Proxies: When it isn't ok any more [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Duke

11-23-2009, 11:13 AM

So I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine the other day. Essentially we started talking about proxies used in people armies and when it gets to the point of "go get the actual model."

What we essentially came down to was that it depends on what the intent is. For example, at my FLGS someone uses Chaos Knights as Blood Crushers. Originally it was said that they were proxiing because the actual models were too expenisve ($25 each!) we understood and let it go. Fast Forward a few months and that person hasn't bought any of the actual models and is using the wrong bases (on termie bases instead of dread bases)... Is this proxying gone too far, or not?

Another example: A Daemon player wants to use different 'gods,' units but wants the army to have a mono Khorne look. As such Fateweaver has been proxied by a fantasy varghulf. While his Blood thirster is proxied by a Balrog and cold ones are his fiends... Are all of these wrong? Is only one? I felt the Balrog proxiy was great, but wasn't too happy with the greater daemon being played by a Varghulf (That model doesn't scream "Greater Daemon") I thought (ignorantly) at that time that becuse of the proxied model fateweaver was more like Masque in that it was a special daemon who wasn't a greater daemon.

Example: Another player has chosen to use all Storm trooper models for his IG army. The only problem... his storm troopers are also storm trooper models so its really hard to tell what is what.

Last Example: A marine player uses sternguard models as tactical squad members, but doesn't run any actual sternguard.

What I wanted to know is 'when is it too much?' I came down to intention. Basically I don't like the Blood Crusher and fateweaver examples because the Blood Crushers have to be on a larger base and the person who started them said he didn't have the money to buy the actual models, while he is heard to be talking about starting a new army. With fateweaver it is simple, a Varg is in no way, shape or form anything like a greater Daemon... Imagine my suprise the first time I played him and he says "He is a greater daemon!"

The guard player I don't mind, if he would use something to differentiate his actual stormtroopers (I.e. paint job, Forgeworld models, etc.

The marine player I don't mind at all.

I would really like to hear what you all think...

Duke

the one

11-23-2009, 11:21 AM

All but the last one are to far...

Lord Azaghul

11-23-2009, 11:25 AM

Hey if the guard player is silly enough to use stormtroopers as stormstroopers I'd let him - using them as normal troops and ST is a bit (small bit) headache-ish.

The chaos knight for a blook crusher - nope - by now he should've bought a box of bloodletters and converted a few knights (and get the right bases)

Most people in my club do alright with proxying. I'm especially ok with 'trying it out' in a game or two - but if the whole club has to know that your russ battle cannon 'counts as' a medusa AND you fielding normal battle cannons after 3 or 4 months...sorry dude.

Duke

11-23-2009, 11:32 AM

That was my feeling... I thought that he should at least be buying one or two every so often in an attempt to one day relace all of them. Its funny when people in the group don't think there is a bloodcrusher model because this guy uses knights so much. lol

DarkLink

11-23-2009, 11:34 AM

So long as what is what is pretty clear, and the models are similar in size, proxying is fine.

The Knights as Bloodcrushers doesn't fit that, because Knightgs are much smaller than 'crushers.

Whereas the Sternguard is fine, since power armor looks a lot alike anyways. It isn't hard to remember that your opponent isn't actually taking Sternguard (now, if he is taking sternguard, and some are sternguard and some aren't, he'd better keep reminding you which is which).

the one

11-23-2009, 11:35 AM

I know a man (Alan I belive) who has 12 bloodcrushers in his 1000 point army. Very. Hard.

He has the models to, but he got them on staff discount.

Melissia

11-23-2009, 11:38 AM

I would prefer that the Guard player only use stormtrooper models for those with carapace, to be honest. That's what they're intended to be.

But when it comes down to it... the proxy needs the following, in order of importance:

1: Similar size and shape to the original model (don't, for example, use Ogryns to proxy Grots, or a land raider to proxy a trukk, etc). A big indication of this is the height of the miniature and the size of its base-- they should be very similar to the model you intend to use them as.

2: Consistency. "That golem is a terminator captain . And THAT golem, painted exactly the same, is a dreadnought. And the other one, also looking exactly the same, is a Rhino." Fffffffffffffffffffffff.........

