Thoughts: Cheesy or Not?/Is cheese wrong?

[Forteller]

Lo' mates,

I 've started playing warhammer like 2-3 weeks ago and i already got a nice 1500 point space marine army going about. Theres a tourney held weekly at my local shop which for november has been on 800 points and its gonna get upgraded to 1250 on December and 1750 come 2010. So far i played what i found cool and i just minded my own thing,usually fielded 2 vindis and a land raider with MotF which got changed to 2 vindis, 2 Dreads with M.M.s and an Ironclad with Drop pod,5 scouts and a librarian. Admittedly the fact that i had no troops was a disadvantage but i decided to play as if every match was anihilation and work myself up. Be it due to strangely increasing amount of Tau players or just my bad luck i had a pretty bad streak so far although i am ranking 4th as far as scoring is concerned. There is a growing trend of some people who make some lists that are, well i 'd call em cheesy but they may or may not be thats subjective, and its getting annoying.

Anyhow i 've considered just playing a 1st turn wipeout sorta army for the 1250p which seems kinda hard to counter in my head and i am wondering how it will be conceived,my thoughts so far have been:

5 Drop Pods,3 arriving on first turn

4 x 5 Sternguards with 2x5 armed with combi meltas and 2x5 armed with combi flamers, in the first two drop pods

One Librarian with Null Zone for them pesky invas and maybe Smite and 10 assault/one captain with command squad with storm shields ( Feel no Pain and Inv 3)/10 tacticals with Vulkan He'stan

2x5 tacticals dropping with the last two drop pods on turn 2+

Admittedly i worked out this list cause i felt a bit cheesed off after a local Tau player took 25 minutes to line up the laser pointer in order to shoot from a railgun going through 3 buildings to hit the nose of the tank commander of my vindicator and ofcourse i lost the afformentioned cover save and vehicle dmg roll.

Is this considered powerplaying and i ll get thrown out?:P If not any comments on the roster itself?Additions improvements?Thoughts on the matter? I 'd appreciate some feedback.

[BuFFo]

If your list follows the Force Organization rules for your local Tourneys, then you are not being 'cheesy' and you won't get thrown out.

There is no such thing as the concept of Cheesy in 40k. Only disgruntled players who either chose a 'underpowered army' or can't beat you, so they need to belittle you in a 'respectable' way, call armies Cheese.

Your list looks fine.

Best of luck to you!

[Forteller]

Agreed but my local shop prides itself on considering itself casual,even though its not, admittedly a player told me that if some eldar player fielded jetbiked seer council warlocks he 'd have to find another shop to play in :P I guess they re trying to protect most of the young' ones who re just getting started,however these are also the most competitive players which admittedly is kinda weird, i didn't know 15 year olds were so bloodthirsty....

[Melissia]

So you had a memory fart where you forgot what it was like being surrounded by fifteen year olds?

[Forteller]

Back in my day,YOUNGSTERS knew to respect their elders! Plus we had better insurance coverage and lower taxes n' whatnot!

[SombreBrotherhood]

I'm having a little bit of trouble deciphering that list...and if what I've deciphered is correct, you've far exceeded your points limit. If you tried to play my 1250 points with your 1300+ I'd be a tad miffed. Also, this doesn't look like a legal Force Org. Chart list - hope that's cool with your tourney organizer.

[Forteller]

I didn't want to use my crazy math skills but you force my hand child :P

20 stern equals 500 points 20 combis equals 100 points = 600
5 Drop pods= 175 points
1 librarian= 100 or
4 x 5 tacticals= 340 points

equals 1215 points

put 3x5 tacticals and you got 70 points free,enough to add Hestan who has 190 points

put 2x5 tacticals,change librarian with captain equals 205 free for command squad with storm shields and 2-3 melta guns afaik.

Bask in mah glory :p

P.S.: I am fielding 2-4 Troop Choices 1 HQ 2 Elites how is that illegal? The Base reqs are 2 Troops 1 HQ,and i got up to 3 elite slots.

