Adepta Sororitas 1st Impressions

[Bigred]

Reecius over at Frontline is VERY impressed:

Sisters 1st Impressions (http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/10/18/sisters-of-battle-first-impressions/)

excerpt

First of all, there are some big changes! This isn’t just a digital version of the book or a supplement, this is a full blown codex with a color section, fluff, new wargear, points value, rules, etc.

Second of all: Sisters are good. Really good and they are gong to upset the hell out of the meta.
Why?

Comdemnor Boltguns. Holy. Crap. This 10pt weapon is 24″, assault 1, Strength 5, AP-, and, wait for it, any unit HIT by this weapons suffers Perils in the Warp….my god! Screamerstar just crapped its pants. So did the Seercouncil, and any Psychic model in the game. Great Gonzo’s nose that is crazy! Any character with access to the Ranged Weapons section of the armory can take these weapons and that is pretty much every Character (including sarges) and Command Squads can pack 5! Wow. That just made every psyker in the game a liability if you find yourself facing Sisters. Eldar get some cushion with Ghost Helms, and FnP still helps, but these are straight deadly. Even overwatch is scary! Taking these liberally throughout an army is going to just shut down enemy psykers.

Anyone here have it? Let's hear your own impressions. Did GW Digital slip in a gamechanger under everyone's noses?

[Kyban]

Well, that's one way to clear out the stock of old sisters models! :p

It's probably a once per game thing like the one in the Grey Knights book that shares the same profile.

[DarkLink]

Edit: They're a type of combi-weapon, so it is once per game. Not that you need to inflict many Perils to change the game.

[Learn2Eel]

Well, that's one way to clear out the stock of old sisters models! :p

It's probably a once per game thing like the one in the Grey Knights book that shares the same profile.

I hit a Screamerstar with two Condemnor Boltgun shots. All two-four Heralds die, regardless of the whole "2+ re-rollable invulnerable save" shenanigans. That's already about 500 points dead for your opponent, and another 200 or so when the Screamers lose their psychic buffs. And this is from two 10 point upgrades on my basic squad sergeants - Veteran Superiors. Pretty much any psyker in the game is dead meat against Sisters of Battle.

[PureFodder]

It's a combi-weapons, so once per game, but every squad leader can take them.

Also of note - it works against units with the brotherhood of psykers rule (ie. Grey Knights).

[daboarder]

Reece didn't say anything about once per game, and I seriously doubt he would not mention that if it were there. Regardless, you don't need many actual shots with it. A couple of hits, and you're down a Herald or Librarian, and that's that.

Not to have a go at reecius, but BnC is saying that its once per game like a combi weapon....still has potential, but maybe a bit pricey

[eldargal]

It is once per game, it is the combi-weapon alternate mode. Still excellent as it is cheap and abundant. Pretty much every squad but Seraphim and Repentia can have their Sister Superior take one.

[Renegade]

If the bolter babes get some love and become popular, I may reheat a web campaign I started writing up. With those rules I see no reason why they would start becoming more popular, just the limitation of the range.

Anyone got £500 they could loan me?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1190001a&prodId=prod2270004a

[chicop76]

Wow. I always wanted to use that combi weapon and they have made it much better.

I always wanted a full sister army, but dropping the cost of units and raising the model price kills that. I already have a Canoness, 2 sister squads, repentia, 2 exorcist, a possible 2 immolators, and two rhinos. Oh and Celestine and it's hard for me to break 1k. I wished I completed the army when it was only 50 dollars for a squad of 10, but waiting screwed me with sisters. With guard I came out cheaper when I waited with them.

When I make my female guards men I will probably use them as sisters as well.

[DarkLink]

Not to have a go at reecius, but BnC is saying that its once per game like a combi weapon....still has potential, but maybe a bit pricey

Yeah, I fixed that.

[Sly]

I hit a Screamerstar with two Condemnor Boltgun shots. All two-four Heralds die, regardless of the whole "2+ re-rollable invulnerable save" shenanigans. That's already about 500 points dead for your opponent, and another 200 or so when the Screamers lose their psychic buffs. And this is from two 10 point upgrades on my basic squad sergeants - Veteran Superiors. Pretty much any psyker in the game is dead meat against Sisters of Battle.

