Look out Sir vs Focus Fire

[Defenestratus]

So a situation happened yesterday in my game versus Tau.

I had a bike unit that had an autarch and farseer in it. They had turbo boosted across the table and were hiding in the back corner of my opponent's deployment zone behind a mostly LOS-blocking piece of terrain. Unfortunately I couldn't fit all of the models out of sight of where my opponent would be next round and a squad of firewarriors opened up on them. Specifically my autarch was out in the open whereas the rest of the squad was behind cover and this is where my opponent used focus fire.

Now the problem is... the squad itself had a better cover save due to being behind cover - but he was focus firing on my Autarch. When I pass my LOS rolls, do I get the better cover save of the models that are in cover since they are the ones that are taking the wounds, or do they get the Autarch's less favorable save since they are in effect jumping in the way of the incoming shots? I read the relevant rules sections and its not abundantly clear.

[DarkLink]

You always, always, take the save of the model LOS has re-allocated the wound to. It's very explicit that each individual model always takes its own saves.

Focus Fire does not mean you somehow gain a version of Ignores Cover. It only means that wounds are allocated to models with weaker cover saves, and excess wounds are wasted. But LOS allows you to reallocate around that restriction, at the cost of potentially killing models that would not have otherwise been killable.

But... bikes have a 3+ armor save, and Fire Warriors don't have a good AP. So how did you get a cover save better than your armor, without it affecting the whole unit and thus negating this whole question?

[Defenestratus]

You always, always, take the save of the model LOS has re-allocated the wound to. It's very explicit that each individual model always takes its own saves.

Focus Fire does not mean you somehow gain a version of Ignores Cover. It only means that wounds are allocated to models with weaker cover saves, and excess wounds are wasted. But LOS allows you to reallocate around that restriction, at the cost of potentially killing models that would not have otherwise been killable.

But... bikes have a 3+ armor save, and Fire Warriors don't have a good AP. So how did you get a cover save better than your armor, without it affecting the whole unit and thus negating this whole question?

Warlock Conceal.

Jink + Conceal = 3+ save (same as armor)
Ruin + conceal = 2+ save

Thanks for the clarification!

[Nabterayl]

This result sort of surprises me, but I think the answer is that the models excluded by Focus Fire cannot take the hit at all.

Focus Fire states:

Your opponent can only allocate Wounds to models with a cover save equal to or worse (i.e a higher value) than the value stated.

Look Out, Sir states:

Determine which model in the unit is closest to the character, and resolve the Wound against that model instead. ... Only one Look Out, Sir roll can be taken per Wound allocated - once the Wound has been transferred (or not), no further attempts to reallocate it can be made.

Note that last clause - the result of a successful Look Out, Sir roll is to reallocate the Wound. It is, in other words, a species of allocation - and Focus Fire states that the opponent cannot allocate Wounds to certain models.

So I would say that if the closest model to the Autarch had a cover save excluded by the enemy's Focus Fire, it was not eligible to have a wound reallocated to it via Look Out, Sir, and thus no Look Out, Sir attempts could be made.

Rules-wise that sort of surprises me, but narratively, it doesn't bother me. The squad is busy diving into cover while their assailants focus their fire on the trailing autarch. The last guy in isn't in a position to wrench himself around and shield the autarch in that situation.

[Sly]

As a counterpoint, though, your opponent is only allocating the wound originally. The defending player is doing the re-allocating when he uses Look Out, Sir, and the defending player's allocation limitation is by model distance, not by the Focus Fire rules.

Can you allocate wounds using Look Out, Sir to a model that would normally not be in range of the shooting unit's weapons? If so, it would follow that Look Out, Sir allows the defender to bypass the normal wound allocation limitations that the attacking player operates under, and therefore he should be able to bypass Focus Fire also.

[Asuryan]

They had turbo boosted across the table


Warlock Conceal.

Jink + Conceal = 3+ save (same as armor)
Ruin + conceal = 2+ save

Thanks for the clarification!

Jink is a 5+ with turbo boost is a 4+ and with conceal it is a 2+ so all you bikes should have had a 2+ cover save.

[Defenestratus]

Jink is a 5+ with turbo boost is a 4+ and with conceal it is a 2+ so all you bikes should have had a 2+ cover save.

Yeah I had mistaken the calculation at the time. Totally forgot about the +1 to the cover save due to moving flat out.

However, the rules conundrum that it presented was quite interesting, and I can see it playing out both ways.

[clively]

This result sort of surprises me, but I think the answer is that the models excluded by Focus Fire cannot take the hit at all.



The person doing the shooting does the initial allocation using Focus Fire. The player being shot then re-allocates, provided a LOS is passed.

This is why you generally try to use FF to snipe the guy carrying the huge gun.. not the squad leader.