[mathhammer]

In a tournament my attitude would follow the following statement....

explain to them as you field some other list that since everyone here is a lesser player than you and are afraid of "cheese" (make air quotes) your playing a weaker army as not to make them field stupid. Also offer to read the rule book to them in case they can't.

[Nabterayl]

Admittedly i worked out this list cause i felt a bit cheesed off after a local Tau player took 25 minutes to line up the laser pointer in order to shoot from a railgun going through 3 buildings to hit the nose of the tank commander of my vindicator and ofcourse i lost the afformentioned cover save and vehicle dmg roll.
For the record, pretty sure the nose of your tank commander counts as a "decorative element," and therefore not targetable. He sure as heck isn't the hull or the turret of your vehicle.

I wouldn't feel like that list is cheesy if you played it against me. Drop pod lists are a tactical problem to be solved, that's all.

[Forteller]

Elaborate by all means,i want to find weaknesses in my "unchinkable" artificer armour.....

[SombreBrotherhood]

Still not deciphering your shorthand, though I'm trying, and not just being difficult...I'm with you most of the way except...

When you say 4 x 5 tactical marines, are you saying 4 squads of 5 each? Or 20 marines for 2 squads of 10? My confusion is how they're riding into the fight, since the squads have to be 10 models to qualify for a drop pod.

10 Sternguard w/ 10 combi-meltas - 300
Drop Pod - 35
10 Sternguard w/ 10 combi-flamers - 300
Drop Pod - 35
10 Tactical Marines - 170
Drop Pod - 35
10 Tactical Marines - 170
Drop Pod - 35

We're at 1080, by my math. And only 4 drop pods.

Captain w/ Command Squad, 4x Storm Shields (because the apoth. can't have one) and Drop Pod comes to: 310
Librarian w/ 10 Assault Marines in a Drop Pod comes to: 290
And Vulkan is : 190

The addition of any of these would exceed your points limit.

[Nabterayl]

The way to deal with a list like that depends on what you've got on hand when you discover you're facing it, obviously. But the structural weaknesses in a drop pod list are that you are forced to either commit half your troops on the first turn, or drop empty pods and leave on foot the passengers that would have been in the pods. Your only tactical reserves are in the second wave of pods.

This makes drop pod lists almost exclusively proactive; that is, they have comparatively little ability to adapt to the tactical situation. They are good at seizing the initiative, but less good about retaining it.

So long as the first wave can hammer the enemy into the stone age, all well and good. Defeat the first wave of a drop pod list and you've gone a long way to defeating the list in general. It's not impossible to build a list that can deploy in a drop pod-proof castle, particularly with Tau, and their greater than usual ability to deploy one-way cover saves and 4+ armor. Or you can do the more "conventional" thing and deploy in reserve and go second. This forces the first wave to drop onto an empty board, which makes the pod player choose between allowing his forces to be defeated in detail, with only the second wave to reinforce, or else to drop defensively and thus neutralize his ability to deploy across the board.

[Forteller]

For starters my thought was

Either Vulkan Hestan with Tactical/OR Librarian with null zone /OR Captain with Command Squad

Extra points would go to deathwind missiles on the drop pods, i didn't mean to give the impression that i ll field all three at the same time.

Secondly, Admittedly i guess i ll win 80% of the engagements if i play second,question is,how can i modify this and what to exploit,if i am going to play first.Please consider feedback for this connondrum.

Appreciate it.

P.S.: Btw stupid rules question,lets say i play first,deploy empty and some semi-full drop pods on the opposing player's side, if i deploy and manage to ofcourse exactly near the end of the table,and deploy my infantry by running,if he has everything on reserve,and needs to stay AT least 1 inch away from me at all times,how will he do it with lumbering huge vehicles such as LRs? Appreciate the feedback once more and sorry if it sounds stupid,only been playing for some weeks...

[Nabterayl]

Going second won't necessarily save you if your enemy denies you targets on turn 1. Even if you go second, you still drop onto an empty board on the first turn. I don't mean to say that dropping onto an empty board is an auto-lose situation, any more than reserving your force or deploying in an anti-drop pod formation is an auto-win. My point is just that the list, by its very nature, has these structural vulnerabilities. Yes, it takes tactical skill to turn a structural vulnerability into a victory (or prevent a structural vulnerability from turning into a loss), but the fact that they're there at all - that the list has flaws which cannot be erased by its very nature - makes it non-cheesy in my book.

