Command Squad/Viable?

[Forteller]

I want to discuss in a plain new thread the effectiveness of Command Squads and the tactics that can be fielded in order to use them effectively:

In my own opinion they re a relatively cheap squad that can be as good as assault terminators at almost the same price with included feel no pain and lots of customization options. I want to discuss their playability factor,if one could make a roster around them,if its worth fielding more then one,units it compares to and finally,if using specific unique HQs with it,good combinations;

For starters lets mention that it needs a space marine captain or one of the following unique HQs: Captain Sicarius, Captain Lysander,Shadow Captain Shriike and Kor'sarro Khan.

Following find an information sheet for easy reference:

Base Point Cost 115:

Squad: 4 Veterans 1 Apothecary (1 Company Champion)

They got basic space marine stats albeit with 2 attacks each and the company champion has a WS of 5

Veteran Carrying Company Standard:15 Points

Veteran Upgrade to Company Champion(Power Weapon and Combat Shield Included):15 Points

The entire squad may ride Space Marine Bikes: 90 Points

Model Options:

Any Veteran may upgrade to a

Storm Bolter:3 points

Flamer: 5 points

Meltagun,combi melta,combi flamer,combi plasma: 10 points

Plasma gun,power sword,lightning claw:15 points

Power fist: 25 points

Thunder hammer: 30 points

Plasma Pistol: 15 points (PLEASE PLEASE explain to me why something with AP 2 str 7 and a chance to wound its owner is MORE expensive than a meltagun with same range str8 AP 1)

Melta Bombs:5 Points

Storm Shield: 15 Points


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Personally i ve been considering the possibility of fielding them with nothing but meltaguns and stormshields,its gonna provide survability along with feel no pain and they can go from vehicle to vehicle popping things.

[Earthen]

As soon as any command squad on foot hits 200 points, you HAVE to compare it to the performance of TH/SS squad if you plan to play seriously.

The only way a command squad is viable in any list, in my eyes, is if its the assault unit for a SM bike army, because its the best and most mobile option available. Still doesn't hold a candle to nob bikers or seer council point for point, though. Maybe with khan and furious charge things look up a little more, but now youve got a unit thats just asking to bite a battlecannon template.







"Plasma Pistol: 15 points (PLEASE PLEASE explain to me why something with AP 2 str 7 and a chance to wound its owner is MORE expensive than a meltagun with same range str8 AP 1)"

Because you still get your extra CC attack and may be equipped with something like a PF at the same time.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Because you still get your extra CC attack and may be equipped with something like a PF at the same time.
PF + PP is almost pointless to me, unless it's on Plague Marines.

[Forteller]

Did not know that "meltaguns" didn't offer an extra attack in close combat,i always thought of them as pistols,at any point, you "Can" equip BOTH a meltagun AND a power fist,afaik its a one handed weapon,and secondly,if you equip a PF,afaik anyhow you lose the close combat extra attack due to dual wielding, from what i ve been told in regards to PFs at least,i may be wrong but i dont think so......

Furthermore one has to wonder,and YES its a stupid thought but hear me out:

Command squad with Shrike who grants infiltrate,some manner of beast the likes of Lysander or Vulkan attached to it,and perhaps a techmarine or so,with the right specs around 100 points a techmarine gets like 8 attacks,anyhow discuss on :)

[Brosef Stalin]

I'm starting a White Scars army, and a command squad on bikes could really wreck house if played correctly. My last game I fielded them on foot along with Khan (not that I'm planning on using him every time), and they were devastating. They're just really versatile and really deadly.

[Forteller]

In my own head,i dunno i see them as Assault Terminators 2.0. and i mean seriously consider them having both FnP and a +3 inv save at all times,thats two rolls to save your skin,at almost all times if you put in a BEAST (AKA high toughness high wounds unique HQ) to soak up some AP1-2 weapons i dont see them threatened by anything. Thanks for the comments so far,please discuss how you would field two of them and combinations of different unique HQs attached to them :)

[Earthen]

k anyhow you lose the close combat extra attack due to dual wielding, from what i ve been told in regards to PFs at least,


that is totally right, i thought Power Weapon and typed power fist. Still not worth it.