To be fair, however, I think that Screamerstar is going to keep an alternate mode where the Heralds hang back with Horrors squads until some of bolts are spent, giving you only one Psyker per squad to hi. I certainly wouldn't set up all 4 in one unit if facing Sororitas. It will certainly hurt Screamerstar as its usual Deathstar configuration won't be effective until the bolts are spent, but it's not as if Heralds, Horrors, and Screamers are bad units on their own. If you need to upgrade first to a Veteran sergeant in each squad in order to take that Condemnor boltgun, for 6 shots you're spending about 120 or so points, which hit 4 times and kill 2 Heralds (plus 4 Horrors if they're holed up in Horror squads). That's solid given that each Herald is around 130 pts, but it's not an Auto-Win button.

[DarkLink]

You only really need to kill the Herald with the Grimnoire. Once you've done that, it's not a particularly difficult unit to deal with anymore. It's the rerollable 2++ that makes it so annoying.

[Sly]

"If the unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any other attack that specifically targets Psykers, it is resolved against the character, if there is one (and he is alive), or against a random, non-character model in the unit, if there is no character (or he is dead)."

That is from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which the Horrors have. It seems that it clearly indicates that the squad upgrade leader (if any) eats the Perils, then after that, you start killing Horrors (since they are the only non-character models in the unit). So you can clearly hide the Heralds inside a Horror squad.

I think that I'd just set up a backup squad of 16-20 Horrors in a Screamerstar list, and drop the Horrors into it if I'm facing Sororitas. At this point they can either run the Horrors as the Heraldstar unit (with Forewarning/Grimoire), or try to protect them a bit by keeping them at max range (remember that Sororitas don't really have much long-range anti-infantry, they would have to close to Flamer range to really start threatening a lot of Horrors) while still using Forewarning/Grimoire on the Screamers unit even if they don't have the Heralds.

In the end, I think that a good Daemons player would still make it competitive, though clearly it's a setback for the list.

[Redhat88]

Hurray for Sisters! Seems like they've gotten a well deserved major update. Tell me though, why wasn't something like this possible for Black Templars??? Would a Legion style anti-psycher marine army truly not have a spot?

[Lord Krungharr]

If another model had the Grimoire, they'd have to focus on killing that first, and in general a Herald shouldn't have the Grimoire, as the bearer cannot be benefited from it.

Furthermore, Screamers are not bad on their own. Mainly they provide an 18 wound super fast meat-shield for the Heralds. I'm also very unimpressed with psychic shooting that's not AP3 or better, it's been shut down plenty of times against me, and seems like all the stuff I want to target with it has plenty of toughness and good armor saves. So I wouldn't mind running just the Screamers on occasion. They're plenty fast to assault those units with the Condemnor bolters so they can't shoot anything!

Also, how about Burning Chariots? Those provide (albeit crappy) protection for a Herald of Tzeentch. Can't target passengers! Of course plain bolters could take it out; soooo crappy.

Do the Sisters of Battle have psykers at all? I always liked that pipe organ tank.

[DarkLink]

That is from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which the Horrors have.

Assault it, and that unit becomes useless for the rest of the game. Screamer's close combat abilities makes that deathstar work.

[chicop76]

Ok.

After thinking and looking at my daemon list I realized that I can simply put my true names in a khorne hound squad with my khorne herald as the bearer. At first I was going to try to adt fkr the just in case, but the combi weapon isn't a huge factor against almost 40 daemonettes and 20 hounds.

I am thinking of adding screamers to my army as well. Which means only Fateweaver and one Tzeentch herald is the onky two who will worry about the combi weapon.

It does however deter me even more to do a mono tzeentch list if a decent amount of models have the anti-psyker weapon.

I think overall Grey Knights should worry about it more than Daemons should.

As a side note I am not making my Slaanech herald into a psyker.