If you are forced to drop onto an empty board or onto a formation that is too strong to crack, then in my opinion it comes down to how mobile the enemy is. Dropping first doesn't mean you lose the initiative, just that you've been forced to expend an advantage with comparatively little gain. You still have a deployment advantage. If the enemy presents a target (or lack thereof) you don't want to drop onto, then I would consider the problem as if I had no drop pods, but got to deploy on the entire board, and ask myself how I would win under those conditions. For instance, rather than dropping your sternguard in the enemy's face and blowing him away, you could use their pods to adopt a defensive posture on the objectives you need to hold, and make the enemy come to you. Sternguard tend to be good at that, after all.

EDIT: In theory, if the points were high enough and/or the terrain was right, you could indeed drop so many drop pods on turn 1 that your opponent couldn't come on at all. If his entire table edge were fenced with drop pods and/or impassable terrain, he wouldn't even be able to deploy from reserve. Fortunately the odds of you pulling that off on a regular basis are really slim (one time I'd probably laugh, concede the game, and play another one with you. If you could do it on a regular basis I'd probably start to get annoyed :p). I certainly don't think it's cheesy to use empty pods to try to channel your opponent's movement.

By the way, about the "semi-empty" pods ... are you aware that you can't combat squad before you get into the pods? You might be, but your wording is unclear, and you say you've only been playing for a few weeks, so I'm trying to make sure somebody points that out to you before you have a game on the line :)

[Forteller]

I guess the question here is,how can you shuffle the roster,so the appearantly purely offensive on the initiative drop pod army can be also deployed with an advantage in a defensive situation?

[SombreBrotherhood]

I agree with most of Nabterayl's points. A problem with the defensive pod deployment he mentions is the risk of defeat in detail. A DP with storm bolter only engenders a feeling of annoyance as you have to find someone to blow it off the objective, but 10 marines just isn't scary when an enemy can turn 1/4 or more of his army against it on the turn it arrives and does little. Outside of 12", none of your units are very frightening. With their high cost in your low points value list, losing 24% of your forces (by points) to a single battle tank or vindicator or basilisk has to increase your pucker factor.

[Forteller]

You could always field 7 drop pods,and if you see you re on the defensive,just throw out the empty ones,they re relatively cheap( Christ's sake not IRL only in-game,they re a bore to buy,model and paint)

[Nikephoros]

Elaborate by all means,i want to find weaknesses in my "unchinkable" artificer armour.....

When I see your 5 drops pods and I put my whole army in reserve.

[SombreBrotherhood]

You could always field 7 drop pods,and if you see you re on the defensive,just throw out the empty ones,they re relatively cheap( Christ's sake not IRL only in-game,they re a bore to buy,model and paint)

So you're thinking of altering your army list after you determine who's going first? Why not have a small static element that forces some kind of reaction from your opponent? I don't know how many models you have or of what type or what your purchasing future is, but Autocannon Preds are dirt cheap and will at least force some sort of counter-deployment from your opponent, allowing the hammerblow to fall more accurately, as well as adding some sort of mobile element to your footsloggers.

[Nabterayl]

I guess the question here is,how can you shuffle the roster,so the appearantly purely offensive on the initiative drop pod army can be also deployed with an advantage in a defensive situation?
You don't need to shuffle the roster at all necessarily, just shuffle the drop zones. Let's say you've deployed three out of five objectives in such a way that you can hold all three from only two positions. The enemy has deployed either off the board, or in a castle so tough that you don't want to throw your sternguard at it until it's been broken up a bit. What do you do?

Well, you're essentially an infantry army, right? So you drop onto those two key positions in force and dig yourself into cover, and make the enemy come to you. Nothing fancy like dropping empty pods. No risk of defeat in detail (though of course you could still be defeated en masse :p). Just seizing the advantageous position before the enemy could get there. My mantra is this: pods do not give you mobility. Pods expand your deployment options.

