View Full Version : Counter Army?
Forteller
11-24-2009, 01:32 AM
Ok admittedly its my second post but hear me out,
since i was fiddling around with a pure drop pod SM army and i found it was purely a "act first then your opponent acts on what you do sorta army",i was thinking of a pure counter-attack army all coming from deep strike. I guess in order for this to be truly effective i need to put in Tigurius to make sure my deep strike arrives when i want it.
I guess i need to start with one drop pod with 10 tacticals who 'll have a teleport homer. The afformentioned Tigurius. 10 sternguards on a second pod with combi meltas, 5 scouts with teleport homer who ll be sitting in my base,objective from the start of the game with teleport homer so i can choose to either play defensively or offensively. 3 Land Speeders, 2 with 2 Heavy Flamers and 1 with 2 Multi Meltas.
I guess the point here is to have something to counter anything the opponent would throw at me anywhere in the field...
So i guess that so far it would go like
10 stern with 8 combi=290
10 tacticals=170
5 scouts=75
2 Drop Pods=70
Tigurius=230
1 x Teleport Homer=15
2 LS With 2 Heavy Flamers each= 120 (As a Squadron)
1 LS With Multi Melta=80
1 Terminator Squad with SBs=200
equals 1250
Please tell me what you think of this specific build,but first and foremost the tactics and planning of such a style of play, options etc. Is there a cookie-cutter build in this case with this in mind?
Thanks for your effort and feedback in advance...
BuFFo
11-24-2009, 02:13 AM
Any reason why you keep posting army lists in the tactics forum, and not the army list forum?
Forteller
11-24-2009, 02:40 AM
I wanna discuss the playability of the tactics under which these armies play,i merely provide a sample roster to spark and promote the discussion,in my mind i am talking tactics not army rosters,not that it doesnt help ofcourse....
Chumbalaya
11-24-2009, 06:35 AM
Generally going into reserves normally with a mobile army would be better as a reserve force.
If you're Podding, then your opponent can deploy to restrict your movement and punish you for your lack of mobility. You come in, land on hid spread out fodder, then he packs up and moves away to blow you apart in shooting out of reach of your short-ranged weapons.
If you wanted a counter attack force, look into Biker and/or Mech marines, so you can be held in reserve and move on with full firepower and stay mobile.
Something like
Captain w/ relic blade, storm shield, bike
3x Bike Squadrons-4 bikes, 2 meltas, Attack Bike w/ multi-melta
3x MM/HF Speeder
3x AC, HB Pred
Everything is mobile, everything is awfully shooty.
Forteller
11-24-2009, 08:26 AM
Strangely enough,i ve checked this concept,and while the army i presented is expensive,it still doesn't compare to a pure bike army's price, we re talking 40 dollars per 3 bikes.....the math gets dazzling.....not that i havent thought about making a "Mongol" bike army, its just that way too many people actually say that doesn't work,and that a reserve army should be only deep strike,not outflanking or reserves from table's edges....
Lord Azaghul
11-24-2009, 08:36 AM
I don't think marines have the best 'counter' army. Especially if you're running drop pods - since they are really a first strike type of unit. And with marines you really don't want to stand around, rattling a few shots at a unit, while waiting for you enemy to act upon you. Marines are a very surgical army - and seem best played aggressively.
That being said, a good player should know how to use his/her army to act and react.
I play guard. My army is designed to be defensive, and I take a very "hold the line' approach. This works very well against assult armies, and marine armies. My army can be offensive, thanks to numbers and ranged Ap3 weapons - however I struggle the most against armies that play in a similiar defensive style. Such as Tau.
Counter and react are obviously very similar concepts, but with marines I think (as other has said) mobility is the key. And bikes are probably the best option (I personally think the models look silly, and when I start a marine army I intend to avoid them).
LS: I don't see to many of these fielded in my area, so I can't speak to there effectiveness. At a glace they seem a bit expensive for armour 10.
The problem with a pod only army is that half of it has to arrive on turn one. Even with Tiggy to get the rest of it (most likely) arriving on turn 2 you're still either going to have to fight a full army with your half army or drop into open space depending on who gets first turn.
Looking specifically at what you're suggesting I think the sterngard are too expensive given I can practically get two tactical squads for that cost, the scouts aren't really adding much, landspeeders are great but I'm sceptical of the value of h. flamers on something that's only AV10. There are plenty of people who will have stories that support how good they are but my personal experience leads me to put multi meltas and sometimes assault cannons on my speeders. Tiggy is great but he's fragile and very expensive. Finally deepstriking termies aren't the greatest use of points imo, they're a little bit vulnerable on the turn they land and without storm shields they're disturbingly easy to get rid of.
