Sisters of Battle: Condemnor Bolter

[Wiley One]

Question is how would this work against a unit that isn't a psyker per the "Brotherhood of Psykers" rule, but had an IC or Character that was a psyker in the unit?

Example: I have a unit of Tac Marines with a Librarian in the unit. Unit is hit twice by the Condemnor Bolter. What happens? Psyker takes the hits thus negating the closest model suffers wounds first rules? Or would it go on the closest model/s and if they were psykers then they would suffer perils? Or, would every psyker in the unit suffer perils for the number of hits, and then the wounds caused by the weapon are resolved as a part of the wound pool?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Nabterayl]

There is no really solid answer to this question, unfortunately. In fact, if you re-read the Psyker special rule, you'll see that it's one of the special rules that is applied to models, not units - so there's even a question whether a unit can have the Psyker special rule at all. We have had a discussion about this question here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36276-Adepta-Sororitas-1st-Impressions/page4), but the truth is the text does not provide a very satisfactory answer.

I think this is an area where there is no good textual answer, and we are left fumbling in the gray areas for what we think is the best interpretation. Here is my summary of the issues:

What it really boils down to, in my opinion, is what it means for a unit to "have" a special rule. Consider the librarian by himself: he is a model, and he is also a unit (or rather, he belongs to a unit that happens to consist of only one model, namely himself). The librarian, in his role as a model, has the Psyker special rule. Does it follow that the librarian's one-model unit has the Psyker special rule?

You could say no, on the grounds that the Psyker special rule never talks about units having it. But I think most people would say yes. If so, on what grounds? Is it that a unit is considered to "have" a special rule so long as all of its constituent models have that rule? Is it that a unit is considered to "have" a special rule so long as one of its constituent models has that rule?

If you can answer that for yourself, then I think you know where you stand. If you think that a unit only "has" a special rule if 100% of its constituent models has that special rule, then a tac squad joined by a librarian does not have the Psyker special rule, and the librarian is thus immune to the stake crossbow. In fact, even if the librarian takes the stake's wound and fails his save, he's still immune. Yes, a model with the Psyker special rule has been wounded by the stake, but a unit with the Psyker special rule was not hit by the stake. This may seem like an obvious flaw.

If, on the other hand, you think that unit "has" a special rule if even one of its constituent models has that special rule, then a tac squad joined by a librarian does have the Psyker special rule, and the librarian will be sought out by the stake 100% of the time. This interpretation also seems to have its obvious flaws, not least because many other special rules seem to specify when a unit is affected by a single model that has the rule (e.g., Fearless).

Or you could argue that a model that is wounded by the stake crossbow obviously has to suffer Perils, because it's obvious. The problem with that is that the rule doesn't say anything about wounding, or models - it only asks if a unit has been hit. To say, "Well, a unit with the Psyker special rule has clearly been hit by the stake because a model with the Psyker special rule has been wounded by the stake" is drawing some pretty shaky logical equivalences.

So ... no good answer.

[Patrick Boyle]

Question is how would this work against a unit that isn't a psyker per the "Brotherhood of Psykers" rule, but had an IC or Character that was a psyker in the unit?

Example: I have a unit of Tac Marines with a Librarian in the unit. Unit is hit twice by the Condemnor Bolter. What happens? Psyker takes the hits thus negating the closest model suffers wounds first rules? Or would it go on the closest model/s and if they were psykers then they would suffer perils? Or, would every psyker in the unit suffer perils for the number of hits, and then the wounds caused by the weapon are resolved as a part of the wound pool?

Any help would be appreciated.

I'm not going to wade into the rest of it but I'll try to hit this part. As I understand there's the S5 whateverotherstats shot, and then there's the extra effect of perils triggered if there's a psyker. They're separate effects. Regardless of how the perils works on your hypothetical unit, it's merely a result of the weapon itself landing a hit, and the weapon still shoots as normal. So the closest model still takes the hit from the bolt as normal.

As for the rest I'm pretty sure that's been covered to death in the later pages of this thread. (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36276-Adepta-Sororitas-1st-Impressions) Short answer; it's unclear.

[Nabterayl]

Regardless of how the perils works on your hypothetical unit, it's merely a result of the weapon itself landing a hit, and the weapon still shoots as normal. So the closest model still takes the hit from the [stake] as normal.
Yes, very much so.