3: Similar theme. using beasts of chaos as chaos army miniatures is fine, as long as they're on similar bases to the units you want them to represent. Using a Living Saint to represent a Greater Daemon of Nurgle is extremely questionable unless you're ludicrously good with greenstuff, painting, etc.

4: A reason for the proxy other than "I'm too lazy to paint my miniatures". Yeah. Get your *** to work. Now, if you're waiting for models to arrive, fine, that's fine. IF you have to use some unpainted models, hey, it's better than proxying. But don't proxy out of laziness!

lobster-overlord

11-23-2009, 11:58 AM

For me it goes back to "Proxy" vs "Counts As."

A proxy is used when you don't have the model and a "counts as" model is used in place of a model where one does not exist, or you feel that you have a better representation for your army.

The stormtroopers as IG troops is more of a counts as unit, since he wants them to be represented by a model that he believes is cooler. Same for the Sternguard as tactical marines.

Now when you're dealing with people who don't want to put out the money for a model, it can go either way. If the player over time works towards making them more from proxy to counts as by modifying them, getting to the correct bases, etc. Then things should work out where the models will be better and work for what's needed.

I have played against a Tyranid player who uses models as proxies because he doesn't want to fork out the money for new models and doesn't want to spend the time converting. I've told him that I won't play him again just for that reason.

I would never start a nurgle army because I do not like the model choices, however, if I did, I would certainly do my best to use "counts as" models that represent the nurgle-esque nature of Death Guard but have more of a tech feel since I'm not into the grotesque part that is an essential aspect of their look. It would be about asthetics over function.

In my new Vostroyan army, there are no Melta gun troop models. I will be using the "counts as" proxy of my flamers as Meltas in certain units to start. I will be working toward conversions of these flamer models into melta models in time, as I finish the army. I've yet to encounter a person with a problem with that as my intention isn't to use "cheaper" models or to avoiding having to buy something new.

John M>Just remember that the soda bottle IS the carnifex.

Cruor Vault

11-23-2009, 12:14 PM

The only one I have issues with is the Daemons player. If someone is going to use such a large quantity of something so good, and there is an official model. Then there is no excuse for them to continue using the knights models and start a new army without converting or updating the knights to look appropriate for Daemons and to make sure they are on the correct size bases!.

Duke

11-23-2009, 12:23 PM

@ lobster: I like the differentiation on "proxy," vs. "counts as,"

I use the TH/SS termie from space hulk as "counts as Lysander," I put him on a termie base and nobody has a problem with it... However, right now I am trying out jump pack marines and before I go and buy 30 jump pack bits I wanted to proxy B.P CCW marines as "jump pack marines," though if I like them I plan on putting the pack on all of them.

Like I said in the OP it all comes down to intentions...

Duke

fuzzbuket

11-23-2009, 12:39 PM

with freinds fine and humorus for a playtest
with others competitivly NO

before i bought my rhino

=][=
you salamanders are commiting some form of HERSEY (no im not it a disguise and my drivers not green)
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt339/fuzzbuket/DSC00073.jpg

eagleboy7259

11-23-2009, 01:35 PM

You agreed to play the kid knowing he was proxying the models, so you can't really complain. If it bothers you then you can just turn down the opportunity to play him. Personally I have no problem with friends proxying models, because it's usually just for fun but if I'm going to game night at the store I am going to usually turn down that player who can't field a proper army.

Chumbalaya

11-23-2009, 01:40 PM

As long as everything is consistent, around the same size as it's supposed to be, and on the right base, it's all fair game to me.

Lerra

11-23-2009, 02:32 PM

I'd have no problems with playing converted Chaos Knights that count-as Bloodcrushers, as long as they look cool and are roughly the same size, with the same sized base. (btw, are bloodcrushers really on Dreadnought bases? I swear they were supposed to be on terminator bases . . .). If they are unpainted, haven't had any work done to make them fit into a Chaos Daemons army, etc. then that is sort of lame.