An obvious risk in this sort of situation is that the enemy will be able to hang back and reduce your position from beyond your effective range. This you deal with the way you deal with any other long-range threat - either a cavalry unit to eliminate the heavy guns, a position so strong that it cannot be reduced from long range in time, or your own heavy guns (devastator squads and Thunderfire cannon can take drop pods for a reason, not that I'm necessarily advocating that as the preferred solution).

[Forteller]

I guess i could play around and put a LR with Termies, at least in the 1500 game,OR 2 vindis, Simply nuff,if the opposing player decides to hold everything in reserve,by the time he ' ll appear in the table i ll have a Reedemer's flamestorm cannons and 5 ANGRY termies staring at him whilst the sternguard will be in range,at that point he has to either deploy first turn or risk being at a SERIOUS disadvantage at turn 2.....

[Nabterayl]

It is that line of reasoning, my friend, that leads most people to conclude that a mixed force of drop pods and "ground" units works better than a force of pure drop pods.

If you think about it, from a fluff standpoint this makes sense. The classic drop pod assault differs from the tabletop version in two critical ways:
The classic drop pod assault would have the first wave be nothing but Deathstorm pods, which you can't take unless your group allows IA2 units. This attempts to address the anti-drop pod castle tactic.
The classic drop pod assault knows where and when it's dropping. Fluff-wise, the enemy can't hold his force in "reserve" one inch outside of the "playable area." This attempts to address the hold-everything-in-reserve tactic.
Lacking those key features of fluff drop pod assaults, it's no wonder that people conclude the tabletop version has deficiencies.

[Forteller]

Ok this is pure theorycraft but bare with me........

My opponent plays,he holds everything in reserve,my turn i have 6 drop pods,2 are empty,i throw down one with 10 tacticals and two empty ones,all have deathwind missile launchers and one of them has a locator beacon,my opponents turn,what does he do?

Again sorry for the theorycraftin...

[Nabterayl]

I think that's a good way to build a drop pod list that is more flexible than the "classic" can-only-do-brick-to-the-face list that people think of when they hear "drop pod list." What your opponent does then depends on his capabilities, which obviously we can't predict with certainty, but here's what I would want to do as your opponent in that situation:

Target the tactical squads. They're an obvious weak point in your list. I want to threaten them, either wiping them out or forcing you to pull back your other units to reinforce? Do I have any fast Outflankers that can do this, bypassing the drop pod fence? What about Deep Strike units?
If I must come on from the table edge that the drop pod fence is protecting, did the pod fence fall in such a way that I can bypass it? Depending on the scatter rolls, I might just be able to.
If I must come on from the table edge that the drop pod fence is protecting, am I mechanized? I'd like to be - Deathwind launchers aren't much of a threat to vehicles, but infantry don't want to march past them.
Given my reserve rolls on turn 2, how can I deploy in such a way as to maximize my defense against a sternguard pod? This one will be very fact-sensitive, obviously.
If I have tanks in my reserve force, can they take out the locator beacon and/or Deathwind pods to make the way safer for the follow-on troops? Transports might want to just rush through the fence and take their chances, but tanks might not have anything better to do on their first turn in.

That's more or less how I'd analyze that threat.

[Forteller]

Hmmmmmm

I guess you use 6-7 pods,only 10 tacticals,20 sterns and librarian, if i drop the 4 deathwind' with 2 having locator beacons,i leave 3 drop pods with 10 tactical and 10 and 10 sternguards for turn 2,the opponent has nothing to target, if he fight the drop pods,so be it,i ll drop on turn 2 and just wash him off the face of the earth,or he can ignore it,but take into account that deathwind have str 5,on a 5 its a glancing in the back of transports and on a 6 its penetrating,if he rushes forward he ll get hit from behind,plus,i had that problem in a recent game,the "wings" of a drop pod and the pod itself constitutes as an enemy model, he needs to stay 1 inch away,we re talking 4 relatively large objects that will force him to either deal with it,at which point i ll whack im over the head on turn 2+ or ignore it if he can allow two at which point i ll deploy in front of him,and he ll be caught BETWEEN 4 deatwind LARGE template blasters and 20 sternguards from the front.....

