Superheavies in Normal 40K - Would You Use Them?

[Bigred]

A simple question.

The latest rumors swirling around say superheavies (and gargantuan creatures) are going to be added to main game.

Now I'm sure there will be restrictions of some type.

For example in the Horus Heresy books superheavies work as follows in "normal" games:


1 "Lords of War" FOC slot per detachment.
Lords of war cannot exceed 25% of your point total.
Lords of war always count as secondary objectives and give up 2VP to the opponent if they are killed.

So the question is would you field them, and how would you do it?

[Seerkarandras]

I would be all for it honestly. It would mean I would get some occasional use out of my super heavies without having to plan an Apoc game. You cant really do a pick up game of Apoc.

[Popsical]

Damage tables for supers must be included.
Maybe:
1-2 one weapon cannot shoot next turn
3-4 one weapon destroyed chosen by owner
5 minus 3" movement
6 d3 hull points and roll again with no ap mods.

Simple but fairer.

[Paul Marshall Psn V-bob]

I play 40k already with super heavies,

It's called apocalypse, I so so hope they don't ruin 40k the way they have fantasy, where biggest wallet or deepest pockets wins

[Aitrus]

I would at least once or twice, if only because I've had a Baneblade since not long after the original Apocalypse came out and have yet to be able to field it, due to a lack of Apoc games in the immediate area.

[Gleipnir]

Depends,

Are we talking superheavy expansion optional rules Like Altar of War missions or Death from the Skies where technically alternate missions and dogfighting rules are part of the mechanic for the main game, or an expansion along lines of spearhead or planetstrike rules where you are playing a seperate subruleset

[abadon58]

I would play against them but prob wouldn't use them. Necron Scarabs or Dark Eldar Wyches with Haywire grenades would soon see them gone and the extra VP would be welcome.

[Xarga]

Honestly i would love for this so called "Escalation" expansion to be true. I would love to field a super heavy of some kind in a regular game because myself, i have no intention to play apocalypse. I know i'll never have a force large enough to play apoc and with that many big guns on the table it just gets silly in my opinion. Though i certainly think their should be some kind of restriction like you've mentioned for heresy. Also i think you should inform your opponent beforehand out of courtesy, not as a rule but just to not pull a dick move and hide it until deployment. I'm sure the expansion will detail it in full the and i highly doubt it will be for "normal 40k" in the sense you people seem to think. More for use in it's own separate rule-set/scenarios like cities of death and planetstrike already are. So that you can't just pull a fast one a bring a super-heavy to a game no one expects you to. This way you choose to roll on the "Escalation" mission table instead of the "Eternal War" mission table. So both sides are warned in advance to the possibility. Though to repeat, i hope some very similar restriction to heresy is in place to avoid small point game cheese.

[YorkNecromancer]

I wouldn't have a problem at all, so long as the points were balanced. After all, there's plenty of units in codicies that see little use because they're quite expensive to field, relative to their utility.

Take the Baneblade. I don't know if its Apocalypse cost is appropriate for a tabletop game, but adding another hundred or so should make it alright.

[Wolfshade]

Was it not the gladiator tournament (or is it format) that showed the only way to beat a super heavy was to have your own superheavy? In which case like flyers initially until there is a good counter which isn't another super heavy I will always vote against it.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I would love to field a Gargantuan Squiggoth, as my Warboss and retinue's personal mount of course. The points cost alone keeps these things to a minimal at 2,000 points and under that you'll notice that 1/2 your army is composed of 1 model... Not a lot single models can survive the firepower that will be focused on to it.

Edit: oh nvm, the Gargantuan Squiggoth is over 500 points. :( :(

[Mr Mystery]

As a rule, no.

They're pointed for the Apocalypse environment, with Strength D, Vortex Grenades and what have you. Outside of that, they're seriously tough to put down, requiring serious concentration of firepower, whilst being able to target multiple units in return.

The pros far outweigh the cons. So outside of a dedicated scenario (such as that found in the rather wonderful Battle Missions) I say no ta.

[Charistoph]

As a rule, no.