You cannot equip a meltagun and a power fist, simply because there arent any options that allow it. You might be able to get away with it via the wording in the sternguard entry, but id have to take a good hard look at it, and itd be a poor choice anyway.


Command squad is NOT terminator assault squad 2.0

You pay 67 points per model if you want a 5 man squad with all TH/SS.

compare that to 40 points for terminators. 27 points more per model?!? thats 3/4 of the way to a second 5 man terminator squad Additionally, FnP is NOT that good. functionally its similar to a 2+ save.

you are also inhibited in the following ways:
You may not increase the number of command squad members
You are forced to use smaller bases - this is worse than you might think. big bases are important in cc.
You dont have the option to enter play via teleport.


Command squad with Shrike who grants infiltrate,some manner of beast the likes of Lysander or Vulkan attached to it,and perhaps a techmarine or so,with the right specs around 100 points a techmarine gets like 8 attacks,anyhow discuss on



tech marines do not get anywhere near that number of attacks. If you run shrike and vulkan, you have no HQ slots left for master of the forge. Techmarines are not independent characters. tech marines and master of the forges are bad in CC, specifically because they have no invulnerable save. theyll die before their servo harness gets a swing vs any army decent in CC. Master of the forge costs 100 points base, so i dont know how you could upgrade him and still keep him around 100 points.


sure that trick will get you close. But a mech army will just drive away, leaving you in the dust. Look, if you want to play something like that, just run vulkan and throw him in a LR with 5 terminators, that way they'll at least be able to catch what they're after.

[Nabterayl]

When I think about FNP (which I do a lot, in the context of my nob bikers), I think about it in terms of beating up on things that can't fight back - i.e., those without a lot of power weapon or AP1/2 attacks. Chaos space marines and grey hunters are a good example. Those units can hit an assault unit with a lot of attacks, but they're only S4 regular attacks. FNP will help a relatively small unit of assaulting models chew through a unit like that. 2+ armor is the same way. It isn't for attacking elite units. It's for beating up on the helpless units.

It's important to distinguish between units that are good at assaulting regular units (even those with a lot of attacks), and units that are good at assaulting other assault specialists. In 40K, there are essentially three elements which can define an "assault specialist:"
Very high initiative and a lot of attacks
Very good invulnerable save
A mechanic to ignore armor saves
Most armies' assault specialists have at least two out of three. Neither FNP nor 2+ armor are on the list, because they are too easily defeated by #3 (which is the most common). If you want to assault an assault specialist, you'd better have two out of the three as well. So when it comes to taking on the enemy's assault specialists, FNP is irrelevant.

But bear in mind that just because a unit cost a lot of points or seems badass doesn't mean you should throw it at the enemy's similarly expensive and badass-seeming death star unit of assault specialists. FNP and 2+ armor may not help you defeat the enemy's Assault Unit of Doom, but if five of your models can kill one squad of enemy troops a turn without taking casualties, who cares?

[eagleboy7259]

I tend to take a liking to the biker mounted command squad. Some guy on the other forum I use was so irked by it that he did one of those "please help! (this unit) is ruining my life" type posts that seem to creep up from time to time. The speed of bikes alone was a major factor, being able to tie up into assault by turn 2 and more or less choose to pick a fight that they can win or that would otherwise disrupt your own army scheme helps out greatly.

IMOP anytime you can break an HQ choice from the mold by using bikes, jump packs, wings, outflanking, etc. greatly improves its impact in the field. Like picking troops choices for a better reason than just having troops choices.