Personally, I'm impressed that someone is converting a whole mixed Chaos army to look mono-Khorne. That's a lot of work just to be fluffy. Also, the Fiend of Slaanesh model is *horrible* and I will buy a 40ker a beer just for converting something else so that I don't have to look at that atrocity that they call a model.

Ajjaxx

11-23-2009, 02:40 PM

I play guard, and I use stormtroopers as my imperial guard veterans with the grenadiers upgrade. However, IF I am using stormtroopers in addition to my veterans, it can indeed be confusing. One person at my game shop uses chaos knights in fantasy in place of blood knights in his Vampire counts army. TOTALLY understandable. Flip side is one other gamer at our shop uses tactical marines for EVERYTHING! These tactical marines are stern guard, these tacticals are honor guard, these tacticals are scouts, these tacticals are devastators with lascannons, and THESE tacticals are an inquisitor with his retinue. That is going WAY too far. If you use proxy's, try to make it simple for your opponent to remember exactly what you are fielding and even go as far as to write a list of proxies every game (ex. blue painted marines sternguard, red painted marines are vanguard and the ones in the rhino are normal tacticals) In moderation, proxies are fine, just don't go overboard.

BuFFo

11-23-2009, 02:40 PM

What I wanted to know is 'when is it too much?'

Simple.

When you, the opponent, decides its too much. Just say no.

Miggidy Mack

11-23-2009, 02:58 PM

There needs to be a clear line between Proxy and "Counts As".

A proxy model is something with the same base size that you use to try out an option you haven't bought yet. Once you've played a game or two with it then you should know if you want to buy it. A good proxy is the closest model you do have. For instance my friend didn't know if he wanted to play with Chaos Land Raiders in his undivided list. So he used two of my Land Raider Crusaders as a proxy for a few games before spending $100+ on a couple of his own.

A "Counts As" is a conversion army. Using all Storm Troopers and giving the units carapace armor is fine, but your storm trooper models better be converted to look VERY different. Or at the very least using Karskins as Storm Troopers and regular Storm Troopers as Veterans.

The Chaos Daemons player could make that work, but he would need to paint and convert more than just using other models.

Mike X

11-23-2009, 03:57 PM

While his Blood thirster is proxied by a Balrog ... I felt the Balrog proxiy was great...

My exgirlfriend played Chaos Space Marines and purposely used a Balrog as a greater daemon. It wasn't a proxy, it was what she wanted her greater daemon to look like, and I was completely fine with it.

However, the rest of what you said is pretty much too far. The sternguard might be okay, but... just get a friggin' tactical squad!

eagleboy7259

11-23-2009, 04:09 PM

A proxy model is something with the same base size that you use to try out an option you haven't bought yet. Once you've played a game or two with it then you should know if you want to buy it. A good proxy is the closest model you do have. For instance my friend didn't know if he wanted to play with Chaos Land Raiders in his undivided list. So he used two of my Land Raider Crusaders as a proxy for a few games before spending $100+ on a couple of his own.

If that were the line where all proxying stopped then there would be no problem with proxying. After all we can clearly see a Land Raider is a Land Raider, Chaos or not. A lot of the problems come in with true line of sight and footprints. Foot prints are the easiest to deal with since GW's line on that is the models must be on a base at least equal to the size of the base used in the standard kit since it effects the model's attributes in close combat. But even thats screwy, how about OOP Terminators? or even the current Terminator Captain? Terminators should be on the bigger base but he follows the GW rules....

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020020&prodId=prod1050241

However height of models in something weird to deal with since GW has guys kneeling, standing, (Rangers & Fire Warriors) people with scenic bases (Calgar) flying models like jetbikes and land speeders that offer different height flying bases, and OOP vs. Current (Terminators), and sometimes even current vs. current (Stealth Suits). Even official games are so inconsistent that I hardly ever get bent out of shape about the size of a model when playing against proxies. If I were up for a game against proxies a guy could use a soda bottle for a carnifex and I couldn't give two hoots because I'd have to agree to play that army in the first place.

And yes the blood crusher is on a dreadnought sized base - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1120033&prodId=prod1170209

MarshalAdamar

11-23-2009, 04:13 PM

I have a friend of mine that plays Chaos daemons and he uses the chaos knights as blood crushers and I think its fine.

