful again or actual conversions for the fun of it.

[Cryl]

The random toy from the bargain bin with some 40k bits glued onto it can be the worst end of the ork conversion spectrum but I've actually seen it done pretty well too, someone used some smaller scale WW2 tanks and made them into warbuggies, looked pretty good.

[Jackmojo]

So long as they're the right size and shape (or close enough)

Its this wiggle room that causes folks consternation (on both sides).

Personally I'm ok gaming with anything, even things that fall in the so called "modeled for advantage" group, because I'm not inclined to be a jerk about not letting someone play with there toy soldiers because of some minor perceived advantage (as I am of the firm belief that the 40k ruleset is not so finely tuned that such minor advantages/changes are going to break 'game balance', such as it is).

I've made some Leman Russ stand ins for my IG that are modeled to reflect a more modern low slung tank design (in keeping with the general high tech/sci fi look of my army) rather then the tall Sherman-esque look of the official model, and I have yet to receive anything but praise for making my own, but I have little trouble imagining some folks taking umbrage at the fact that they can receive cover from shorter barricades and the like. Fortunately my response is simple: Piss off! I'll game with someone with less hang ups.

Jack

[BuFFo]

I think he means that GW don't allow non-GW stuff in their stores.

Well, if is is, then, then the answer will be most likely no I think. I don't know really, I stopped going to GW stores when back in 2001 I was told at the 8th street GW store in NYC that I wasn't allowed to use Armor/Epiccast tyranids in the store.

Perhaps his GW is different, or maybe times have changed for the better?


Always nice to see a little bit of veteran elitism show its ugly head.

Or maybe you don't like the truth?

Fact is, newer players don't normally understand what the hobby is about, and I can't tell you the amount of time new players ask me in my local store "Is it okay if I stick a melta gun on an Ork and call it such-and-such gun?" So forget about non GW model conversions, they seem to be bullied by the online 'tounrey' hardcore scene, and figure inter GW model conversions are bad.

Older players don't seem to give a poop. They just come in with their converted figures and armies, and just play.

Maybe its different where you game, I don't know.

...

If I came off as an Elitest, thank you :) I would like to thank the Academy and all the little people out there for their support! (that was all sarcastic right there by the way...)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Buffo, you ARE an elitist, for what it is worth. Heh.

Here in Boston the only age-related stereotype I've seen is that guys who've been playing for years are actually usually the nicest players.

There is no correlation in any other way.

For what it is worth, I myself came in under 4th edition's beginnings, and was attracted mostly BY the hobby aspects. I avoid other models for two reasons: GW's are the best (I have not ever seen anything even close to, say, the new Space Wolves kit, done by any other company), and I like to buy only GW products to support the game I love. That being said, I don't find it unreasonable at all that you may not be allowed to use custom stuff at a GW store -- if some kid comes in and wants to go buy a whole boatload of AT43 sets to use for his guard army because he saw someone else doing it at the GW store, that's the same thing as walking into a restaurant with a bag of food from another restaurant. In many cases you would be asked to leave just the same, but when it comes to this, we must apparently villify GW to save face and act like this request is unreasonable and pointlessly driven by their desire to be corporate d-bags and ruin our fun.

I don't understand how people can denounce Games Workshop for using "counts as" as a sloppy cover to bad rules and then in the same breath talk about how the game is all about the hobby and the younger generation of players -- coming into a game where conversion and customization is preached right in the rulebook -- clearly have no idea.

I recommend in the future that less blanket statements be applied to the entire breadth and scope of Warhammer 40,000. Not to say that you are necessarily stereotyping...but this game spans the world and 20 years or so. We can't possibly assume in any way a behavioral pattern that would apply across all of the walks of life this game has touched upon, and to do so is generally foolish.

[Melissia]

Agreed, he is an elitist clown.


It's a bit of a balancing act. As long as the model isn't abusive, I dno't really care-- usually players try and create models that are of similar size to the GW models, if not actually similar shape.


I was interested entirely in the lore back in late second edition, and finally got my own army in third edition. But the lore has always been what I loved the most. I don't mind the modeling aspect, but I hate painting, and the two go rather hand in hand most of the time. Still, I greatly enjoy kustom-built Orky vehicles. Most of what I concern myself with is the lore, and great orky vehicles are part of that lore.

[Mystery.Shadow]

One time, TWELVE of us entered an Outback Steakhouse. ELEVEN of us were ready to order from the Menu. ONE of us had a bag of food from Chic-Fil-A. Why? Because he didn't like Steak.

We were informed that "outside food" was not permitted.

WHAT?!

Ok, we all left. And what did that cost Outback?? ELEVEN dinners. -I'm sure the Owner/Manager would have seen differently. But it was too late. We had already decided to leave due to that ignorant fool of a Waitor.

Is Games-Workshop that foolish or stupid as well??

[Lerra]

I do think it's bad for business to bar a player because of a few non-GW models. The rule that 75% of your models must be 100% GW seems fair, especially when there are holes in the miniatures line. Expecting all models to be GW is a bit much, imo. There are rules for models that GW doesn't make yet, so why should a player be penalized for failing to buy a non-existent model?

I only buy models from stores that I play in, and I'm sure others do the same. Thankfully, there are plenty of good stores around here, so if a store won't allow me to field my army, I am able to take my business elsewhere.

[archimbald]

i try not to buy non GW stuff cos 1/2 the time it looks crap. tho normally i cant stand a orkift, ied landraider/devilfish/rhino. tho the one i did like was an orkified dreadnaught, but a kid was using it as something so.....

[lobster-overlord]

One time, TWELVE of us entered an Outback Steakhouse. ELEVEN of us were ready to order from the Menu. ONE of us had a bag of food from Chic-Fil-A. Why? Because he didn't like Steak.