[Aegis]

For squads of psyker's that lack the "Brotherhood of psykers," how are the perils handled? Would every psyker in the unit be hit with a perils, or does it default to the manner in which the brotherhood operates. For that matter, are there units of psyker's that lack that rule, as that would make this question a moot one...

[Kyban]

For squads of psyker's that lack the "Brotherhood of psykers," how are the perils handled? Would every psyker in the unit be hit with a perils, or does it default to the manner in which the brotherhood operates. For that matter, are there units of psyker's that lack that rule, as that would make this question a moot one...

I'm pretty sure most of them describe how they take the perils, GK squads act like Brotherhood, IG PBS takes d3 if the overseer is alive or all if not, GK inquisitorial squad psykers all die.

[daboarder]

Ok.

After thinking and looking at my daemon list I realized that I can simply put my true names in a khorne hound squad with my khorne herald as the bearer. At first I was going to try to adt fkr the just in case, but the combi weapon isn't a huge factor against almost 40 daemonettes and 20 hounds.

I am thinking of adding screamers to my army as well. Which means only Fateweaver and one Tzeentch herald is the onky two who will worry about the combi weapon.

It does however deter me even more to do a mono tzeentch list if a decent amount of models have the anti-psyker weapon.

I think overall Grey Knights should worry about it more than Daemons should.

As a side note I am not making my Slaanech herald into a psyker.

thats not going to help against a condemnor, the unit takes a perils. which ,means regardless of how large your meatshield is that psyker is taking a wound.

[chicop76]

thats not going to help against a condemnor, the unit takes a perils. which ,means regardless of how large your meatshield is that psyker is taking a wound.

Only thing taking perils is my herald and Fateweaver. Which my khorne non psyker herald would have true names and laugh at the combi weapon. If the sisters can ground big bird or had skyfire with those weapons than I might be actually worried about it.

[daboarder]

Oh right.. well yeah. But no ones taking the condemor ti kill heralds In general. They will take it to ensure force multipliers are murdered with no save on a simple to hit roll....

[Sly]

Assault it, and that unit becomes useless for the rest of the game. Screamer's close combat abilities makes that deathstar work.

That's true, but you do generally have the Screamers unit in front of it, and anything will need to get through the 2++ re-rollable Screamers (albeit without Heralds) in order to get to the Horrorshow. Plus the Heavy Support (either DPs or Soul Grinders). And given that we're talking about Sororitas... they're not the army that's going to send a lot of units forward fast in order to get into assault. I doubt it will be a major issue to worry about... I'd be more annoyed about just having to move the Heralds into the Horror squad, wasting the 100 pts spent on giving them Disks, and on having to keep the Screamers close enough to the Horrors to get buffed. In this situation, the Condemnors are really just restricting the Daemon player's choices in deployment and movement rather than setting them up to have their main unit tied up in assault.

[dr.insanotron]

I am wondering why everyone seems to think that the heralds in the screamer star unit would be picked out. Where are you getting this from?
The IC psyker rule does not transfer to a unit you join and screamers don't have the brother hood of psykers rule so you are not shooting a unit that would qualify for the perils effect.

How are you guys coming to this conclusion? I don't see it that way

[daboarder]

how many units does a screamer star with herald count as.

1

therfore the unit takes a perils if it has a psker....herald is a psyker, part of the unit, takes a perils.....

[dr.insanotron]

Would you mind sighting the rules you are using for this conclusion please

[dr.insanotron]

My point is this. When you shoot at the Screamer Star with the condemnor you are shooting at a unit with a psyker in it not a unit with the brootherhood of psykers rule or the psyker rule, due to the fact that psyker is not a rule that is transferred to a unit a IC joins.
Just like a IC with the It Will Not Die USR joins a unit he doesnt give that rule to the unit therefore it is not a unit with the It Will Not Die rule. See my point

[daboarder]

My point is this. When you shoot at the Screamer Star with the condemnor you are shooting at a unit with a psyker in it not a unit with the brootherhood of psykers rule or the psyker rule, due to the fact that psyker is not a rule that is transferred to a unit a IC joins.
Just like a IC with the It Will Not Die USR joins a unit he doesnt give that rule to the unit therefore it is not a unit with the It Will Not Die rule. See my point


While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the
unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.