He'd mounted them on the correct base, he has the instrument bearer modeled with an instrument, and the guy with fury is marked by his special sword. So I don't see the problem with someone who doesn't have 100$ to buy 4-5 blood crushers even if they never buy the “real” ones so long as they go through the effort to make them accurately represent the model they are replacing.

Same guy has models from pig iron studios. Long coats and gasmasks, they look like they are something equivalent to carapace armor they’re the right scale. The cut the front of two of their guns and added some melta barrels so we know who the melta gunners are I have to problem with those guys either, they look great.

In the end I think that what matters is that the “counts as models” are either

a) Temporary stand in's in which case I’m ok so long as they have the correct base and relative size and look of the model they represent.
b) Permanent models that are being used because the player thinks that they are better, cooler, and generally more wonderful than the GW stuff. HOWEVER if this is the case I expect them to be painted to the best ability of the owner, be on the right base size, have the right models size and clearly be able to be distinguished as the equivalent of the model it replaces

Example: Balrog on 60mm base = Bloodletter
Converted 1/35 scale WWI tank with appropriate conversion and bits = Ork Battlewagon

MajorSoB

11-23-2009, 04:31 PM

Good topic Duke!

My idea of whether or not to allow proxies seems black and white in my mind:

I would allow proxies if:

-someone is testing out a new army or unit for playability.
-the models being proxied are of similar size and base the same way as the models they represent.
-it is clear what they represent.
-"counts as" models fit the above requirements and fit into the theme of that army.
-they are being used by a younger player who cannot financially afford the proper models.

I would not allow proxies if:

-the models are the wrong size and based improperly.
-they are contradictory to theme of the army.
-its an ongoing issue, one game is fine but after several games buy the models!
-it is in a tournament and not preapproved by the judges. Fun games are one thing but if you have the money to play in tournaments for prizes you have the money to buy the proper models.

WYSIWIG is the best policy. It eliminates cheating and confusion. At the start of the game explain anything that is not 100% WYSIWIG. Ask you opponent if its OK to use something, most often the answer is "Yes", but dont show up with beer bottles for drop pods, green army men glued to bases or falcons whittled out of packing foam, duct tape and toilet paper rolls and expect that to be alright, buy the freaking models!

ForeverHero

11-23-2009, 05:12 PM

As I play at the same store as Duke, I’m all too aware of the players in question; both are young adults but their hobbies are funded by their parental units.

The Guard player in question has over-converted his models to the point where it is very hard to differentiate them from one another. To expand on this I recently played this person and he is using a space marine model to represent Colonel Straken. I initially thought that he was running an Inquisitor and when I asked if that was the case, he corrected me and stated that it was in fact Colonel Straken. He commented that Straken has the same stats as a space marine and that is why he used it. I disagreed and explained that he should have converted a guard model instead of using the space marine as that is misleading to your opponents. He got upset at me when I recommended that he obtain the correct model; asked if it was just temporary and he stated that he had no intentions of replacing it.

The Chaos player, as Duke has mentioned, is running Chaos Knights as Bloodcrushers and has close to a year to obtain the correct models. My opinion is that he should have used the larger bases for the models and then spent the pats years working on purchasing the correct models. He is a good player but in my opinion, by not using the correct base size, is skewing the game to his favor. By using the smaller bases he can bring them onto the board into a smaller area thus avoiding a possible mishap, etc.

I can understand when there is one or two models being proxied, I do it myself from time to time with my SM Dev squad. However, I clearly notify my opponent before each shooting phase and at the beginning of the game what is proxied. I also make sure to not have more that one or two models being proxied at a time. It is one thing to proxy a unit for testing purposes but a whole other issue to have an entire unit or several units proxied. Anyone remember, Dr. Pepper-Fex?

Cheers,

FH

ForeverHero

11-23-2009, 05:20 PM

MajorSoB

11-23-2009, 06:04 PM

I agree with your post FH.