They're pointed for the Apocalypse environment, with Strength D, Vortex Grenades and what have you. Outside of that, they're seriously tough to put down, requiring serious concentration of firepower, whilst being able to target multiple units in return.

The pros far outweigh the cons. So outside of a dedicated scenario (such as that found in the rather wonderful Battle Missions) I say no ta.

This is my answer.

[Mr.Pickelz]

After having a quick glance through both FW and GW's apoc books, most crazy super heavies are more than 500 points. If you change D weapons to Str 10 or even 11 (hehe) then even more of the craziness gets tossed out. Unless your constantly playing at 2,500 points and above, things like the Baneblade and Thunderhawk and a lot of stuff with D weapons won't make it to the table, while things like Malcadors, Valdors, etc... which don't necessarily have D weapons, would make it in.

[DWest]

I so so hope they don't ruin 40k the way they have fantasy, where biggest wallet or deepest pockets wins
To be fair, it already is this way to an extent; take a look at the strength of an all-bike White Scars army in the 1500 point range vs. other builds, and then take a look at the price of models for that bike army vs. other builds.

As far as Superheavies goes, I personally would enjoy having one on the table for sheer rule-of-cool, but I think it would be tough to work in very often. And yes, people would find a way to abuse it, but if we removed every element that could/has been abused, the typical Codex would be a postcard.

[steelmage99]

Lets get real here.

The rumors are NOT saying that Super Heavies will be added to standard 40K.

[Renegade]

It really depends on what is being taken, taken down a bane blade at 1.5k with the application of a Venerable Dreadnought, but a baneblade wouldn't get a look-in at 25% and it wasn't easy.

I think that 25% rule would be key, as it would balance out the extreme edge that superheavies now get.

Hope this gets into the core FOC.

[-Tom-]

Was it not the gladiator tournament (or is it format) that showed the only way to beat a super heavy was to have your own superheavy? In which case like flyers initially until there is a good counter which isn't another super heavy I will always vote against it.

Totally ignoring flyers is a viable counter though to them I believe? Is the same viable for Superheavies? If they've spent 500 points on a single superheavy tank and you spend the same on more troops choices are you potentially going to win on VP for actually doing what the scenario says to do even if you can't even hurt the superheavy?

[Deadlift]

I voted always, whilst I don't like upsetting my friends I have to admit the look on their faces when I whip out my wraith knight still isn't getting old. The Knights a killer make no mistake. So if I could field something even more devastating I know I couldn't resist.

[Mr Mystery]

Totally ignoring flyers is a viable counter though to them I believe? Is the same viable for Superheavies? If they've spent 500 points on a single superheavy tank and you spend the same on more troops choices are you potentially going to win on VP for actually doing what the scenario says to do even if you can't even hurt the superheavy?

Not to the same degree in my opinion, simply because a Super Heavy can engage multiple targets each turn. And given their typical weapons loadout, they tend to be very good at taking out their biggest threats. Combine these two factors, and they can make the board very favourable very quickly.

[Renegade]

Not to the same degree in my opinion, simply because a Super Heavy can engage multiple targets each turn. And given their typical weapons loadout, they tend to be very good at taking out their biggest threats. Combine these two factors, and they can make the board very favourable very quickly.

There are probably only two or three armies in the game that don't have a hard counter to superheavies.
Necrons can glance or eat them to death, SM of all types and colours have Termicide, Lance weapon and haywire laugh at your superheaviy, and even Orks can manage to be dangerous.

Of course a lot remains in the hands of the skill and luck of the players.

[Sargejohnson]

Holy crap. I'm actually signed in!

I voted "sometimes".

My local gaming group, a long time ago, before Spearhead even came out, decided it would be fun and acceptable to bring out Superheavies in a normal game of 40k. Back then when they had their own unique damage table, it was a bit overwhelming. So we house ruled that if you took a Superheavy, you could do it, but you must exchange 3 Heavy Support choices for it. The other rule was, you had to bring your own templates for Apoc weapons (if you didn't your bin lid blast was dropped down to the normal heavy weapons template, your SH flamer became a normal flamer etc.), D strength weapons only worked against other Superheavies (otherwise S10), and you needed to have at least a photocopy of the SH damage table.