Any unit with the Pskyer, Brotherhood of Psykers or Psychic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

Unit takes a condemnor hit, does it have the "psker" special rule anywhere in the unit? yup because the character has "psyker", is it a rules purpose? yup, as such he eats the perils. He doesn't stop being a psyker when he joins the unit

Is it poorly worded? yeah, but most of this codex is. still it doesn't take alot to know what they mean.

[dr.insanotron]

Actually I don't think they ever intended for it to snipe out a psyker from a unit unless it actually hits the psyker. Just like a mind strike missile and Condemnor Boltgun from the grey knight actually has to hit the psyker to cause him to take a perils of the warp

[dr.insanotron]

Also if you are saying that the unit counts as a unit with the psyker rule then what rule are you using to say that the IC psyker is the one that takes the perils of the warp, because there is no rule that says only psyker can take a perils of the warp wound. All it says in the perils of the warp section refers to when he rolls a double 1's or double 6's

[eldargal]

You know you can edit posts right?

There are a few units that have listed in their special rules a rule which is appended with (_____ only), meaning only that model gets the benefit but the unit still has it. I imagine this is a similar situation. When an IC joins a unit it forms one unit, their Psyker rule is added to the list of SRs the unit has but only the specific model gets access to it. A unit with a Psyker does have the Psyker rule in it, but only the model with it gains the benefit of it. The Condemnor shot rule states that units with the rule take a Perils test, not models. So a unit with a Psyker would have to take the test. It is poorly worded, I wouldn't blame anyone for rolling a dice to decide it each game.

[dr.insanotron]

@ eldargirl you have a good point.
But the main point I want to make is that there is no rule that allows you to force your opponent to put the perils on his attached IC with this new weapon as it is written now. It says the unit with the psyker rule takes a perils not the model in the unit with the rule

[Nabterayl]

@ eldargirl you have a good point.
But the main point I want to make is that there is no rule that allows you to force your opponent to put the perils on his attached IC with this new weapon as it is written now. It says the unit with the psyker rule takes a perils not the model in the unit with the rule
Well ... you're right that there is no rule that tells us what to do when a unit has to suffer the Perils of the Warp. I'm not sure I buy that the most reasonable interpretation is that nothing happens.

[Tynskel]

Well ... you're right that there is no rule that tells us what to do when a unit has to suffer the Perils of the Warp. I'm not sure I buy that the most reasonable interpretation is that nothing happens.

Yeah... The warp is only interested in those that commune with the warp...

[eldargal]

Yeah... The warp is only interested in those that commune with the warp...

No it isn't.

[dr.insanotron]

I'm not saying nothing happens. I'm saying the unit takes a perils of the warp wound and a model will take a wound with no saves of any kind, I just don't see how everyone thinks it is automatically the Sorcerer/Libby

[Nabterayl]

the unit takes a perils of the warp wound and a model will take a wound with no saves of any kind
Well, on what basis do you say even that much?

[okrbot]

Has anyone looked at the actual perils rule yet though? The hit from the gun causes an auto peril right? The rule says

If the roll for the Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 (whether the test was passed or not) this indicates that something horrible has happened to the Psyker...The Psyker immediately suffers 1 Wound with no save of any kind allowed...

Since no power is going off you can suppose that the hit from the weapon is causing the same effect as a roll of a double 6
In a unit of five non psykers and one psyker the affect of the "perils hit" would be resolved against any model in the unit with the psyker special rule and the hit/wound would be resolved against the closest model to the firer. the Perils rule presupposes that it can only affect Psykers.

in a squad that has the brotherhood of psyker rule and also contains an IC w/the psyker special rule neither confer their special rule on each other but he IC acts as a Character in that unit per the IC rules

"While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows he rules for characters."

the brotherhood of psyker rule says that the perils is resolved against the character if there is one or if not against a random non character model in the unit. If there's an IC psyker and a character psyker the unit essentially has two psyker characters that the perils would have to be resolved against before you can take it on the griblys. As to which of the two it goes on first well that's some thing to randomize w/a dice off or go off of whomever is closer to the shooter.

separate question. Since you can apparently look out sir a Farseer's Mind War, would you be able to have an IC in a brotherhood of psykers LOS one of these bolt gun shots?