This is the reason that many people and clubs just say no to proxies because once you allow one you begin sliding down a slippery slope that seems to have no bottom. I also understand the difference between a 12 yr old who uses what he has access to and a veteran who has used Chaos Knights for over a year with no intention to replace them. Simply put I would refuse to play him until the proper models appear in his army. I would tell him I understand all too well what he is doing and if he cannot afford the models at this point then dont play the army. You also could show up with a dozen or so bricks and say its your mech guard army. Tape some straws to the top and you got some dirt cheap chimeras. Use this special army only when you play this player, I am sure he will take the hint. Heck loan out this army to anyone else who wants to play him, I know I would!

Old_Paladin

11-23-2009, 06:52 PM

Oh, one other item I forgot, the Guard player over-converted a Leman Russ that was just a little too much for me and I did not allow him to use that in our game. He went for a Tank Destroyer look by swapping locations of the battle-cannon and the lascannon. At first I thought he was going to use the IA rules for the Tank Destroyer so I asked how he intended use it and he said it was a regular Russ. In game terms, the battle cannon has 360-degree traverse while the lascannon is only front-facing; he intended use line of sight all around for the lascannon so I said no.

See, I wouldn't mind this conversion; as it has some give and take. The single-shot BS:3 lascannon might have some better ability compared to normal, but the much better battlecannon is now more limited (with a fixed arc and lower line of sight; cannot be hulldown and firing the main gun).
Ask any tank historian; which was the better tank. The M3 Lee or the M4 Sherman.

Now, if he wanted a pintle-mounted lascannon, I could see the problem.

oni

11-23-2009, 07:10 PM

"When it isn't OK any more" implies that it's OK to begin with. No proxies in my games, no exceptions. You will respect me as a player by not bringing that **** to the tabletop just as I will respect you as a player by not bringing that **** to the tabletop.

If you choose to insult me by using proxies then you'll be playing either my...

Imperial Guard
http://www.mastgeneralstore.com/prodimages/4674-DEFAULT-l.jpg

or my...

Tyranids
http://www.bumblekids.com/products/Balancing_Bug_Stacker1591.jpg

The choice is yours.

Talon57x

11-23-2009, 10:02 PM

See, I wouldn't mind this conversion; as it has some give and take. The single-shot BS:3 lascannon might have some better ability compared to normal, but the much better battlecannon is now more limited (with a fixed arc and lower line of sight; cannot be hulldown and firing the main gun).
Ask any tank historian; which was the better tank. The M3 Lee or the M4 Sherman.

Now, if he wanted a pintle-mounted lascannon, I could see the problem.

Sherman by far.

As for proxies/counts-as, what my gaming group's unwritten rule is that if it is Citadel or FW from the same/similar army, or if the person has put converting effort into it, or if it just looks cool, then we allow it. Usually the army theme must be cohesive. One of our guys also does the Balrog-as-Greater-Daemon thing, and because it fits and looks good we are fine with it.

In my gaming group, it is not as much about the rules as it is about the look, fluff, and "feel" of an army. We have a term for attempts to s t r e t c h the counts-as/proxy unwritten rules: It's a shoebox Baneblade.

Brass Scorpion

11-23-2009, 10:46 PM

Some of the worst proxies I've seen or heard of either because they are too hard to keep track of or because they totally destroy the visual appeal of the hobby or both:
- A tissue box (e.g., Kleenex) for a Land Raider
- Drink bottles (e.g., Gatorade) for Drop Pods. It's really bad if they just finished drinking from the bottle and the label is still on it.
- Lasgun for heavy weapon (e.g., this guy with a lasgun is really a lascannon, autocannon, etc.)
- Empty black plastic bases with the name of the troop type written on them
- Empty black plastic bases with nothing at all on them.

If someone is just trying something out this way short-term to see if they want to buy it that's one thing, but beyond that it's a nuisance at the very least and should be stamped out as an affront to the hobby. ;)

lobster-overlord

11-23-2009, 11:01 PM

Ok, the baby toys as Tyranids gave me such a good laugh that I almost woke up my 3 year old.

@FH: Yes, I remember the Dr. Pepper Fex (see my previous post after my name-sig).