[Javin]

I play guard and go the other way. I do a shooty command squad, 4 plasma guns and captain with a plasma pistol. No Upgrades besides those and Chimera. I can not count how many MCs, Marines, and light vehicles have died to plasma driveby. BS 4 = most of the shots hitting. Sure I lose some but hey shooty is the way of the IG.

[Forteller]

Consider this then:

Ignore the close combat aspect of a command squad:

At 115 points,of base cost + added 25 points they can equip at 140 points meltaguns for the whole squad,
they are in essence,a CHEAPER more DURABLE version of a sternguard, with MORE combat options.

That was point A,

Now consider this,if you re making a fully drop pod army,a shrike CS with them storm shields etc,can assault along with your rest of your army drop podding,keeping an important unit busy till you mop up the rest.

Some following stupid questions:

Search as i may i can't find the option in GW to buy command squads on bikes,
only regular bike squads,how can i make my opponent know its a command squad?

The wording on the command squad text reads and i quote directly
Any Veteran may replace his chainsword AND/OR bolt pistol with:

Plasma gun,power sword or lightning claw
Meltagun

Finally something i ve been toying with in my head:

Drop Pod Army:

4 Drop Pods,

1st Turn 2 drop pods with command squads fall down,durable enough to survive to the next round if the opponent is deployed,big trouble for the op if he isnt,

2nd Turn 2 Drop pods with sternguards fall,the cs engage in close combat with lame infantry, 15 sternguards in tactical teams engage vehicles and monstrous creatures with combis.

I guess also two tacticals in rhinos for objective control.

Anyhow thanks for the feedback as always:

[Squirrel_Fish]

Consider this then:

Ignore the close combat aspect of a command squad:

At 115 points,of base cost + added 25 points they can equip at 140 points meltaguns for the whole squad,
they are in essence,a CHEAPER more DURABLE version of a sternguard, with MORE combat options.



Your numbers are off. Meltaguns for the command squad veterans will cost you 40 points (you cannot give the Apothecary any additional equipment). So a Command Squad with 4 Meltaguns will run you 155 points. I can't see how this is unit has more combat options than a 5 Man Sternguard Squad with 5 Combi-Meltas (150 points). The Command Squad is stuck at shooting up to 12" ALL the time and is effectively stuck to anti-tank duties where the Sternguard are made the be the ultimate flexible shooting unit due to their special ammo and combi-weapons.




Now consider this,if you re making a fully drop pod army,a shrike CS with them storm shields etc,can assault along with your rest of your army drop podding,keeping an important unit busy till you mop up the rest.



You cannot assault out of a Drop Pod and kitting out the Command Squad to survive a round of shooting like you say makes the unit absurdly expensive. Power Weapons and Storm Shields on all the Vets ends up costing you 235 points - that is 47 points per model, one point more than Grey Knight Terminators!!! That's not including the drop pod or a Standard (One of the more important upgrades, in my opinion.)




Search as i may i can't find the option in GW to buy command squads on bikes,
only regular bike squads,how can i make my opponent know its a command squad?



Page 132 of Codex: Space Marines, under the Command Squad listing. "The entire squad may ride Space marine bikes....X points". You would have to convert a Command Squad to be mounted on bikes and it's a reasonably costly endeavor to do this.



Finally something i ve been toying with in my head:

Drop Pod Army:

4 Drop Pods,

1st Turn 2 drop pods with command squads fall down,durable enough to survive to the next round if the opponent is deployed,big trouble for the op if he isnt,

2nd Turn 2 Drop pods with sternguards fall,the cs engage in close combat with lame infantry, 15 sternguards in tactical teams engage vehicles and monstrous creatures with combis.

I guess also two tacticals in rhinos for objective control.

Anyhow thanks for the feedback as always:

While this could work, think about how many points you're spending there. Two captains, two decked out command squads, 15 Sternguard Veterans, 2 tactical Squads, 2 Rhinos and 4 drop Pods. While Space marine armies are generally outnumbered, your case will be rather dramatic.