[zerorunner]

The basis that the Sisters are witch hunters should pretty much let you know they are targeting the psyker in the unit. Yes, the rule is poorly worded, but when you consider the witch hunter bit, the intention becomes clearer.

[Tynskel]

Has anyone looked at the actual perils rule yet though? The hit from the gun causes an auto peril right? The rule says

If the roll for the Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 (whether the test was passed or not) this indicates that something horrible has happened to the Psyker...The Psyker immediately suffers 1 Wound with no save of any kind allowed...

Since no power is going off you can suppose that the hit from the weapon is causing the same effect as a roll of a double 6
In a unit of five non psykers and one psyker the affect of the "perils hit" would be resolved against any model in the unit with the psyker special rule and the hit/wound would be resolved against the closest model to the firer. the Perils rule presupposes that it can only affect Psykers.

in a squad that has the brotherhood of psyker rule and also contains an IC w/the psyker special rule neither confer their special rule on each other but he IC acts as a Character in that unit per the IC rules

"While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows he rules for characters."

the brotherhood of psyker rule says that the perils is resolved against the character if there is one or if not against a random non character model in the unit. If there's an IC psyker and a character psyker the unit essentially has two psyker characters that the perils would have to be resolved against before you can take it on the griblys. As to which of the two it goes on first well that's some thing to randomize w/a dice off or go off of whomever is closer to the shooter.

separate question. Since you can apparently look out sir a Farseer's Mind War, would you be able to have an IC in a brotherhood of psykers LOS one of these bolt gun shots?

No, you can't have someone Look out Sir for a Farseer's Perils of the Warp.

Mind War is an gets 'interrupted' by the guy jumping out to save the character. whereas, perils is an outside influence attacking the psyker.

Note that the weapon has a damage profile of its own. It just has a side effect from a 'Hit'. The hit is not inflicting damage, it is triggering a special rule.

[Unscientific Postscript]

Forgive me if someone has pointed this out already, but the attack won't work so well against Eldar as it will/may do against Tzeentch. Warp charges are refilled at the start of every turn, so a Farseer will have 3 warp charges to negate 3 separate PoW attacks per turn. The attack will still work well against Spiritseers and Warlocks though. It's a pity that wraith lists suddenly got disproportionately penalised as against other Eldar builds.

[daboarder]

yup but thats 1 type of psyker, other than farseers these things are gonna murder most psykers in the game.

Imagine an allied detatchment with a cheap HQ packing a condemnor, and BSS with 2 specials and a condemnor superior and either a 3rd condemnor character (priest) (with rhino) or a Immolator, 1st turn, drive within 24 of the squad that libby is hiding in and shoot it.....POP!

odds are you've just gutted a key part of the enemy army as a lot of the competative builds are relying on psyker force multipliers.

[Solution9]

I'm at sea right now and can't get the codex till I return. Aside from the new weapon that messes up Psykers what other highlights are there to the new codex?

[Tynskel]

Faith points are gone.
Now every squad has a once per game ability (the new 'faith point').

[PRoeske]

What everybody seems to forget is the actual wording of the condemnor boltgun:


Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the 'Perils of the Warp' effects in addition to any other damage.

To me, this seems to suggest the unit needs to have 1 of those rules to actually suffer the Perils of the Warp damage.

Another important ruling in this case comes from the rulebook, page 39:


Special Rules:
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the stubborn special rule), the the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent character, and de Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rulesthat are conferred to the unit only apply as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The most important thing here is, the character's rules are not automatically conferred upon the unit. Meaning, the unit (entity being targeted by shooting) does not qualify as a psyker.