I agree whole heartedly with the concept that if it follows the theme and is cohesive with the army then it should almost always be allowed (footprint/size not withstanding).

In my Vostroyan army, I am wanting to go with general Vost look for the units. Those I don't have, I will build. However, for my Apoc IG army, I'm a little more free with it, but my intention is to still have cohesive units. For my Troops, I'm expanding with Cadians. I have some old Viridian models from Void 1.1 which will make great Conscripts. Keeping the colors the same will make them cohesive. However, my Penal unit is a gang of Eschers from Necromunda, as I still have those floating around. Now comes the hard part. What makes a suitable Chimera for a penal unit from a hive world? Not a chimera for sure. So I will be proxying a chimera with a kitted out Ork War Trukk. No ork bitz, but a multi laser, pintle stubber, open back with extra armor and spots for firing points. The spirit of the chimera are there, the foot print is essentially the same. The capacity is roughly the same, adn it fits thematically with the unit it will be attached to.

Our store is pretty good about things. There's only that one Tyranid player that's a douche.

John M>

Morgrim

11-24-2009, 03:25 AM

I have used a wingless balrog as a proxy for a talos, when I was testing it out over an afternoon of gaming. Friend was fine. Friend actually suggested it because he wanted to see what happened when a furioso fights a talos. (If the talos doesn't have backup, it loses. Badly.)

I now have a talos in my standard kabal army. However, I do not use the talos model as I dislike it and it doesn't fit the theme of the rest of my army. I use a converted fantasy dark elf hydra instead. I do not feel this is 'proxy', but 'counts as'. Size wise, a hydra facing backwards is roughly the same size and shape (if you discount the tail) as a talos. If anything, the hydra is slightly larger; this is an advantage to my opponent, not me. All shooting attacks are meant to come from the sting, so I measure from the middle head. This is nice and obvious, and as a bonus is about the same height as the talos model on the supplied flying base. The large flying base has a footprint identical to a dreadnaught base, which my hydra is on.

On the WYSIWYG side, my hydra actually follows it more closely than the original model. Up to 6 shots going in different directions make more sense when it is because you have gun mounts on multiple heads that are all facing in different directions. And D6 attacks in CC works fine as 'claws with blades + whichever heads are able to bite something'. It also stops people thinking that the talos is a skimmer when under 5th ed rules it is a monstrous creature.

Granted, it isn't painted to the quality of my army yet, it is a WIP mixture of metal, resin, plastic, brass and greenstuff. I'm still armouring him, but as I tend to only play with friends I've never had an issue, and the GW redshirts think it awesome when I'm sitting in there sculpting on it. I'm saddened by those few people that say I can't use it 'because it isn't the official model' but most of them are jerks I wouldn't play anyway. I'm as far as one can get from a powergamer or tourni player, though, so in the long run it isn't bothering me.

Vogon

11-24-2009, 10:37 AM

Morgrim, do you have a link to your Dark Eldar army? I'm slowly building one myself and I'd love to see how you're getting on.

I too dislike the talos miniature and am thinking about converting something.

Cheers

Vogon

Lord Azaghul

11-24-2009, 10:42 AM

"When it isn't OK any more" implies that it's OK to begin with. No proxies in my games, no exceptions. You will respect me as a player by not bringing that **** to the tabletop just as I will respect you as a player by not bringing that **** to the tabletop.

The choice is yours.

I once knew a girl (and by girl I mean adult female) who played chaos daemons using 'my little pony' dolls and toys. I'm not kidding you. The entire army was made of this. To many of us this was too far - clearly - absolutely nothing was to scale.

Lerra

11-24-2009, 12:20 PM

That is hilarious! The first time, at least.

I would derive great pleasure from shooting My Little Ponies to bits.

Duke

11-24-2009, 02:31 PM

Well, Im fairly happy to see how long this thread is going... Though sad in the same sentence because it means that Im not the only one.

I was thinking as I was reading...

1. Showing up with cheap proxies and having no intention of ever getting the right models kinda ticks me off cause I spend a lot of money trying to get the right army. I love the look of two fully painted WYSIWYG armies on the table, I spend a lot of time making my armies as close to that as I can. When someone shows up with pieces of paper marked "10 CHOSEN, PWep, Melta, melta." It is almost an insult to my time and money.

