List Swapping...Where is the line drawn?

[RedScorpionsGirl]

Ok, after reading the post about friendly game list swaps, it brings another question to mind. What do you think about list swaps for tournaments. I give you a few examples and ask your opinion.

1. When an individual brings a binder full of 2k pt lists, and after seeing what everyone is playing, chooses the list moments before the start of the tournament.

2. When an individual waits to see what armies are being played, goes out to their vehicle, and chooses not only the army they believe will beat everything there, but a list out of a group in the case as well.

3. Waiting to see what everyone is playing then getting your army.

4. Arrive early to the tournament, bringing an army in, and unpack it. Then, after seeing what everyone else is playing, determine that it can't possibly do well, then pack it up, and pull another stand by army out to play.

5. Sitting in the store while everyone is unpacking their respective armies, then build your list tailored to what is at the tourment today.

6. Being intentionally vague on your army list. By this I am meaning abbreviate everything and simply put a point cost at the end of it, not label your tanks/valkryies as a squadron or individual choices, deciding whether or not your grandmaster has a command squad or it is an elite choice (all depending on what will serve the best outcome) etc.. Things of this nature.

7. "Forgetting your books" so you can go outside to switch army lists.

8. Using "counts as" models because you don't have that specific model that you changed your list and added because you need it to win.


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I know that a great number of answers to each of these are "The Tournament Organizer should....(insert here)", but what I actually ask is, what your personal opinion is, would you put up with things like this occuring at a tournament?

If so, why?
If not, how would you bring the problem to light?

I'm really curious, and to answer the question, yes I have seen each of these occur on various occasions, that's why I'm curious if I'm not the only one seeing these occur.

[RocketRollRebel]

Thats kinda a lot of ridiculous. In a tournament setting some things like last minute list writing (provided its wysiwyg) or picking your army last minute isn't cheating but pretty lame and extremely unsporting. Being vauge on a list to an advantage is very close to straight up cheating. Small local tournaments with friends and people you know shouldn't have a problem like that really. While most larger GT style tournaments will ask for a list or what army you are using ahead of time and will require everything to be wysiwyg.

A tournament is more about playing new people, challenging yourself tactically and having a fun time. Of course the goal is to win and/or place high but make sure to have fun and don't be a douche in the process.:p

If its a friendly pick up game then anything goes really as long as you both are ok with it.

[Culven]

I don't really see any problems with a player selecting their army list at the last moment when they know what they have the potential of facing. They still don't know which armies they will play nor do they know which missions will be used when facing each of those potential armies. I could only see an advantage gained if every other army was nearly the same. Otherwise, the player will still need a some-what well-rounded army. Many tournaments prevent this by requiring that army lists be submitted in advance so that a judge can review it.

Building the list while sitting there is often not an option since many tournaments require a typed list.

Trying to be vague so that options can be shifted about is often going to be difficult since the player will need to be able to clearly prove what they have and where it is.

Most tournaments are more strict on WYSIWYG, so a proxy/counts as/stand in model wouldn't be permitted.

All of these issues should be addressed in some way by the tournament rules. Advanced submission of the army list and WYSIWYG should take care of all situations.

[lobster-overlord]

"The Tournament Organizer should...."

ask for your army list as you enter the door. If you don't have it, you need to have it before you come in.\

"The Tournament Organizer should...."

keep players from pulling out their armies until they are ready to compete.

Blind competition keeps it competative.

[eagleboy7259]

I thought that most tournaments had you sign up not only your information but also the army that you will be playing to avoid just this very thing. I know we did this even when I was a kid in unofficial tournaments. Don't most of the big ones require you to turn in your list ahead of time to make sure that you aren't cheating on your list and that it is to points and of a legal build depending on the tournament?

I don't think that problem #1 is that wrong really... I know I do this at least in casual play. Certain builds just don't work against MEQ, Mech, or Hordes so I don't really think of it as being cheesy or unsportsmanlike but rather the difference between getting my face smashed in or having an enjoyable day. I think the rest of the list is kind of irksome, but for 90% of the armies and army builds in the game are all somewhat closely competitive since GW tries to maintain a balance across all the codexes so swapping one list for another or one army for another doesn't really bother me.

[Hand of Dume]

I've been to tourneys where when you call the store to put your name on the list, they tell you to send payment and a copy of your list ahead of time. Always seemed fair to me and avoids problems.

Casual play, I know most of the people and would give them hell for trying to pull something mlike that.

[jeffersonian000]

I've been known to "Bait & Switch" when going into a tournament, where I display one army and actually play a different one. This screws over those that tailor their list to defeat the armies on display rather than those that bring a pre-built list and stay with it. I always play my registered list and it is the only list I bring, but not the only army I bring.

Is it fair? Yes, because the only players that are affected are the ones that try to gain an unfair advantage on those that are gaming in good faith.

SJ

[RocketRollRebel]

I've been known to "Bait & Switch" when going into a tournament, where I display one army and actually play a different one. This screws over those that tailor their list to defeat the armies on display rather than those that bring a pre-built list and stay with it. I always play my registered list and it is the only list I bring, but not the only army I bring.

Is it fair? Yes, because the only players that are affected are the ones that try to gain an unfair advantage on those that are gaming in good faith.

SJ

Thats umm... a heck of a lot of effort to... what? I've never seen someone walk around trying to gauge the competition in order to pick what army build or army they are going to use. You have no idea what you will be up against. You can make a guess by what you see online (mech guard, vulkan marines, plague marines, ect ect,) but thats about it.

[doublek666]

Like in video games, people feel cheating is acceptable as long as they win, totally defeats the purpose of this game fun for both people. Who cares who wins, and what do you win in Tournaments, more stuff to 'not' paint. I recommend getting your own table, and never dealing with this crap ever again, and tournament lists should be WYSIWYG and submitted in advance!

[Psychosplodge]

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There's the line!