I consider fiddling around the points to add a Tigurius in there in that scenario...re-rolling reserve rolls plus the whole 3 spells per turn i knows everything attitude,discuss......

[MarshalAdamar]

My answer to that particular issue would be to put enough fire on the empty pods to shake them.

The rest of my fire goes into the marines followed by a charge if I’m in range; multi charge if I can to get the empty pods too just in case I didn't get my shaken results on them yet.

This is of course subject to where you drop the pods. To use the death winds I have to be with in 12” and that puts them all with in charge range if you wanted to have targets the next turn.

So the next round the marines are dead or mostly dead and even if I did not destroy any pods I should have kept most of them from shooting. Then we move out and mop up the pods as they land.

Similar to how you try and deal with daemons. Isolate and destroy.

On a more general note.

You can’t always do it of course, but if you don’t get good reserve rolls you get the lead elements dead while waiting on the others and that’s even if you get one drop pod a turn after the first. There’s just not enough on the board at one time to get a foot hold to push off of.

I’ve been playing for while and I’ve found that if you look at your opponent and the situation and take some calculated risks that can get you a good return there is a way to defeat ANY army build with ANY army build.

Some times it just comes down to the mission specifics.

I play a heavy foot slogging Templar army sometimes and my buddie learned there are some mission’s especially objective mission that he can win with some luck and some strategy.

The mission doesn’t say you win because you destroy my 55 assault troops and the land raider it says he who has the most objectives wins.

So do doesn’t try and engage me directly because he knows he’ll loose. He plays a denial game, gets away and uses transports to keep out of assault and tries to find a way to be the guy with 3 of 5 objectives. Which sometimes comes down to a tank shocking rhino in the 6th round to contest for one objective and break the tie.

Something to think about.

[Nabterayl]

but take into account that deathwind have str 5,on a 5 its a glancing in the back of transports and on a 6 its penetrating,if he rushes forward he ll get hit from behind
True, racing past Deathwind launchers is not a good thing. But it's a heck of a lot better than walking past them. Once the battle begins to develop I'm not necessarily looking for ways to neutralize my enemy's plans. Mitigating against them is often all that can be done.


,plus,i had that problem in a recent game,the "wings" of a drop pod and the pod itself constitutes as an enemy model, he needs to stay 1 inch away
That's a local matter. If the pod doors count as an enemy model (not my preference, but I assume this is how your group plays), that certainly does make the fence much more of an obstacle.


I consider fiddling around the points to add a Tigurius in there in that scenario...re-rolling reserve rolls plus the whole 3 spells per turn i knows everything attitude,discuss......
Tigurius is certainly an aid to a reserve-based army. I think that comes down to points - at a given points level, can you afford Tigurius and still have enough left to allow for a flexible pod list? There's no point in taking Tigurius to enhance your flexibility if he cost so much that you have a less flexible list to begin with, after all. I would just bust out the spreadsheet and gin up a couple of Tigurius-based lists at my target points levels, to see if I liked any of them.

[Forteller]

20 stern equals 500 points 16 combis equals 80 points = 580
6 Drop pods= 210 points
1 Tigurius= 230 or
2 x 5 tacticals= 170 points
2 Deathwind Missiles= 40
2 x locator beacons=20
equals= 1250

Semi-gimpy with only 10 tacts but i think its viable.......i think i dont need the locator beacon anyhow....but i put aside 4 combis so i can use two of em....perhaps i can put the combis back..... At any point turn 1 throw 3 drop pods with 2-3 deathwind/locator and turn two wait mathammer, i guess 80% of the time all drop pods make it,exactly where i want em? OR if i dont want em,i can reroll successful saves and keep em for turn 3 if i need to wait for my opponent,please discuss this build as i find it semi-intriguing :)

[Nabterayl]

20 stern equals 500 points 16 combis equals 90 points = 580
Isn't that 590?


Semi-gimpy with only 10 tacts but i think its viable
Except that you can't drop pod two five-man squads of tactical marines. You need ten marines in the unit to even select a drop pod, so if you want drop podding tacticals, you'll need at least two squads of ten.