With the advent of 6e, and with Spearhead, we decided that Superheavies can have their own slot, as per Spearhead, and template rules/D weapon rules still applied. The reason behind this was because ALL vehicles got hull points, which work very similar to how the Structure Points worked. Also, never ever underestimate the power of annoying Las Cannons (or equivalents). Those can take a non-shielded SH down in no time at all. Even more funny when the tank blows up and wipes out half your own army.


In the end you got some cinematic style footage where the heroes of the day struggled with a seemingly unstoppable tank. (Death or Glory attacks were utilized. Which never happens in any other scenario) The battles raged hot and furious, and everybody was a winner at the end of the game. (not points wise, but fun wise) Ultimately ignoring a SH is like 3e Necrons and their nearly invincible Monoliths. Just ignore them, and take out troops and HQ. I suppose we could add a 2vp clause to destroying them now, that's actually a good idea.

To point out, at the initial use of SH's in non-Apoc games, more than half our active players also were moonlighting as tournament players, and now we are predominately the "beer and pretzel" players. It helps that our games are held in an actual pub. :P

[Cadian122]

It depends. I played a 3,000 apoc game the other week, and my Warhound did very little compared to the rest of my army (my opponent had no super heavies), but then I've been on the receiving end of D-weapons in a normal game, and they hurt.
However, there are plenty of super heavies that I think shouldn't be super heavies, e.g. the Macharius tanks, the Malcador tanks, the Valdor, Minotaur, Praetor, Crassus. If my opponent wanted to play a 2k game, and include one as a "Lord of War" unit, then I'd have no problem. I wouldn't have a problem with a Baneblade or Titan - as long as the D-Weapons were house-ruled to S10 (and allow a cover save) to stop the game becoming unenjoyable for the other player.

[Wolfshade]

Totally ignoring flyers is a viable counter though to them I believe? Is the same viable for Superheavies? If they've spent 500 points on a single superheavy tank and you spend the same on more troops choices are you potentially going to win on VP for actually doing what the scenario says to do even if you can't even hurt the superheavy?

I am not sure ignoring them is a viable counter. Consider if I had my entire army in storm ravens they would be your only target then on my final turn disembark the passengers onto the objectives.
Or imgaine I park my superheavy on/near the relic is there anything you could do to clear it out of their without dedicating a couple of turns to shooting?
This is especially so at the lower point scale. 3,000pts the effect of a big bad unit/vehicle wouldn't be too significant, at 1,000pts it is a game changer.

[Xarga]

I am not sure ignoring them is a viable counter. Consider if I had my entire army in storm ravens they would be your only target then on my final turn disembark the passengers onto the objectives.
Or imgaine I park my superheavy on/near the relic is there anything you could do to clear it out of their without dedicating a couple of turns to shooting?
This is especially so at the lower point scale. 3,000pts the effect of a big bad unit/vehicle wouldn't be too significant, at 1,000pts it is a game changer.

Yeah that's all true, though i honestly doubt they would be aloud in such small games. Like we've all said, there is bound to be restrictions of some kind and assuming the 25% rule carries over your 500point super heavy wouldn't be in any game smaller than 2000 points. Which is at the double FOC point. Though again i don't think we can all fully say weather it is a good idea or not until we see the degree of the restrictions in this expansion.

[Popsical]

I am not sure ignoring them is a viable counter. Consider if I had my entire army in storm ravens they would be your only target then on my final turn disembark the passengers onto the objectives.
Or imgaine I park my superheavy on/near the relic is there anything you could do to clear it out of their without dedicating a couple of turns to shooting?
This is especially so at the lower point scale. 3,000pts the effect of a big bad unit/vehicle wouldn't be too significant, at 1,000pts it is a game changer.

Ignoring them on objectives is impossible you are correct.

Even at 3000pts the current apoc rules for supers makes them absurdly powerful.
40k vehicles suffer effects of damage, supers dont. This swings favour massively in the super hev players favour.
Imagine your tanks being impervious to derogative effects, while the enemy suffers shaken stunned or weapon destroyed or immobilised results.
It is simply game winning.