Reading your list it looks very like the thinking I went through before I ended up settling on a half and half list that has worked fairly well for me in the past. I finalised on something that uses three pods, 2 with dreads (either venerable or ironclad) and one with a tactical squad. Two Rhinos with tacticals, a LRC with assault termies and a termi libby with SS then make up the rest of the points with landspeeders with MM (and assault cannons points allowing). The idea is that on turn one you're giving your opponent 3 armoured vehicles and 2 dreads to deal with. Whatever they don't kill will hurt them a lot.Then you deepstrike the remaining pod and the speeders (always 1 in a squadron for targetting) and profit.
If you're going pod only then take more pods and locator beacons, put Tiggy with the sterngard and bounce them around the board shooting stuff dead. Concentrate on taking lots of tacticals in pods with dreads and multi melta armed landspeeders to back them. Consider taking a second libby to give you another use of GoI for more mobility as you are pretty static once you land.
Forteller
11-24-2009, 09:26 AM
Cryl in a mixed deep strike,mobile army i think Vulcan would play really well,trouble is that i ve seen him played so often its like every player's "i win" button. Anyhow sternguards at least a 10 of them is a neccescity in any build imho,in a drop pod they drop on turn 2+ split into 5 and 5 and with 10 combi meltas pop two vehicles near them,heck two LRs,it dont matter,two-three of each squad will hit a vehicle and 2 will get enough in vehicle dmg roll,with +1 of meltas they ll destroy any heavy support the opponent has,i just didnt wanna get bogged down to the usual,sternguard-vulkan combo, at any point i am starting to see that unless you go full drop pod, a combination of drop pod,with probably some LR,vindis or fast skimmers is probably the next best thing,if the opposing player stays in reserve,he ll have to deal with BIG guns right on top of his face on turn 2,if he doesnt he ll have sternguards popping his precious anti-armor guns in no time,leaving time for the Vindis-LR to clear the field.
Anyhow comments 'd be appreciated as always :)
Vulcan would be lethal in any combination army as you say, I play UMs and try to stick to the characters I've got. God knows I get enough of my own chapters not to steal from others! :)
My personal experience of sterngard has been that they're a little too fragile for what you pay for them and two tacticals seems to be a better plan, they can combat squad after podding as well remember. Speeders are almost vital, they can deepstrike and assuming they survive their first turn armour killing antics they're very very mobile which is something pod armies lack once they're on the ground.
Let us know what you go with, I'm always interested to see lists similar to mine
Chumbalaya
11-24-2009, 12:15 PM
RW Battleforces make Bikes very affordable, much moreso than Pods.
Forteller
11-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Well well,since i have to adapt in a semi deep strike semi mobile army i could consider the following :
Vulkan 190=points
LR Redeemer with M.M=250 points
5 Assault Terminators=200
10 Sternguards with either 9 combi flamers or combi melta/meltaguns (They cost the same)=295
10 Tacticals=170
5 scouts=75
2 Drop Pods=70
finishes at 1250 points
for the 1500 game you could add
1 More Drop pod at=35
Switch the Scouts with a full tactical in one pod=170-75=95
1 Librarian to Drop with the first wave for Null Zone and Smite i guess=100
Mix n match so you can put 2 Deathwind Launchers in the first dropping pods=40 (remove 4 Combis ?They gonna hit anyhow with Vulkan)
Its an early list and one that is good but hell totally steers clear of my plans for what i had in mind.Basically the thought was of giving my opponent one choice,either deploy NOW and get a semi hard beating with 2 deathwinds and either lots of sterns with vehicle popping if hes playing armor,or 10 flamers if hes playing infantry for serious trouble with reroll to wounds and rapid fire from the 1 tact,or risk leaving everything in reserve,at which point i ll deploy 2 teams of tacts,and give him a "T minus 2 for nukular detonation" cause my LR will be on the way with the heavy support.Its gonna force him to choose between two bad choices,but as i said this list means that i am straying away from my intented playstyle which may or may not be a bad thing.
Other thoughts:
This one goes for a 1500 Tigurius List:
3 x 5 Assault Squads fielded as 5,5 and 5=300 points
1 x Command Squad arriving via drop pod carrying 4 melta guns and stormshields and feel no pain with 1 captain=300
1 x Tigurius=230
2 x tacticals=340
2 Drop Pods=70
Equals 1250 points
For 1500 points you 'd increase and put
1 x Assault squad ( Field them as 10 and 10 Assault squads and remove their jetpacks and drop them with pods at turn 1)=100
3 Drop Pods at=105
2 Deathwind and one Locator Beacon at=50
Basically this line of thinking works with either,dropping empty pods at turn 1 and bringing tacts through the table,bringing like 40 targets through Jetpacks and Drop pods at turn 2, OR Dropping 3 Pods with 2 full teams of assault and 1 command squad with feel no pain and 3+ inva at turn 1,and turn two shower them with 10 tacticals and 10 sternguards who ll pop vehicles while the rest will assault infantry,maybe a company banner added for good fun.At least its closer to the original idea.....
Please give me feedback :)
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