Last minute list changes: acceptable or not?

[Duke]

So I got to thinking a minute ago: (yes, it happens from time to time)

When I go to my FLGS to play I generally bring one list with me. When I ask for a game some people who have their models at the store, or who brought a large collection will make a list on the spot. Often times they build a list to specifically counter my list (anti-Meq, etc.)

What my discussion question was, is this: Is it wrong for me to then change my list a bit to be better against my new opponent (For example, putting null zone on a librarian at the last minute against daemons or switching out same cost heavy weapons) Or should you play the list you brought and take it on the chin if your opponent builds their list to beat you.

If it is ok to change your own list after you know your opponent, how much? and when?

This may be a lame question, but I though it was an interesting ethical discussion.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

I think it's a question of shared expectations. My group does something like what you describe, but everybody knows it up front, so there's no "gotcha" factor.

The way my group plays it, we tell our opponents which army we'll be playing, and then we select our lists. Some folks, of course, choose to basically play the same list all or most of the time, and that's fine. So long as everybody remembers to bring their lists ahead of time, it works pretty well for us.

Of course, knowing that this is how we play, folks tend to bring more models than they need for a single list, and we're pretty liberal with proxying, which means it's rare that somebody is caught at a disadvantage. We don't want somebody to show up with a single list, find out the way we play, and then be stuck with less flexibility than the rest of us. That's only fair.

In my opinion, both players should have equal flexibility. If your opponent finds out you're playing space marines and selects an anti-marine list (or what he thinks will be an anti-marine list), then he should tell you that he's playing daemons and allow you to select an anti-daemon list.

[Rapture]

I think that there are different ways to play. Having a set list is a little better for me personally. Showing up and not being tuned perfectly to the enemy you are facing is more fun and more challenging.

However, as long as everyone is on the same page it just comes down to how people want to play. Being able to make last minute swaps in lists reduces the effect of chance to some degree.

[Duke]

Sometimes it bugs me when people build lists that are tooled to beat you... What I mean is that it isn't just to beat MEQ, it is tooled to beat my army specifically... Though it is very dependent on attitudes and expectations.

If I am going to the store for a night I usually bring a 1500 point list with two 500 point side lists (One= anti horde, one= anti heavy infantry (MEQ)) Thus I can play just about anyone at 2000 pts, but it isn't a list to beat them specifically.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Building lists to beat specific lists is problematic, I think, because you can't make it equal-opportunity. I build a list to beat your list. You then have a chance to build a list to beat my list, which beat your list of five minutes ago. But now it's unfair for me, so I build a list to beat your list, which beat my list of five minutes ago. But then you need a chance to build a list to beat my ...

Declaring which army you'll be playing and building a list to beat that at least puts both players on an equal footing, and still raises the possibility that a specifically tuned list will get pasted. If you build an "anti-ork" list that doesn't have any nob solutions, for instance, you might find yourself regretting it. Without knowing which build of a specific army your opponent will pick, there's still a large incentive to build middle-of-the-road type lists.

[Duke]

Right, I think that is the way I am thinking... Especially the "I beat your list of 5 minutes ago," lol.

In my opinion it doesn't matter as much if someone builds an anti list like "Anti-Marines," but it gets sad sometimes when someone brings a "anti-Dukes- 2000 pt marines list," especially when you brought an all comer.

I almost think that if you want to avoid it then probably tell you opponent what codex your using and don't let them see your list till right before you start and their list is chosen.

Duke

[ForeverHero]

Actually, when I play, I usually have a one list mentality for the day; bring a single 1850 list to play all day. The only time I’ll make changes is to subtract items to make a smaller list for say a 1500pt. game. I don’t adjust wargear or swap out a unit for something better, just remove a unit or two until I’m below 1500pts.
This way I don’t have to carry a bunch of extra models that I might not use that day.

I used to create three lists for the day but got tired of bringing a bunch of models that just sat in the case and didn’t get used all day.

[Nabterayl]

I will sometimes bring a list that I think is tuned to beat a particular player's play style. For instance, if I know that I'm playing my friend Tim and that he's going to be playing Imperial Guard, I might build a certain way, based on what I know of my friend's tactical style, and he might do the same. We don't know what each other's lists will be, but we know that we tend to play certain ways, and learning and adapting to each other's tactical styles is part of the fun for us. It also encourages us to think outside of our comfort zones lest we become too predictable, which we think is a good thing.

[Lerra]

I don't bother to bring a written list for friendly games, but I play in a group where we all trust eachother, so a written list isn't expected. It's standard practice to play all-comers lists, none tailored against a specific opponent. It works well for our group. We play WYSIWYG and we know eachothers' armies well enough that a pre-written list is not needed.

[sirrouga]

I never bring a pre-made list to my friendly club nights but then I don't make lists made to specifically made to counter the other player either so people don't mind that I do that.

I'm quick in creating lists (which isn't that hard to do when you play necrons) and I also let the other player see what I'm bringing and let them make any changes as well. Especially since many people fail to realize that meltas aren't instant death for Monoliths and that AP1 and AP2 do not affect We'll Be Back, which is more due to people not knowing how my army works than anything.

I also like to bring units that I'm in the "mood" for. Sometimes I want to play my Wraith wing and other times I just can't stand those guys. While it is not that big for my necrons, my orks were sometimes Bad Moons with dreads and zzap guns and other times were Evil Sunz with Buggies and Trukks. I like playing "the entire army" and not just a single list all the time if that makes sense at all.

Of course, I am a more casual player more interested in just for fun builds than outright winning and try to play opponents with a similar mind set. But in more "serious" groups, tournaments, or campaigns I wouldn't press my luck too much with changing lists at the last moment all the time.