2. Sometimes I want to ask people if they would show up to a RC airplane club with a paper airplane and say "This is a RC P-51,"... Ummm, no it isn't!

Duke

RedScorpionsGirl

11-24-2009, 10:21 PM

Here's one that keeps getting brought up at our store by one that we refer to as "The Agitator".

Space Marines riding High Elf Lions as mounts...Counting as Thunderwolves

Random lion models to make fenrisian wolf packs.

White Lion models, counting as either wolf guard or regular marines... and the list goes on...

He wants to field a lion based version of marines using space wolf rules.

Our local tourney also says models must be 75 percent GW models. He wants to use reaper/misc models for wolf packs because GW doesn't make a lion model that size. (Umm..the unit entry does say Fenrisian Wolves) He's already been told a no go for tournaments with non GW models, and friendly games are just that, whatever your opponent allows you to field you can. We had to reinstate this ruling after we had someone that ran a SW Drop Pod list with 12 Pods, that were entirely paper, not a plastic model in sight, and also the same individual has IG that almost every tank is made of cardboard, yes I said cardboad. They flat out said they wouldn't spend the money on the models, because "GW says these are perfectly legal" even after the store owner/TO told him he couldn't use those, they were considered a proxy. With the tanks, it was almost impossible to figure out what they were, as they looked like tissue boxes with toilet paper tubes on them. (seriously)

In regard to the examples.
The first two are silly.
The IG player, if they use elysians, or something that is very different to show what units are storm troopers, not so bad.
The Sternguard models, well, if they have no sternguard in the army, they aren't confusing their opponent or misleading them. Also, they do make great sgt. models too. I actually have the powerfist model as my Red Scorpions Sgt, so that the apothecary is very obvious and I am not trying to mislead my opponent, as this is my tournament army.

Rapture

11-24-2009, 11:25 PM

"The Agitator".

Space Marines riding High Elf Lions as mounts...Counting as Thunderwolves

Random lion models to make fenrisian wolf packs.

White Lion models, counting as either wolf guard or regular marines... and the list goes on...

He wants to field a lion based version of marines using space wolf rules.

I fail to see any problem with that at all, especially since there is one one metal, ugly GW model.

Alrik_40000

11-25-2009, 12:10 AM

Well, for starters, I wouldn't mind the Elf Lions as T-wolf cav, as long as the player was making their own spinoff chapter and using a lion theme. (As I type this, the image of a chapter or company of feral Dark Angels comes to mind!) I see something that is clearly a Space WOLF astride a LION, though, and I'm gonna shake my head because you're being lazy. If you can't find a suitable replacement for your Wolf Guard to ride, then you haven't been combing the internet. There's a link on this very forum with some very good wolves for you to buy.

One of the major problems I have with GW, though, is that they don't give you the models for all the new stuff in the codex until well after the book drops. How long did Marine players have to wait for Ironclads? There is, at the moment, no way to play Thunderwolf cavalry with 100% GW models. The closest things are some models from Fantasy, but some are too small, and some are too Chaosey. I don't personally care if GW made your wolves or not, as long as they're wolves and not something else.

My brother plays Guard and runs Inquisitorial Allies sometimes. He likes using some of the models from Reaper and even the Anima line as Inquisitors and retinue, which I think is cool. The models look good, and a lot of them don't require much conversion to be very "40K". He can't take that to a tourney, though, but he accepts that and is willing to play with the GW models at official events, even though he doesn't like them as much.

Those are the rules though. If they say no third-party models, don't gripe. You should have known that going in to it. Unless you were just trying to get one over on your opponents and the organizers. For that you should burn like the heretic scum you are.

Speaking of burning things, that's exactly what would happen to Mr. Arts-and-Crafts' paper pods and cardboard Russes if it were up to me! Just give me hairspray and a lighter... how's THAT for a Firestorm attack! Burn heretic scum! :D Let's call it like it is - that guy just wants to come off cheap and still get his jollies off playing 40k. Too bad, you gotta pay to play. I don't care that you claim someone from the company said they were legal - that's crap and he knows it! He's just trying to see how far he can push the envelope. Besides, we all know that if you asked Jervis, Alessio, Jes, and Graham the same question you'd get four different answers.