[Forteller]

Hmmm lets say i bring the number from 6 down to 5 drop pods,i bring the tacticals as reserve through the table edge,and i consider that sternguards are 2 units of 5 and 1 unit of 10,thats enough for 5 pods correct?And i guess that 10 tacticals when seperated at 5 x 5 when they come as reserves count as two troop choices,asked a judge for that i wasnt sure,anyhow i can have a dedicated transport for an infantry unit,and choose not to use it to carry them right?And administer the drop pods and sternguards respectively?

[Nabterayl]

Hmmm lets say i bring the number from 6 down to 5 drop pods,i bring the tacticals as reserve through the table edge,and i consider that sternguards are 2 units of 5 and 1 unit of 10,thats enough for 5 pods correct?And i guess that 10 tacticals when seperated at 5 x 5 when they come as reserves count as two troop choices,asked a judge for that i wasnt sure,anyhow i can have a dedicated transport for an infantry unit,and choose not to use it to carry them right?And administer the drop pods and sternguards respectively?
You do not need to place a unit inside its dedicated transport. However, you can't start anything else inside another unit's dedicated transport.

Two squads of five sternguard may purchase a drop pod. That's two pods.
One unit of ten sternguard may purchase a drop pod. That's three pods.
One unit of ten tacticals may purchase a drop pod. That's four pods. Their pod could be dropped empty.

However

Now you only have one Troops choice. You need at least two to make a legal army. A single squad of ten tactical marines, even if deployed as two units of five per the Combat Squads rule, is still a single Troops choice for purposes of the Force Organization Chart.

[Forteller]

Are you certain about that? I asked a local judge and he said that one squad of 10 marines if deployed as two combat squads counts as two troops,furthermore lets say i got 2 full tactical teams 10 sternguards and 5 and 5 sternguards which equals 5 pods,can i,bring 2 units of tacticals as reserve from table edge,3 empty drop pods,and 2 drop pods with 10 and 10 sternguards that will deploy as 5 and 5 and 5 and 5? It sounds a bit complex i know,my apologies......

[Nabterayl]

Are you certain about that?
Absolutely positive. The Combat Squads rule nowhere references anything other than "units."

I asked a local judge and he said that one squad of 10 marines if deployed as two combat squads counts as two troops
It counts as two Troops units, yes. It does not count as two Troops choices.

,furthermore lets say i got 2 full tactical teams 10 sternguards and 5 and 5 sternguards which equals 5 pods,can i,bring 2 units of tacticals as reserve from table edge
Yes.

,3 empty drop pods
Yes.

,and 2 drop pods with 10 and 10 sternguards that will deploy as 5 and 5 and 5 and 5? It sounds a bit complex i know,my apologies......
No. Break it down like this:
Tactical Squad A (10 marines) - Drop Pod A
Tactical Squad B (10 marines) - Drop Pod B
Sternguard Squad C (10 marines) - Drop Pod C
Sternguard Squad D (5 marines) - Drop Pod D
Sternguard Squad E (5 marines) - Drop Pod E
You can drop any of pods A-E as empty. So you could drop three empty pods (say, A, B, and E). What you cannot do is put squads D and E into pod D. The only unit that can go into pod D is squad D. If squad E doesn't go in pod E, it has to go on foot.

Putting squads D and E into pod D violates two rules. First, it violates the rule that a transport may hold only one unit, no matter what (see page 66). Second, it violates the rule that a unit may not be deployed in another unit's dedicated transport (see page 67).

You could, of course, delete squad E and make squad D ten marines. But then you would have only four pods.

[SombreBrotherhood]

Yes, that's the way it is. You have to look at it from the purchase standpoint, and that's what drove the questions I posted earlier this thread. Remember, the one where you 'showed me your math skills' ? :)

If you buy two squads of 5, that's 2 troop choices. You can't buy a pod for each of them. Like Nabertayl said, you MUST purchase 10-man squads of tactical marines to get Drop Pods, that's listed straight-up in the codex.

Now, a single 10-man squad in drop pod MAY divide into two 5-man combat squads when they arrive on the table and from then on they are treated as two seperate units, each of which may hold objectives since they're all troop choices.

