Is a Dissertation taking it to far?

[xbenblasterx]

Okay, so I'm currently very big into my 40k!, I'm playing it, I'm reading it I'm practically breathing the stuff and I don't believe it's an addiction to wargaming alone I think this is a love affair with 40k, the quality of the models and the expansiveness of the lore has stolen my heart and doesn't look like it's letting go.

From a guy who could easily poor 40 hours plus into skyrim in a week, I haven't touched Video games in about a month and this is because much of free time is dominated by either painting or playing and I'm loving it!

However I'm also battling through my third year of a university degree in film and am struggling to decide upon a dissertation question. I'd love to center it aaround the Warhammer universe in some way but I'm not sure how, am I taking my passion too far?

[Wolfshade]

Well there is the spacemarine film, ::shudder::

But moreover if you have a passion for something that makes writting your dissertation easier, though I would check with the tutor/supervisor first to ensure that it covers all the bases.

I am sure if you wanted to do it on that and needed other peoples' views then the BoLS community would be happy to help.

[Katharon]

From a literary perspective, the Horus Heresy is basically analogous to the Biblical "War in Heaven." Lucifer is the Fallen Son (Horus) who turns the Angelic Hosts (Legionnes Astartes) upon themselves and seeks to dominate God's (the Emperor) creation of Heaven and Earth (the Imperium of Man). I actually did a paper on WH40K lore in connection to these similarities for a Myths & Legends class I was taking as a free credit four years ago. Twas fun.

[Wolfshade]

The Horus Heresy all started because it was cheaper to have identical plastic figures and have one red and one blue then build a narrative for the game hence the seige of terra board game was born :)

[Psychosplodge]

40 hours in a week? You aren't trying hard enough, I managed that Friday night - Sunday the weekend I bought it :D

The other stuff. You could compare the literary universe of Black library with another sci fi setting like the Culture novels, Star wars EU, Star trek, or some other setting.
But be careful you don't turn your hobby into a chore.

[YorkNecromancer]

However I'm also battling through my third year of a university degree in film and am struggling to decide upon a dissertation question. I'd love to center it aaround the Warhammer universe in some way but I'm not sure how, am I taking my passion too far?

Having been where you are, I'd recommend against it; you're on a film course, and apart from 'Event Horizon', 'Ultramarines' and a few really execrable live action sequences from computer games, there's very little of 40K on screen. Yeah, you could argue that David Lynch's 'Dune' film is visually a 40K film (and thematically, given just how much of the 40K universe is cleanly taken from 'Dune') but it's a massive stretch.

I think you're making life harder for yourself than necessary.

You need to pick a topic that can be easily understood, but which has sufficient depth. Mine was a study of the films of Peter Jackson (and this was in 1998, long before 'Lord of The Rings') in relation to auteur theory. Before that, I had been considering a feminist appraisal of the films I was into (largely David Cronenberg and the 80's/90's wave of intelligent 'body horror' films). I wanted to do so because I was massively into feminism as a way of viewing the world, and body horror (because it's the type of horror I find most disturbing). It just wasn't a good fit, though. There's following your passions, and then there's shoehorning them into everything.

It's great you love 40K, but a straight dissertation on it related to films seems unworkable to me.

Why not identify what it is you love about 40K? Write a list of themes, aesthetics, ideas, etc... and then see if you can spin either of those off into a dissertation? For example, I love the dystopic satire of 40K, and the way it is used to highlight the many, many flaws of fascism. I could use that as a base to look at dystopic films which satirise culture: 'Soylent Green', 'Logan's Run', Ken Russel's 'The Devils', 'Demolition Man', 'Battle Royale', 'The Hunger Games', etc... Much more workable - it would be possible to refine that even further, to look at the use of the storytelling tropes that are deployed, patterns to satires from different countries (i.e.: is there a difference in the presentation of religion as a tool of social control in, say, American dystopias (i.e.: the Zion organisation in 'The Matrix') as compared to British (i.e.: the Catholic church in 'The Devils') as opposed to French (i.e.: the government in 'Banlieue 13')?

Ultimately, I think you could use a theme from 40K to spin some ideas off (satire; presentation of violence as heroic/a solution/noble; lack of representations of women; etc...) but if you just base it on 40K straight, you'll come a cropper, because you're doing a film degree, not a gaming one.


You could compare the literary universe of Black library with another sci fi setting like the Culture novels, Star wars EU, Star trek, or some other setting.

If you're on a pure film degree DON'T DO THIS. I mean, if you really want to, you could check with your lecturers, but I imagine they'll say no.

It's stating the obvious, but film degrees are not literature degrees, and film and literature have completely different ways of storytelling, means of production, etc... The two can be compared, but ony in the same way that 'Monolpoly' can be compared to the 'Mass Effect' trilogy. Film vs. literature is a HUGE topic, so don't go near it - not unless it's going to be the focus of your dissertation itself.