While I give you credit for trying to breathe life into an uncommon unit, I think you're trying a little hard to justify that they are a great unit. In order to make them almost as effective as the next closest specialist unit, you're spending a lot more points for a less effective unit. If you're looking for a shooting unit, Sternguard are better. If you're looking for an assault unit, Assault Terminators are better.

However, I feel that the role of the Command Squad should not be a dedicated one, but instead a mixed unit that can act as backup for any of your other specialist units. I would recommend something like this:

Command Squad
- Company Champion
- Power Weapon
- Plasma Gun x2
- Bikes
- Company Standard
Total: 280

This gives you a decent mix of assault and shooting capabilities. If you want, you can drop the Company Standard to throw some melta-bombs into the mix to allow for some anti-tank duty. On the charge, this gives you 18 attacks, 8 of which ignore armor saves, as well as 3 Tl-Bolters and 2 Plasma guns to muck up any infantry in shooting. Plasma guns work particularly well with Command Squads due to FNP.

However, you cannot throw this unit at any specialist unit and expect to come out on top. What keeps this unit alive is T4(5) and 3+ armor save with FNP. Power Weapons or Fists make these guys weep and should be avoided if possible.

Cheers,
Squirrel_Fish

[Anaximander]

Finally something i ve been toying with in my head:

Drop Pod Army:

4 Drop Pods,

1st Turn 2 drop pods with command squads fall down,durable enough to survive to the next round if the opponent is deployed,big trouble for the op if he isnt,

2nd Turn 2 Drop pods with sternguards fall,the cs engage in close combat with lame infantry, 15 sternguards in tactical teams engage vehicles and monstrous creatures with combis.

I guess also two tacticals in rhinos for objective control.

Anyhow thanks for the feedback as always:

You are guaranteed the two drop pods on turn 1. You cannot rely on the pods arriving turn 2. If you play v IG with their character who reduces your reserve rolls, you are quite likely to arrive very/too late.

IMO basing your strategy on something as undependable as this is risky.

I am toying with the idea of 3 drop pods in my SM army.
Turn 1 - 2 pods arrive in my opponent's lines with ironclad dreads, causing havoc while the majority of my army is already in action.
Turn whenever - the last pod arrives with a tac squad, either for late game objective grabbing, or bolstering my defence.

Now this seems a more dependable use of pods, allowing for the uncertainty of the time the second wave arrives. Comments appreciated.

[mercer]

As many have said, assault terminators are better. Your captain really belongs in close combat. Take a command squad and you have no power weapons or storm shields, throw that wargear on and comes to more than terminators. Feel no pain isn't much of a benefit when the captain and command squad is against elite choices, which most likely will carry armour denying weapons.

Command squads are just for background and ok for biker squads.

[Forteller]

CAN ANYONE explain the whole concept of biker command squads?I am really interested,please tell me :Tactics,playstyle, loadout and things to watch out for. Its really important cause i am asking a friend to give me his bikers for a conversion :) Thanks

[person person]

I play guard and go the other way. I do a shooty command squad, 4 plasma guns and captain with a plasma pistol. No Upgrades besides those and Chimera.

My favourite type of command squad.

Hit & run unsuspecting Nobz and Fexes, although I've died trying too.

[exoduster18]

Ok, so if one was to use a Command Squad, how would one equip them then? Would you use the standard Veterans that GW sells? Or would you convert/equip them with other weapons/wargear?

[DarkLink]

CAN ANYONE explain the whole concept of biker command squads?I am really interested,please tell me :Tactics,playstyle, loadout and things to watch out for. Its really important cause i am asking a friend to give me his bikers for a conversion :) Thanks

One of our local players uses them sometimes, with fair success. He has a biker army, and gives the CS storm shields and a few power weapons, using them as a durable CC unit. It helps keep certain deadly units away from the rest of his bikes for a while.