So...you can buy 30 marines and fill up your six troop slots (6 squads of 5 models each) and not legally buy a drop pod for any of them.

Or, you can buy 60 marines (6 squads of 10 models each) WITH drop pods for each, and separate all, some, or none when you arrive to get 6-12 scoring units.


furthermore lets say i got 2 full tactical teams 10 sternguards and 5 and 5 sternguards which equals 5 pods,can i,bring 2 units of tacticals as reserve from table edge,3 empty drop pods,and 2 drop pods with 10 and 10 sternguards that will deploy as 5 and 5 and 5 and 5? It sounds a bit complex i know,my apologies......

So let's straighten that out:
10 Tactical w/ Pod, 10 Tactical w/ Pod, 10 Sternguard w/ Pod, 5 Sternguard w/ Pod, 5 Sternguard w/ Pod

From your quote, you can: Walk the two squads of Tacticals on from the board edge and drop their pods empty, yes. To get a 3rd empty pod, you'll have to walk on one of your Sternguard groups. If you drop pod the 10 man Sternguard unit they can break into 2 five-man squads when they exit the pod. But that's just silly. What are twenty-five marine footsloggers walking on from your board edge going to do, other than babysit your objective?

[Forteller]

First of all thanks for all the responses,i might have sounded noobish :P

Anyhow from what i gather i guess i ve summed it up to the following roster:

2 x 10 tacticals=340
2 x 10 Sternguards with combi=600
1 Librarian=100
4 Drop Pods= 140
3 Deathwind Launchers=60
1 Locator Beacon=10

=1250

So in theory either i drop down two sternguards if my opponent's army has deployed or 1 tactical and just observe and hit the sternguards at a critical juncture later?

Is this build still viable?

Alternatively i could remove 10 tacticals,play the sternguards like 10x5x5 and put Tigurius in and just make it a bit more wobbly,whatcha think?

[Lerra]

I like the new list. I would not add Tigurius. More marines on the table means that you have more staying power. With a drop pod list, you want a high model count. You'll eat at least one round of shooting before you get to act normally, so count on functioning with some casualties. You'll also be outnumbered versus a lot of armies, and adding expensive HQs at low point values only makes the gap larger.

If you wanted to add an expensive HQ at higher point values (I'd recommend waiting until at least 1500 points to add one, if not 2000), Pedro Kantor would be your guy. He is strong and he turns Sternguard into scoring units which will really help out your type of list.

[Forteller]

Admittedly i wanted Tigurius in the case that if i send empty drop pods on turn 1,i know that i got 75% chance to get both drop pods where and how i want them on turn 2,admittedly now the question is raised,if not Tigurius then do you put a regular Librarian so you get access to Null Zone,Do you put Vulkan for all the combi melta and flamers,or simply a captain with a command squad of feel no pain and stormshields at 215 points?

[SombreBrotherhood]

Your alternate build isn't viable...if you remove 10 Tactical Marines, you're losing your 2nd troop and making the army illegal.

I think that the army would have to play out perfectly to really be viable against a competitive take-all-comers list. It's the fact that your best, hardest-hitting units are still impotent at any range >12" that bugs me the most, plus the fact that you don't have any fire support from your pods on the turn they land. One bad scatter will take you out of near-guaranteed kill range of AV13-14 vehicles, and arriving with only 2 units on turn 1, for a maximum of 23 models (20 dudes, character, and their pods) will set up 800 or so of your points against the opponent's 1250, which is a bad deal for you. Every dead S-guard for you is 30 lost points, and I don't think you can enjoy that rate of exchange while wishing and hoping for the rest of your army to show up quickly enough to help out.

[Forteller]

Well Tigurius turns "wishing" into,highly considerable chance that everything will arrive when and how i want it.
So anyhow i ve been noodling this this theory in my head this morning....

