Thoughts on the Hydra and Manicore

[Renegade]

Thought about it, and I think I will stick with the original idea. Vets or Stormies in vendettas didn't feel right at 1.5K, while the Valkyrie is not reliable enough to fill the AT role.

So what are your thought on the Hydra and Manticore, there role is with a Mech guard list.

[bestguyever]

I would definitely recommend the manticore, D3 strength 10 templates are never a bad thing. It has the potential to release the same amount of firepower as an entire battery of basilisks. Its limited ammunition is rarely a detriment, since people will tend to prioritize it over many other targets in your army.

The Hydra has become rather terrible, I think. If your opponent does not run fliers, they are next to useless. I tried to use hydras in the beginning of 6th and hitting on 6's against ground targets is just awful. Imperial Guard fliers can provide much better anti-flyer than the hydra.

[Tyrendian]

I would definitely recommend the manticore, D3 strength 10 templates are never a bad thing. It has the potential to release the same amount of firepower as an entire battery of basilisks. Its limited ammunition is rarely a detriment, since people will tend to prioritize it over many other targets in your army.

The Hydra has become rather terrible, I think. If your opponent does not run fliers, they are next to useless. I tried to use hydras in the beginning of 6th and hitting on 6's against ground targets is just awful. Imperial Guard fliers can provide much better anti-flyer than the hydra.

don't forget though the Hydra will hit half the "ground" vehicles you'll face these days on normal BS since everyone and their mum plays Tau and Eldar, plus Necrons and Dark Eldar, plus Land Speeders in their various forms (for completeness' sake...)
still not exactly ideal, but neither is it half as bad as I initially thought it was when I saw it had no Interceptor, since it also denies those pesky Skimmers their Jink... and that thing is dirt cheap to boot...
Manticores are just utterly deadly and very much recommended

[Renegade]

I would definitely recommend the manticore, D3 strength 10 templates are never a bad thing. It has the potential to release the same amount of firepower as an entire battery of basilisks. Its limited ammunition is rarely a detriment, since people will tend to prioritize it over many other targets in your army.

The Hydra has become rather terrible, I think. If your opponent does not run fliers, they are next to useless. I tried to use hydras in the beginning of 6th and hitting on 6's against ground targets is just awful. Imperial Guard fliers can provide much better anti-flyer than the hydra.

Well it is the Manticore that is actually most problems theoretically, as ideally I need AP 2, the problem is that they have better range than the Medusa and more potential than the Basilisk. I will be running two of them, so target priority can be switched.

I think l know the style of armies I am most likely to face at the local club, and the Hydra will be kept busy try to finish off MCs or other multi wound type if there are no skimmers or flyers. I think it should prove useful just with the number of good strength shots, and hit enough that the fact it is snap firing means little.

[Tyrendian]

Well it is the Manticore that is actually most problems theoretically, as ideally I need AP 2, the problem is that they have better range than the Medusa and more potential than the Basilisk. I will be running two of them, so target priority can be switched.

I think l know the style of armies I am most likely to face at the local club, and the Hydra will be kept busy try to finish off MCs or other multi wound type if there are no skimmers or flyers. I think it should prove useful just with the number of good strength shots, and hit enough that the fact it is snap firing means little.

if you're than keen on AP2 (which is understandable), just go for Vendettas even if you don't have any guys to put inside them... they are an incredibly mean piece of work even without passengers

[Katharon]

First, I will say that the Hydra (which is suppose to be the most advanced AA system in the Imperium of Man) needs to get both Interceptor and Skyfire in this next update. If it doesn't, then it's going to be the most retarded thing to take if you're not facing someone with a lot of air power.

Second, the Manticore is cool -- but I've never had a use for them. Leman Russ Battle Tanks and their variants have always been much more utilitarian and capable of covering all long range firepower that I've ever needed. While it may be useful to have one parked in a corner somewhere, it does have a limited amount of ammunition, a fact that some smart players will take in stride and either ignore it, letting you run out of ammunition, or they'll devote a unit of Deep Striking whatever or a flyer to take it out -- which it won't long survive due to low armor value. You want something mobile, strong, and able to dish it out: then go with a Leman Russ.

Third, I have to agree completely with what Tyrendian said. Vendettas are, almost, the best flyer in the game due to their strong AV and 3 twin-linked lascannon; all on top of the fact that they can still transport a unit if they have to or you want to. They're the best 130 point investment you could make for a flyer.

[Tyrendian]

First, I will say that the Hydra (which is suppose to be the most advanced AA system in the Imperium of Man) needs to get both Interceptor and Skyfire in this next update. If it doesn't, then it's going to be the most retarded thing to take if you're not facing someone with a lot of air power.