[oni]

If GW wants to release a plastic Thunderhawk I'll be all about supper heavies, but until then I'll stick to the norm.

[Reecius]

More toys is more better!!!

[Big_Bad12]

I really like the idea, but there would need to be some SERIOUS balancing.

[Xenith]

Why not, it would make 40k fun again!

I remember playing a 3rd ed game of my 1000pt BA scout army vs a GW staffers FW baneblade (and just the tank). It was gruesome, but great fun as my sergeants valiantly died planting meltabombs on the thing.

[Arkhan Land]

My only concern is playing some cramped games some of the super heavies/formations could take up a lot of space in an already packed battlefield, especially if its a 2k or 3k game probably gonna make me want to bust out the extra 2x4 panel.

[knas ser]

In tactical terms, SH have little appeal to me - massive points sink for my army. But I voted sometimes because I simply want to field a heavy gravtank. I thought they were great in Epic and now I think they look great at WH40K scale. All the balance and play-effect arguments are valid, imo. But they just look great in the middle of your army.

[Anggul]

It's just one of those things where you both agree to do it beforehand, like any expansion. You could do it before in that case anyway, we don't need a book to tell us we're allowed to use our models that we've bought and spent time on. If you and another player want to play a game with a superheavy or two, then that's what you do, I don't see why it's even a question, it's not like they're going to be used in tournaments, and if they are it will be like Gladiator where you all have one.

[BigGrim]

Once in a blue moon, sure. Why not? It'd probably be something tailored to a scenario to keep the silliness to a minimum but otherwise, sure.

[clively]

Absolutely. I'd love a reason to bring my Tantalus to EVERYTHING!!!

It would mean that I finally have a reason to paint it.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Honestly i would i mean lets be honest they are not cheap. if your tau or eldar you get a frigging riptide / what ever the heck that eldar thing is. your telling me that those things are balance for a normal game of 40k? but if i were to bring in a malcador or any other super heavy that the game would suddenly shift in my favor so imensely that it woudl be game breaking.... this is why i hate GW walkers suck so you make giant walkers that you turn into monsters so they cant be glanced to death... and yet you have people who say it would be unbalanced to bring in a titan or a baneblade.... you do realize if i took a titan or a baneblade its 500+ points for a single model.

[FarseerPaul]

I'd love to bring my big mek stompa out to play more often so yes, every game please! Also: even superheavies have a points value so the cost of my stompa could buy a lot of `regular` codex units (devestators etc) that could bring it down (relatively!) easily...

[Popsical]

Thats where you are wrong. The advantage comes from the lack of effect that supers suffer.
The equivelent 40k units cannot ignore being shot to pieces. Supers at this juncture do ignore being shot to pieces.
They are perfectly capable of fighting to maximum potential till the moment they die, vehicles dont.

[The Sovereign]

As long as we can bring primarchs, I'm all for it!

[vstag]

I think in larger games and as long as your not playing against new players it should be fine.

[Da Gargoyle]

I have done it with my son using his Bane Blade and or Shadow Sword and restricted the game to 1500 points, although he found out that at that level it is really only effective with one SH. We have quite the collection of ruins and so a number of times the Super Heavy has been the objective in a slightly different way. I has to move down a main avenue and negotiate a corner to move off the table, say primary mission = move to new fire base. I am Eldar and don't have super heavies but have Dragons, Wraith Lord, Wraith Guard and Warlocks. Even with 6th Ed it can work. My job is to stop the vehicle from moving through the board of course. With lots of cover and moving down the street he has to use support troops to fend off the close flank attacks.

He usually supports with walkers, chimeras and veteran units, (After all your not going to use conscripts for an escort on a capital weapon). Without the standard troops he can't prepare in advance against flanking targets such as a Falcon in a side street, because without line of sight he can't claim to know its there. Also we have an added rule that his infantry use their radios to communicate target information which means the one with the radio better not be closest to an enemy unit or they have decide to run to the tank or engage and destroy. It is fun and harder to achieve than you might think

[-Prime-]

We sometimes break them out. Only in games at 2500 or more points though.