Ok fine we know that thunderfire cannons are lame,but consider this for a second,

1st turn i drop 1 tactical, and 2 thunderfire in the back of the field,
if the opponent is there,i mow down his infantry,if he aint so far the better,he ll have to bring out his reserves one by one.2nd Turn after he has brought "something into the board i drop two sternguard x10 in two drop pods near his base and procede to mow down his, monstrous creatures/vehicles while my two thunderfire with their x8 blasts mow down the infantry.

HQ i am guessing either a librarian or a Vulkan,still trying to work out the numbers,

what do you think of the concept?

Btw if he plays first and actually deploys,hes dead cheese,i ll just drop 2 sternguards and one tactical into his ranks 12 inches from the board and procede to use 10 flamers on him,whilst 5 and 5 meltas on vehicles and rapid fire from the tacts on random infantry to wipe out stragglers.....

[cypher623]

Hmmmmmm

I guess you use 6-7 pods,only 10 tacticals,20 sterns and librarian, if i drop the 4 deathwind' with 2 having locator beacons,i leave 3 drop pods with 10 tactical and 10 and 10 sternguards for turn 2,the opponent has nothing to target, if he fight the drop pods,so be it,i ll drop on turn 2 and just wash him off the face of the earth,or he can ignore it,but take into account that deathwind have str 5,on a 5 its a glancing in the back of transports and on a 6 its penetrating,if he rushes forward he ll get hit from behind,plus,i had that problem in a recent game,the "wings" of a drop pod and the pod itself constitutes as an enemy model, he needs to stay 1 inch away,we re talking 4 relatively large objects that will force him to either deal with it,at which point i ll whack im over the head on turn 2+ or ignore it if he can allow two at which point i ll deploy in front of him,and he ll be caught BETWEEN 4 deatwind LARGE template blasters and 20 sternguards from the front.....

I consider fiddling around the points to add a Tigurius in there in that scenario...re-rolling reserve rolls plus the whole 3 spells per turn i knows everything attitude,discuss......

great advice. tigurius is awesome for bringing in reserves, plus he is the most versatile in that list. he is q real dark horse and i had great success with him.

[cypher623]

Well Tigurius turns "wishing" into,highly considerable chance that everything will arrive when and how i want it.
So anyhow i ve been noodling this this theory in my head this morning....

Ok fine we know that thunderfire cannons are lame,but consider this for a second,

1st turn i drop 1 tactical, and 2 thunderfire in the back of the field,
if the opponent is there,i mow down his infantry,if he aint so far the better,he ll have to bring out his reserves one by one.2nd Turn after he has brought "something into the board i drop two sternguard x10 in two drop pods near his base and procede to mow down his, monstrous creatures/vehicles while my two thunderfire with their x8 blasts mow down the infantry.

HQ i am guessing either a librarian or a Vulkan,still trying to work out the numbers,

what do you think of the concept?

Btw if he plays first and actually deploys,hes dead cheese,i ll just drop 2 sternguards and one tactical into his ranks 12 inches from the board and procede to use 10 flamers on him,whilst 5 and 5 meltas on vehicles and rapid fire from the tacts on random infantry to wipe out stragglers.....

consider using either lysander and/or magnus. i used them both in the ardboys attachedd to two t-hammer termie squads and they ROCKED! Eternal warrior with four wounds each and great invulnerables means they soak up a HUGE amount of firepower. I never lost either of them in any of the three games.

[Chaosgerbil]

Nab is right and the Tau player wasn't playting by the rules, not to mention being a prat taking 25 minutes to resolve one thing. If it is that dicey get a neutral opinion.

I don't know much about playing Drop Pod marines, sorry.

[the jeske]

Ok I dont understand one thing with this build , why is it played without kantor ? playing with him more or less clears the problem of scoring unit and gives one more shoty model to the drop pod crews.
the set up for sternguard in a pedro build is 5 melta 5 plasma and combat squading , so if you hit a transport on the same turn [againt meq] you also kill the unit inside . while playing against armies like nids or chaos [when your targeting DPs and oblits] it works nice too . If a librarian should been taken for this list[or rather a psychic hood] then it should be a GK GM with a unit of TH/SS terminators and a LR , but thats for 1750+ point games[to fit it in to a 1500 pts you would have to play with a 5 man naked sm squad and with pods only for sternguard] .