So, as far as i'm concerned this means the unit doesn't have the Psyker (or one of the other mentioned psyker-related rules) special rule and therefore wil not suffer any damage from the psi-shock special rule.

----------

More interesting: What happens when you shoot at a unit of horrors (brotherhood of psykers) containing a Herald of Tzeentch (psyker)? Most logically, the unit will lose 1 of it's members due to Perils (specified in the BoP special rule), but will the herald suffe as well?

Personally, i'd say the herals will actually lose a wound, as the unit (again, the entity being targeted) qualifies for resolving the 'psi-shock' rule.

[DarkLink]

So in your first case, the boltgun becomes essentially useless.

Yoir second case is a good point, though. But it causes a single perils, so I would allocate it to the nearest viable model, which is probably a Horror, not the Herald.

Edit: also, immolator spam is overrated. Immolators are good, but Sisters can do other cool stuff too, and light vehicle spam isnt a path to victory like it was in 5th.

[Nabterayl]

The most important thing here is, the character's rules are not automatically conferred upon the unit. Meaning, the unit (entity being targeted by shooting) does not qualify as a psyker.

So, as far as i'm concerned this means the unit doesn't have the Psyker (or one of the other mentioned psyker-related rules) special rule and therefore wil not suffer any damage from the psi-shock special rule.
I'm not sure this is the best read. For instance, this would mean that a psyker in a non-psyker unit was immune to the stake crossbow even if the stake wound was actually assigned to the psyker model, and even if the psyker model failed its save.

I'm not convinced that there is a defensible distinction in the rules between special rules held by a model and special rules held by a unit.

[PRoeske]

So in your first case, the boltgun becomes essentialy useless

Does it makes the stake crossbow useless, or does itmake the weapon reasonable for it's points? It still is a great piece of wargear against daemon princes, (most of) greater daemons, tervigons, hive tyrants, zoanthroapes, Doom of Malantai, Mantle bikeseers and the likes of those.

What i do think is another interesting case: what if you roll a '6' to hit, as the shooting player will be allowed to allocate the hit/wound. Logically i'd say you can allocate it on the Herald and thus force a Perils of the Warp on it. However, i'm able to verify this in the rules (as you normally allocate the wound, not the hit.

Cheers,

Pim

[Nabterayl]

What i do think is another interesting case: what if you roll a '6' to hit, as the shooting player will be allowed to allocate the hit/wound. Logically i'd say you can allocate it on the Herald and thus force a Perils of the Warp on it. However, i'm able to verify this in the rules (as you normally allocate the wound, not the hit.
This brings us back to the question of what it means for a unit to "have" a special rule. You're quite right that the condemnor requires the unit to "have" Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, or Psychic Pilot. On the other hand, I don't think units can be Psykers. As the Psyker rule says,

A model with this special rule is a Psyker.
So ... what do we mean by "have" in this case? If we mean that the special rule in question is attributed to the unit, as opposed to any of its constituent models, then an Independent Character with the Psyker rule, standing by itself, is immune to the condemnor. His unit doesn't have the Psyker special rule; it can't. Even though the unit consists of a single model with the Psyker rule, the unit itself doesn't have the Psyker special rule, and therefore the stake has no effect.

That doesn't seem like it can be right.

It seems to me like the better approach is to read "have" in this case as meaning, "has, or contains at least one model that has."

[PRoeske]

You're very wrong in 1 important part:

The 'not transferring of special rules to units' only applies when a character joins another unit! (Per the rule quotes above).

So a psyker on it's own is very much vulnerable to the stake crossbow's effect.

[Nabterayl]

So a psyker on it's own is very much vulnerable to the stake crossbow's effect.
What's the mechanism for this? How can the unit have the Psyker special rule when the Psyker special rule only refers to models having it?

[PRoeske]

- First, only models have rules (if there is only 1 surviving space marine, it still has They Shall Know No Fear). An entry in a codex only represents the fact of all models in that entry (not necessarily 'unit') sharing certain rule. (rulebook page: 32).

