Khaine = Khorne

[Deadlift]

I'm really very new to Eldar, but really loving the army and the background so far. But Khaine is made reference to so many times as an Eldar god, his similarities to Khorne seem to me to be quite relevant. Are they the same being from a different perspective ?

[DarkLink]

No, the Eldar gods existed long before the birth of the chaos gods. Khaine isn't as purely violent as Khorne, either. Plus khorne is much more powerful than Khaine was, I believe.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I don't think so, since they operate in different spheres (Khaine now being shards on the mortal plain and Khorne the greatest power in the warp), but there's something of an implied connection, even down to the "bunny ears" headdresses.

If I was asked to write the fluff, I'd probably say that Khaine predated Khorne, and as one of the primary sources of violence for millennia, "shaped" the growing Khorne - like how old fluff said Khorne looked a bit Orky, since Orks are responsible for most of the violence in the galaxy.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Since we're talking 40k they are separate entities, but operating in the same sphere. In fantasy it's a little less defined.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Khaine has similarities with both Khorne and Slaanesh, which is why they fought over his powers. It depends on your view of 40k cosmology and how "real" the events of the Fall are. But Khaine isn't just an aspect of Khorne, there's more to it than that.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the way i see it, eldar (40k) and elves (WFB) are both selfish and insular societies.

i see khaine as an eldar khorne. the aspect of violence and war distilled into essence, just as slaanesh is the aspect of wanton desire and pleasure.

[eldargal]

Khorne is the god of violence born of human belief
Khaine is the god of violence born of eldar belief

Due to the heightened psychic nature of the eldar and their greater awareness of their powers Khaine is much more complex in character than Khorne as the different eldar attitude towards violence shapes his nature.

[madlants]

It's very strongly implied that the Eldar gods are actually the Old Ones (a super advanced race that created the Eldar and a bunch of other intelligent species), and Khaine was a powerful old one warrior with serious anger management issues. Since the Eldar were worshiping Khaine (and their other old one gods) at the time Khorne came into existence (during the war with the Necrons), it's very likely that Khaine worshipers provided a lot of fuel for feeding the unborn/recently born Blood God. This could be why there are some similarities. But they're definitely not the same god. Khaine isn't even technically alive anymore. He got smashed to pieces by Slaanesh and the pieces live on as Avatars. Khorne, on the other hand, isn't just alive, but is the strongest god in the Chaos pantheon. There's no way Slaanesh could so thoroughly beat him in a fair, one on one fight like that.

In Warhammer Fantasy, Khaine is a lot less developed, and seems much more nasty and bloodthirsty (he's the main god of the Dark Elves, while in 40k, the Dark Eldar worship nothing but themselves). He might be an aspect of Khorne in Fantasy, although he seems much more interested in sacrifices than glorious death on the battlefield.

[Anggul]

It's more heavily implied that, like any warp-god-thing, they're formed of the emotions of the Eldar, rather than being the Old Ones. The Old Ones created the Eldar, whose gods then formed from them. It's possible that this is basically a symbolisation of how the Old Ones created the Eldar to be a powerful psychic race who were able to use the warp as a weapon against the Necrons and the C'Tan, symbolised by Khaine fighting the Nightbringer etc.

This is backed up in the Iyanden codex, which says that the flame of Asuryan burns brighter when the Eldar themselves are motivated, and dimmer when they are sorrowful and down. It also says that they see it as a herald of their hope, and that they know that it is they that control it rather than the other way around, so the reason they see it as a symbol of their hope is that when it burns brighter it means they're doing better.

[Bigred]

There are subtle differences in Khaine across 40K and WFB.

In 40K he is the bloody handed god, and more associated with bloodlust and martial violence, along with the honorable aspects of it all rolled into one. So you can get things like Dire Avengers being an aspect of his honor, while Dark Reapers are more on the killing side of things.

In WFB he is the god of murder, (not the "honorable" killing of soldiers on the battlefield - but the sacrificing of prisoners and the helpless kind of thing) so he is a much more sinister figure. His big adherents are the Witch cults and the Har Ganeth Executioners. Quite a different vibe than Eldar Aspect Warriors.

[Nabterayl]

Khorne is the god of violence born of human belief
Khaine is the god of violence born of eldar belief

Due to the heightened psychic nature of the eldar and their greater awareness of their powers Khaine is much more complex in character than Khorne as the different eldar attitude towards violence shapes his nature.
I think EG is giving Khorne's complexity short shrift here, but I quite agree with this general characterization.

[Morgrim]

In quite a bit of the fluff I've read, particularly the portrayal of him in 'Masque of Vyle', Khaine seems to be the god of violent retribution. There is certainly an implied 'justice' about his actions (and also that he has a hair trigger and goes overboard, so rather like Ares in that regard). Less pure slaughter for the sake of bloodshed and more violence for actual or perceived slights. Which still fits in with the WFB lore because the Dark Elves are still incredibly bitter over the throne being 'stolen' from Malkeith and consider all actions to reclaim what they see as their territory are justified.