[Melissia]

Personally, I hate it when people intentionally change their lists-- sometimes drastically-- to tailor their armies to fight whatever army they are facing that day.

[Culven]

I play in quite a few tournaments, so I am always using all-comers lists since I am trying to hone my competative army lists and tactics. Occationally, I have run into someone who has asked what I will be playing before they write their list. I typically use another military tactic against these players: misinformation. If I'm feeling generous, I will list the six 40K armies I own, and let them decide what they want to field. However, the tailors are rare, and most players in my group will have an army list pre-made when they show up to play, so it isn't an issue.

[Xas]

we usually play the folowing:

tell your army book, build your list, (swap lists), play on.

all E5 books have so much variety that building an "anti x" list will get your *** handed to you by a "yz-list".

if you both have a nearly full collection (10k armies for apok, balanced ones mean you can build any 2k list you want) it is a nice meta-game sport to guess which army your oponent will bring.

I once nailed a marine player 3 times in a row because I brought ndizilla when he had anti-swarm and swarm when he had anti-zilla :D.

sometimes 40k is like playing stone-scissor-paper ^^

[MajorSoB]

I most often play a middle of the road, take on all comers list but I cannot say that I have not engaged in list swapping either. For years I showed up at club tournaments ( where we have encouraged fun and fair gaming ) only to see someone shows up with an OTT list without any attention to painting, building their models, fluff, etc. This has changed my outlook. For casual play I will show up with a premade list and play whomever shows, but if I show up at a tournament now and there are several "a-hole" lists being used I am not above putting my middle of the road list to the bottom of my case and use the "lets make everyone game miserable" list.

[eagleboy7259]

I know for my store most people bring lists but I will not turn down a player just because he doesn't have a list typed up. The people who tend to show up without lists are the same people who aren't really "into" the hobby. Not to say they don't enjoy it but its usually "that guy" who has the plasma pistol & power sword veteran sergeants and predator annihilators and just collects without consideration of how the whole thing might fight together into a list. They typically don't even have enough models to make a tailored out to get you list. However if its a seasoned hobbyist with a large collection that he brought to the store then I'm gonna call shanangins when he busts out 30 melta weapons vs. my Mech list.

[Fizyx]

I draw the line when my army is on the table.

For instance, I will definitely make an anti-MEQ list if I know I am playing marines. However, if a SM player sees me drop my army on the table and changes his list to suit exactly what I am playing, I will call shenanigans. I don't see anything wrong with building anti-x armies, especially with the variety of armies you can play now. However, there is a HUGE difference between building an anti-MEQ army and an anti-Jim army. Unless, of course, they bring that army with them.

I'm not terribly consistent in my army composition any longer :D

[DarkLink]

Unless you and your opponent agree to use take all comers lists, there shouldn't be any problem making an anti-ork list when playing against orks, for example.

[Morgrim]

I tend to play games that are arranged beforehand, so in theory I could tailor my lists. In practice, running my standard 1k list involves all bar 3 assembled models I own, so pretty much the only tweaking I can do involves swapping a few bits of wargear and then adding or subtracting a few warriors to get the points right. I'm still trying to figure out what wargear works in what situation. And I have yet to figure out anything that will down Dante, since my dark lance shooters don't seem able to hit the side of a barn... although a talos eating Mephiston was amusing.

It isn't uncommon for me to have a smaller points list for wych cult, but I rarely play it unless specifically requested since it is even less competitive than kabal and I have to do a touch of proxying (ok, archon is now an archite sort of thing).

I paint and convert in the store more than I battle, so there have been occasions when I've done a quick odd numbered (generally a few hundred, definitely under 500, and occasionally mutual changes to organisation charts) on the spot lists composed of 'whatever I happen to have in my case at the time and doesn't have greenstuff still drying'. Again, they don't exactly lend themselves to excessive tailoring. Pretty much all I can do is decide if I'm using agonisers or not (and whether clearly different coloured raiders have dark lance or distinigrators, but only by agreement).

[BuFFo]

If it is ok to change your own list after you know your opponent, how much? and when?

If you want to play by the rules, well, the rules don't cover this situation. There is no rule forcing you to make a list at home or at the store... Hours before a game, or minutes before hand...

For example, at my local gaming store, no one, and I mean no one, ever ever ever writes a list and brings it to the store. I used ot years ago, but I stopped for no real reason... Everyone pairs up at the store, knows their opposing race before hand, and makes a list quickly before the game. Its normal for everyone and no one ever ever ever ever ever ever ever has brought up the idea of 'meta gaming' or 'being unfair'.

As far as ethics are concerned, if you feel guilty about it, then don't do it!

Its that simple.

[Lord Azaghul]

It think it mostly depends upon the game. Every game night in my club, I show up with a 1750 or 2k list. I really can’t remember the last time modified my the list I previously created other then to scale it up or down.

I’ve noticed that most people who feel the need to ‘cater’ a list aren’t strong all comers players. That being said. If your opponents suddenly realized you’re playing mech guard then started building/adding speical characters, and loads of nob bikers…then I can see a last minite change or two, especially if your trying something new that night. Go with what you know works, there is no hard fast rule against it.

I find most people do better by going with what they know – it’s the same reason why that one guy (every group/store has one) who seems to jump ship and buy whatever army beat him last game!

Besides sticking to the all-comers I’ve already built means I can get right to playing!

[Anggul]

If he just built a list there and then to beat yours, there's no shame in you changing a few things. After all, all you're doing is changing some upgrades, he's composing his whole army against you.