[xbenblasterx]

Cheers guys. I didn't expect the response from this post to be so helpful seriously! I appreciate all you're help, and I think avoiding 40k may be the best option in general as ytou say I wouldn't want my passion to become a chore and I believe I was simply trying to shoehorn it into my dissertation and making life hard on myself.

[Psychosplodge]

Also I didn't read the OP properly, I missed that you were doing film... :(

[Mr Mystery]

40k is also allegorical to post-war Britain. Urban decay, lost splendour....

[Wolfshade]

40k is also allegorical to post-war Britain. Urban decay, lost splendour....

I had never considered that.

Though I suppose you could also argue the same for any post-colonial power.

[Mr Mystery]

But being uniquely British, very much post-war Britain :p

The failed gothic grandeur matches our now defunct industrial architecture, particularly with entire cities left to rot following the decline of our industrial heyday.

I suppose if you really dug down, you could assign societal archetypes to the various original species from Rogue Trader. Kind of. Ish. Would be tenuous, but doable.

[Psychosplodge]

Well the orks wouldnt be tenuous...

[Mr Mystery]

Squits as well!

[miteyheroes]

I suppose if you really dug down, you could assign societal archetypes to the various original species from Rogue Trader. Kind of. Ish. Would be tenuous, but doable.

I remember speaking to Rick Priestley about this at a Games Day a few years back (they one where they released Warhammer Forge and Dark Eldar?)

He said that Dwarfs/Squats are Northerners: tough, hard-drinking miners. Elves/Eldar are Southerners: nancy boys, one and all. Orcs/Orks are Cockney football hooligans.

[Wolfshade]

For a more generalised topic it could be the use of historical archetypes portrayed as alien races in science fiction universes.

[YorkNecromancer]

I remember speaking to Rick Priestley about this at a Games Day a few years back (they one where they released Warhammer Forge and Dark Eldar?)

He said that Dwarfs/Squats are Northerners: tough, hard-drinking miners. Elves/Eldar are Southerners: nancy boys, one and all. Orcs/Orks are Cockney football hooligans.

I always thought this stuff was so obvious it didn't need stating. Like how Hobbits are the Middle Class - the Shire is called that because of places like Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, etc...

Anything based off Tolkein sticks to this template. TV Tropes has some good articles on this.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveRaces
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CantArgueWithElves
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyAxisOfEvil

I quite like a quote from Tropes that points out how these archetypes work across Star Trek:


Star Trek tends to map over to fantasy races pretty well. Aside from the Five Races, you have the Klingons as orcs, the Borg are pretty close to undead, the Cardassians as xenophobic Humanoids, the Romulans countering the Space Elf Vulcans as Dark Elves, and the Ferengi much like goblins.

Bottom line: once you start noticing tropes, you can't stop.

[euansmith]

I guess that some of the sources that informed 40k (mainly the work of Michael Moorcock) would have grown out of the collapse of the British Empire.

I was impressed by some of the answers above; thoughtful and helpful... entirely unlike the response to Plastic Dudesmen :)

[euansmith]

A study of the xenophobia (or even outright racism) in the 40k background?

[Psychosplodge]

I was impressed by some of the answers above; thoughtful and helpful... entirely unlike the response to Plastic Dudesmen :)

Outside the 40k general(being the first section) and the rules threads(*shudder*) the rest of the board is pretty reasonable.

[YorkNecromancer]

I guess that some of the sources that informed 40k (mainly the work of Michael Moorcock) would have grown out of the collapse of the British Empire.

"Mainly" Moorcock? Totally and utterly disagree with the word "mainly". Moorcock contributed Chaos, Tolkien the basic races, Heinlen's 'Starship Troopers' gave us Space Marines and Imperial Guard, with 'Dune' the vast majority of the culture of the Imperium, with 2000AD supplying amost literally everything else. Everything that comes later is then based on whatever GW thought was cool in the nineties. ("Anime is awesome! Let's put it in 40K" Next we get the Tau. "Wow, how come we never did something based on 'The Terminator'?" = We get the Necrons. And so on.)

There's no one "main" influence; it's just everything a bunch of late-eighties metal geeks thought was awesome all rolled up into one.


A study of the xenophobia (or even outright racism) in the 40k background?

It's got to be linked to film.

Also, that already exists: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000
Seriously, if you haven't read it, it's fascinating. Some good points.


I was impressed by some of the answers above; thoughtful and helpful... entirely unlike the response to Plastic Dudesmen

Plastic Dudesmen is promoted on the front page, and charitably can be described as execrable. It's not even passingly funny; the artwork is scratchy, subpar junk; and yet IT'S ON THE FRONT PAGE.

You want to step into the big chair, you need to be ready to prove you deserve it.

PD has done literally nothing to convince me it warrants any kind of attention at all. Confronted with a weight of criticism, have the artist and writer upped their game? No. They just churn out lame comic after lame comic, and we're supposed to swallow that like it's delicious ice-cream.

No.

Sorry, just no.

40K can be funny - Orks basically in their entirety are the proof of that. But yet another lazy comic about Geek culture and gaming? There are LITERALLY billions of those; they are the default topic for online twenty-something writers. PD has nothing to say, and it says it too loud, so it can just go away.

It reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TryNewyM89A

[Wolfshade]

Disagree with Necrons.

40k was a simple port of the fantasy races into space, look back far enough the eldar are space elf, dwarfs are squats, humans are the empire, slann became space slaan.

[Psychosplodge]

I don't think they were originally a port of tomb kings were they? They just became that later on?

[YorkNecromancer]

Disagree with Necrons.

40k was a simple port of the fantasy races into space, look back far enough the eldar are space elf, dwarfs are squats, humans are the empire, slann became space slaan.

The Jes Goodwin art book "The Gothic and Eldritch" includes his concept sketches of the Necrons back from the early 90's, before there were any models. It explicitly references BOTH Terminator AND Tomb Kings, with "Let's do a 'Terminator' style army of robots - they can be Tomb Kings in space".

The two ideas were both there from the start, so the 'Terminator' influence is a valid one.

[Wolfshade]

Originally, they don't exist I don't think. Stylistically, the use of scarabs and some of the details on the old lords looked very egyptian/tomb kings.

Edit following Yorkies' post
Ah I see.

[ElectricPaladin]

Go for it!

We geeks have this way of despising ourselves and the things we love and insisting that they are not worthy of serious attention or scrutiny. Kind of ridiculous, given the amount of money we pour into these things. I reject that attitude and encourage geek self-respect and geek self-love! I say if you love it and you think there's something deeper there, go for it!

[Psychosplodge]

Fair enough. I remember them being very Terminatoresque (remember the free necron?) not very tomb kings. In fact did Tomb kings have a release then? or were they just undead in those days?

[Houghten]

"Anime is awesome! Let's put it in 40K" Next we get the Tau.

I continue to fail to understand in what way the Tau are connected to anime.

[ElectricPaladin]

I continue to fail to understand in what way the Tau are connected to anime.

Because xenophobia, to be honest.

The Tau are vaguely Asian, right? And so is anime. And giant robots are in anime. And the Tau have battlesuits, which are kind of like giant robots. So let's just reduce all of "Tau," "Asian," and "anime" into a single, dismissive and annoyed whine "they put anime in my 40k! Waaah!"

It's easy to reduce and dismiss the foreign.

[GallandroX]

Tomb Kings not around back then im sure. Free necron looked like a stripped down Terminator with an egyptian necklace (and bent gun if you subscribed to WD!) Looking back the necrons were the undead with their reanimate rules. Do agree with Wolfshade though, every WFB army has a 40k counterpoint, if not thematic then in playing style

[YorkNecromancer]

giant robots are in anime

Yup. They have sleek lines, they look futuristic. Mechs are cool; who's reducing and dismissing the foreign?

What's wrong with something being inspired by anime?!

[ElectricPaladin]

Yup. They have sleek lines, they look futuristic. Mechs are cool; who's reducing and dismissing the foreign?

Not you, obviously, but a lot of people who complain about the Tau do so in terms that border on the racist.

[Katharon]

The Tau were introduced into the game at the time when WH40K was first being introduced to the Asian market. It was felt that an oriental feel to the race might make it sell better.

[Houghten]

The Tau are vaguely Asian, right?

Uh... whut?

[The Last Lamenter]

It has tremendous merit for study, don't listen to the reductionist camp, I'm sure Joseph Campbell would have had plenty to say about Lord of The Rings and Dune if he'd bothered. And don't worry about it turning into a chore. If you love it, it'll sustain your hours of study, and you'll look at it in a new way.

[Jennifer Burdoo]

Me, I think the Tau are based on British colonialism, particularly the Indian Raj. The Tau are the British - all-powerful, plenty of tech, condescending. Everyone else - Kroot, Gue'vesa, the insect guys - are the natives they variously conquered or insinuated their way into controlling. (Notice that the insects were, ahem, "gifted" with helmets that seem to make them all-fired-up about the Tau?) A colonial army back in the day was largely native sepoys, led by members of the white culture present - and after rebellions such as the Great Mutiny, the sepoys were deliberately prevented from having up-to-date equipment, so they could be crushed again if necessary.

[Nabterayl]

It has tremendous merit for study, don't listen to the reductionist camp, I'm sure Joseph Campbell would have had plenty to say about Lord of The Rings and Dune if he'd bothered. And don't worry about it turning into a chore. If you love it, it'll sustain your hours of study, and you'll look at it in a new way.
It's certainly not "taking it too far." The question is, can you actually get a good dissertation out of it? There are a lot more things that are fruitful to study than there are that will get you a good dissertation in the realm within which you're supposed to be producing a good dissertation. If your job is to produce a dissertation about sculpture it probably doesn't matter how much you love Jane Austen, or how worthy of study she and her works may be.

Similarly, given that you're a film student, I'd ask: what would you use as source material for your dissertation? Regardless of how worthy of study 40K as a whole may be, can you identify specific works that are appropriate to a film dissertation that you feel are worthy of having a dissertation written about them?