Second, the Manticore is cool -- but I've never had a use for them. Leman Russ Battle Tanks and their variants have always been much more utilitarian and capable of covering all long range firepower that I've ever needed. While it may be useful to have one parked in a corner somewhere, it does have a limited amount of ammunition, a fact that some smart players will take in stride and either ignore it, letting you run out of ammunition, or they'll devote a unit of Deep Striking whatever or a flyer to take it out -- which it won't long survive due to low armor value. You want something mobile, strong, and able to dish it out: then go with a Leman Russ.

Third, I have to agree completely with what Tyrendian said. Vendettas are, almost, the best flyer in the game due to their strong AV and 3 twin-linked lascannon; all on top of the fact that they can still transport a unit if they have to or you want to. They're the best 130 point investment you could make for a flyer.

@Third, thanks :D

@Second, I've yet to see a Manticore actually run out of ammo, and I also have yet to see one not being worth its points - D3 S10 Ordnance 5" Barrage(!) templates will usually kill most anything you point them at (or something next to that, one should usually aim a Manticore at a small cluster of units so a scatter still has the potential to do something useful). And at its worst, you opponent will be very afraid of it and devote a lot of ressources to killing it - which, assuming you play on a half decent table, is really not that easy (even Deep Strikers can scatter behind a wall or into something less than healthy). And then they tend to stand right in front of (or behind, which does not matter all that much except for your tanks) your gunline and get blasted to bits. Fliers are probably the best answer to a Manticore (as it should be really), but (again assuming a decent table) even they are likely shooting through some kind of cover and most likely at your front arc - so it's far from a guaranteed kill for a single flier.

@First, I really don't think the Hydra absolutely needs Interceptor - there's already plenty enough of that crappy rule floating around for my liking... Maybe something to allow it to fire at ground targets with full BS without the fun-killing Interceptor... I mean, yeah snap-shooting at that pesky Rhino is kinda annoying, but as I said about half the armies you are likely to face have some sort of suitable target besides actual fliers, and even if you play another Guard regiment without air support, that thing is only 75pts - blow up a Chimera full of melta vets with a lucky shot and I'd say that Hydra was plenty worth its points!

[Renegade]

First, I will say that the Hydra (which is suppose to be the most advanced AA system in the Imperium of Man) needs to get both Interceptor and Skyfire in this next update. If it doesn't, then it's going to be the most retarded thing to take if you're not facing someone with a lot of air power.

Well it can deny both flyers and skimmers their jink save and is mobile, which is good enough for me for the points.


Second, the Manticore is cool -- but I've never had a use for them. Leman Russ Battle Tanks and their variants have always been much more utilitarian and capable of covering all long range firepower that I've ever needed. While it may be useful to have one parked in a corner somewhere, it does have a limited amount of ammunition, a fact that some smart players will take in stride and either ignore it, letting you run out of ammunition, or they'll devote a unit of Deep Striking whatever or a flyer to take it out -- which it won't long survive due to low armor value. You want something mobile, strong, and able to dish it out: then go with a Leman Russ.

There is a fluff reason I am not taking LRBTs,.I don't have to sit it in a corner as it can keep up with the mechanised units.


Third, I have to agree completely with what Tyrendian said. Vendettas are, almost, the best flyer in the game due to their strong AV and 3 twin-linked lascannon; all on top of the fact that they can still transport a unit if they have to or you want to. They're the best 130 point investment you could make for a flyer.

Doesn't really suit my style. I means not having my main AT on the table when I need to advance, which I prefer pie plates for to be honest, and being left quite vulnerable for a few turns. It is also competing with my Sentinels, which is just not happening.

[Tyrendian]

Well it can deny both flyers and skimmers their jink save and is mobile, which is good enough for me for the points.



There is a fluff reason I am not taking LRBTs,.I don't have to sit it in a corner as it can keep up with the mechanised units.



Doesn't really suit my style. I means not having my main AT on the table when I need to advance, which I prefer pie plates for to be honest, and being left quite vulnerable for a few turns. It is also competing with my Sentinels, which is just not happening.

you might want to give us a little input about your fluff and style then, if you "refuse" (no offence taken at all - I'm just curious!) our advice on those grounds...
why on Terra would you want your artillery to advance with your front line (if I'm interpreting that second paragraph right)???
Also, are you really taking three squadrons of Sentinels to make them compete that strongly with Vendettas?
reserving the Vendettas is not that much of a risk, that's what your average Astropath is there for...

[Renegade]

I wasn't going to discuss fluff issues as I wanted to stay on thoughts regarding these units, or possible alternatives in the heavy support slot.

But if it helps they are the Trellian (http://z4.invisionfree.com/Boot_Camp/index.php?showtopic=12890&hl=) and army based on the Royal Logistic Corp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Logistic_Corps)