[bfmusashi]

Whoa whoa whoa, Khorne and the other Chaos Gods have their origins in the War in Heaven (Old Ones edition). While Khorne's the "first" to wake up, and his first daemon prince was human doesn't make him a human baby. Given he's worshipped by myriad races and enjoys the efforts of orks he seems pretty non-specific as to his racial origins. On Khaine as a part of Khorne or as a mask, Khorne and Slaanesh had a throw down over Khaine as they both insist he was of them. He kind of tumbles out of the warp (MAGIC) and turns into millions of heavy metal Abraham Lincolns. So, he's separate.

[knas ser]

In the original fluff published in White Dwarf long ago (I think WD127), this was gone into in some detail. Khaine is not Khorne. He was a distinct god of the Eldar and a god of war, rather than violence per se. He embodies all of the Aspects - so the stealthy ambushers that are the Striking Scorpians, the righteous knights that are the Dire Avengers, the raging destruction that is the Fire Dragons, etc. When the Fall of the Eldar happened, the Eldar gods were consumed and subsumed by Slaanesh. This was because the Eldar gods were all essentially Eldar-ish reflections of the Eldar mindset and Slaanesh really underlies all of them being the most perfect reflection of the Eldar. Iirc, it states that Slaanesh "feasted on the Eldar gods" as the race fell, taking each of them in as part of hirself.

But when it came to Khaela Mensha Khaine, Khorne claimed that the bloody handed god belonged to him. You see Khaine was much like Khorne in that he was a god of war and violence, as Khorne was. But Khaine was also like Slaanesh in that he was a creature of passionate enjoyment and obsession. Khorne was murderous violence and blood lust - brutal and hateful. Slaanesh is exquisite refinement and a lover of sensation. Khaine made war a bloody dance of exhilaration and passionate violence. And so Khorne and Slaanesh fought over which embodied Khaine. The psychic battle was titanic. They tore at the Eldar god, first one way and then another, until finally Khaine tore apart and Khaine's fragments, like ashes, fell into the material world, each guided by Khaine to land in the heart of a great Eldar warrior. Each Eldar warrior touched by a fragment absorbed the essence of Khaine and became an Avatar of the god.

Thus both Khorne and Slaanesh were denied their prize and Khaine became the last of the Eldar gods.

[Finnegan]

Best answer to this was posted in "The Cauldron of Blood", a section of web magazine Druchii Herald (WHFB), where "Khaela Mensha Khaine,Our Lord and Master, Answers Your Pathetic Questions" :D


Dear Khaine,
Tell them you're not Khorne.

Not yours,
Rork, Lord of Khorne

Pitiful Rork,
It is people like you that make my Cauldron of Blood boil. How dare you even imply that anybody would liken me to that blood-obsessed, mentally unstable moron! You have personally insulted me, as have all of “them” by claiming that “they” would even dare to theorise whether I am Khorne!
This nonsense must stem from your subconscious desire to WANT me to be Khorne. Surely it is your deepest secret wish that your oafish deity actually turns out to be the cunning, suave, subtle, omniscient, omnipotent, mighty, undeniable, unbeatable being that is Khaela Mensha Khaine. All that bloodlust has clearly gone to your head. Or perhaps you are just as much of a simpleton as “they” are. No sane being with at least a sliver of intelligence would want his deity to NOT be me.
However, to put it simply for the simpletons who can’t see the simple answer – I’m not Khorne.

Khaela Mensha “Not-Khorne” Khaine

[bfmusashi]

Sadly, it was illegible from all the blood seeping off Khaine's hand, but such are the wages of war.

[Finnegan]

Maybe he was dictating.

[bfmusashi]

I demand Secretary of Khaine be a unit type in the next codex.

[Eldar_Atog]

I like to joke with my opponents that it took every other race working together to create Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle. The Eldar created Slaanesh all by ourselves :)

[FTGT]

Thus both Khorne and Slaanesh were denied their prize and Khaine became the last of the Eldar gods.

Don't forget Cegorach, the Laughing God, who is said to be the only surviving and whole Eldar god.

[knas ser]

Don't forget Cegorach, the Laughing God, who is said to be the only surviving and whole Eldar god.

Doh. How could I have possibly forgotten the Laughing God if the Harlequins! Arggh!

Yes, the Laughing God survives. It was actually a wonderful vignette in the original fluff when a troupe of Harlequines performed The Dance that tells the tale of the Fall. Rarely performed because only a Solitaire can play the role of Slaanesh without going mad. In it, the Laughing God is the only dancer to escape from Slaanesh. His mocking dismissal of pleasure and power made him the only god that Slaanesh could not consume.