- second, single models are still considered units (rulebook page: 3).

- third, the psyker rule confers certain abilities to a model (rulebook page: 66).

Concluding from points 1 to 3, we can conclude that a single model with a certain rule is considered a Unit with that rule (or rules)

- fourth, according to rulebook page 39, Independent Character is a special rule certain models can have.

- fifth, independent characters are special because they can join (become part of) other units (excluding some exceptions).

- sixth, because certain (most) special rules in pages 32 to 43 effect models on an individual base (for example: Psyker), GW somehow had to make clear how this joining of units interacts with those special rules. Therefore they added a paragraph named 'special rules' in the Independen Character section.

- seventh, as only models with the Independent Character (unit A) rule can join other units (unit B), we can assume that the unit joined by this character remains the 'unit'.

Concluding from points 4 to 7, we can say that the unit joined by the Independen Character does not inherit his special rules (barring some exceptions). As the unit does no inherit this special rule, we can never consider this unit having this special rule, so even with a joined psyker the unit can never be considered to be 'psykers' of having the 'psyker' special rule.

[DarkLink]

Does it makes the stake crossbow useless, or does itmake the weapon reasonable for it's points? It still is a great piece of wargear against daemon princes, (most of) greater daemons, tervigons, hive tyrants, zoanthroapes, Doom of Malantai, Mantle bikeseers and the likes of those.

What i do think is another interesting case: what if you roll a '6' to hit, as the shooting player will be allowed to allocate the hit/wound. Logically i'd say you can allocate it on the Herald and thus force a Perils of the Warp on it. However, i'm able to verify this in the rules (as you normally allocate the wound, not the hit.

Cheers,

Pim

It's a combi bolter. The only reason to ever take it is only for the Perils effect. Nidz don't like it, Daemon Princes are flying anyways so they don't care too much, and Grey Knights and the Seer Council don't like it. But farseers effectively ignore it, and the vast majority of psykers are buried in units. So basically, it just screws GKs and nidz.

Edit: also, throwing out a bunch of chaff to avoid addressing Nab's question isn't an argument, it's an evasion.

[PRoeske]

I agree with you on it's li'mited uses. Further i'm convinced GW could have saved us a lot of trouble by just making their rules clear (or stating a model that has a wound allocated to it suffers PotW if a psyker), but onfortunately they didn't.

Referring my previous post, i think that is way to play it. However i know it's not 100% watertight.

Let's hope for a FAQ.

Cheers,

Pim

[edit] re:edit;
As far as i'm concerned i do answer Nab's question in points 1 to 3 in my post. Maybe i'm missing the crux in his pst, but it seems to me he is looking for a way how a single model with a certain rule can be considered a 'unit' with this rule.

[Nabterayl]

- First, only models have rules (if there is only 1 surviving space marine, it still has They Shall Know No Fear). An entry in a codex only represents the fact of all models in that entry (not necessarily 'unit') sharing certain rule. (rulebook page: 32).

- second, single models are still considered units (rulebook page: 3).

- third, the psyker rule confers certain abilities to a model (rulebook page: 66).

Concluding from points 1 to 3, we can conclude that a single model with a certain rule is considered a Unit with that rule (or rules)

It's true that according to page 3, "A single ... model ... is also considered to be a unit in its own right." However, it does not follow that because a model, as model, has a special rule, the unit that model comprises also has a special rule.

Your first claim is one I disagree with. Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, for instance, says, "A unit with this special rule counts as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker." That special rule is carried by the unit, not the models in it.

But in case it's not clear, the point I'm trying to make here is that drawing a hard line between what special rules a unit has, and what special rules the models that comprise that unit have, is specious in at least some cases. When asking whether a unit has a special rule, the analysis should not focus on whether we are looking at the unit or model level. The question should be, "How do we know?"

EDIT: Which brings us, I agree, into murky territory. I quite agree with you that this is a point where the rules are badly written and we have to muddle along with our most reasonable approach, because every approach is going to trample on one or more rules "as written." I just disagree with you on which is the most reasonable approach to take.