We were informed that "outside food" was not permitted.


This is why they go to the effort to offer pork chops and chicken dishes on their menu, to satisfy those who don't want to eat steak. Honestly, I don't see a problem with them asking you to leave. Or at least refrain from having that food in their resturant

Same with GW. It's their product, and they want to show case it in their stores.

John M.

[Lerra]

I've got a friend with some severe dietary restrictions, and she'll call ahead of time to ask if it's okay if she brings her own sandwich to eat while the rest of the group orders food. 95% of restaurants are fine with it. I think if you call in advance they are more likely to let you bring in outside food.

There was one time, though, where she didn't bring any food (and so hadn't called ahead), but she came to the restaurant with our large group to chat. She didn't order anything, and the waiter wouldn't let her stay in the restaurant without buying anything! So we all left. They tried to charge us because we had already ordered our food, but we weren't going to stick around when they were kicking one of our party out! It's not like we were going to let her stand out in the cold while the rest of us ate (we had carpooled).

Sorry for the rant, I just get annoyed when business are so intent on making money that they end up alienating their customers and losing money in the long run.

[Rapture]

One time, TWELVE of us entered an Outback Steakhouse. ELEVEN of us were ready to order from the Menu. ONE of us had a bag of food from Chic-Fil-A. Why? Because he didn't like Steak.

We were informed that "outside food" was not permitted.

WHAT?!

Ok, we all left. And what did that cost Outback?? ELEVEN dinners. -I'm sure the Owner/Manager would have seen differently. But it was too late. We had already decided to leave due to that ignorant fool of a Waitor.

Is Games-Workshop that foolish or stupid as well??

You are wrong. You go to a restaurant to BUY food not to hang out with some food that you bought.

I guess you are upset because it was only one of you who had outside food. What if it was two of you? How about three? How about ten out of twelve?

A restaurant is a business and so is GW. They want people to use their products. No one in their right mind should expect otherwise.

[Lord Azaghul]

You are wrong. You go to a restaurant to BUY food not to hang out with some food that you bought.

I guess you are upset because it was only one of you who had outside food. What if it was two of you? How about three? How about ten out of twelve?

A restaurant is a business and so is GW. They want people to use their products. No one in their right mind should expect otherwise.

Completely disagree here. Business should do everything within reason so insure that their customers either enjoy themselves, or enjoy the product.
Look at starbucks coffee. They certainly aren't going to kick you out of only half the party orders coffee. The place is designed to be a 'hang out' AND so are resturants - the atmosphere is very importaint. A good restaurnt will leave you wanting to return for both the food and the atmosphere - any good business person knows that repeat customers are where the money is at. A business stupid enough to kick you out because you're not buying today is run by a fool.


Edit:
OT: I'm not really bothered 'by most counts as' I think gw charges far to much for their products, and I do my best to buy 'smaller' purchases from my store, but if I'm planning on dropping more then 40$ I'm going to hunt online for cheaper prices. So any one buy a mechwarrior modeling kit and buildinga a titan out of...good for you you didn't spend 750$ at forgeworld you bought a 50$ model at the hobby store!

[Rapture]

Completely disagree here. Business should do everything within reason so insure that their customers either enjoy themselves, or enjoy the product.
Look at starbucks coffee. They certainly aren't going to kick you out of only half the party orders coffee. The place is designed to be a 'hang out' AND so are resturants - the atmosphere is very importaint. A good restaurnt will leave you wanting to return for both the food and the atmosphere - any good business person knows that repeat customers are where the money is at. A business stupid enough to kick you out because you're not buying today is run by a fool.

Not to break into a discussion but Starbucks and an Outback are two very different business. Of course a business that go out of their shower customers with affection always seem great, but they pay for it. I work at a restaurant and know that every customers order is not equal. Sure the guy who orders one bowl of soup and a glass of water still puts money into the business but the couple who orders a bottle of wine and two entrees is literally worth about ten of those soup men.

It is the same for GW. Sure it is nice to have a customer who buys a leman russ but then plays with his AT-34 miniatures but that customer is taking up space that a customer who paid $2,000 for his Tyranid army could be using. Businesses are not public areas and, opposed to what many people seem to think, they are not there to make you happy. Businesses are there to make money.

[lobster-overlord]

I've got a friend with some severe dietary restrictions, and she'll call ahead of time to ask if it's okay if she brings her own sandwich to eat while the rest of the group orders food. 95% of restaurants are fine with it.


Can you imagine a "dietary restriction" in terms of GW? This is a funny thought for me. Granted, I understand this in terms of food, as my niece is not only a diabetic, but deals with ciliac, wheat gluten, lactose and all sorts of alergies. I'm just trying to think of a funny/ingenious way to find a legit way to justify. I can't.

John M>

[Lord Azaghul]

. Businesses are there to make money.


I will never disagree on that point. Every employee of every company should always consider that when they thing abotu 'loyalties'.!

Anyway.

I honestly think gw does a decent job (except for the constant/unjustified price increases every 6 months). I've never been to a store were they ask you to leave because you're playings 'counts as' or proxing.
In find the only time I've ever seem people asked to leave is when they are cheating!

[BuFFo]

Buffo, you ARE an elitist, for what it is worth. Heh.

Thanks! My elitism is due to making sure the hobby is a fun and productive one where hobbyists have choices and can enjoy their toy models in a friendly setting, and not a restricted one forced by egos and ignorance plagued by internet bullies.

I don't see any appeal at supporting or even going to a GW store. Such corporate crap. Find a local hobby store and support them by gaming there. I bet they may even have couches for you to lounge on for hours, and they won't normally care if your Space Yifs are GW models or not.

If the only place for you to game is a GW store... You have my pity.