I'd throw the cheap bum out of my store anyway, if I ran one. Part of the reason people hold tourneys is that they hope you'll buy something while you're there. Your entry fee for the tourney isn't going in his pocket, that's for prize support usually. They want people to hang out, have fun, play some cool people, and buy stuff. He clearly isn't interested in buying much, so if the store owner got rid of him, he wouldn't be losing much revenue and "The Agitator" would be out of everyone's hair.

That's my two cents though. Rant over.

BTW Redscorpion, I do the same thing with my Sternguard, using them as vet sarges in squads when not playing them as their own unit. Works pretty awesome, and you have some very characterful guys in there!

As long as that power fist doesn't suddenly become a lightning claw.... ;) Lulz!

Talon57x

11-25-2009, 01:38 AM

I'd throw the cheap bum out of my store anyway, if I ran one. Part of the reason people hold tourneys is that they hope you'll buy something while you're there. Your entry fee for the tourney isn't going in his pocket, that's for prize support usually. They want people to hang out, have fun, play some cool people, and buy stuff. He clearly isn't interested in buying much, so if the store owner got rid of him, he wouldn't be losing much revenue and "The Agitator" would be out of everyone's hair.

I have to agree. 40k is a hobby of mutual support. We support GW and game stores, the game stores provide us with a place to play and socialize, and GW creates cool minis and writes (IMO) fair, balanced rules. We all win.

I am fine with a small amount of non-GW stuff in games, but generally when I play someone I expect them to have put about as much time and money into this great game as I have. To me, showing up and playing with paper Drop Pods, cardboard Leman Russes, and soda bottle Tyranids against a well-converted and painted army shows a lack of respect for the hobby, the opponents, and GW.

Mike X

11-25-2009, 02:04 AM

I once knew a girl (and by girl I mean adult female) who played chaos daemons using 'my little pony' dolls and toys. I'm not kidding you. The entire army was made of this. To many of us this was too far - clearly - absolutely nothing was to scale.

Wait... the chick used My Little Pony toys, and your only gripe is that they weren't to scale?!

Lerra

11-25-2009, 02:42 AM

If you can't find a suitable replacement for your Wolf Guard to ride, then you haven't been combing the internet. . . . I don't personally care if GW made your wolves or not, as long as they're wolves and not something else.

A lot of stores require you to field models that are at least 75% made of GW parts. So if you play in one of these stores, or even if you occasionally visit, you are stuck with either undersized wolves or non-wolf models as your only GW options. The undersized wolves are a lot cheaper but they look pretty ridiculous. Imo, the lion models are the best that I've seen, especially if you have the sculpting talent to make your own wolf heads for the lion bodies. Most people don't have that level of skill, though, and I'm not going to hold that against them. Sculpting at that level is going beyond the call of duty.

I'm discounting the idea of buying a dozen Canis Wolfborn models because that's just silly.

Wolfshade

11-25-2009, 03:16 AM

I think Melissia at the start of this thread summed it up very nicely

1. Similar Size/shape
2. Consistency
3. Similar theme
4. A reason

The reason is the hard one, not being able to afford the minatures is one thing, and something I struggle with, in which case I don't build my army using bits that I don't have (though this is easily done with a 12k point BA army, not so easily done with 2k of eldar or 500pts of orks).

Not having time to paint is something else, you make time for the game, so why not just throw them down unpainted at least then the size and shape are the same, we know instantly what we are looking at. In the scheme of things unpainted is a lesser crime than un-purchased.

Trying something new, this is the only acceptable one and is in friendly games you agree what is going to be proxied, you agree what the proxy is and represnets and if you are not happy suggest an alternative, ooh I've got one of those you can borrow it for the game.

A friend of mine proxied some units for his eldar, we agreed that this was going to be the case and we played two or three games using similar sized bits from his eldar collection and the proxy was the same for each time. After he was happy with it he started to replace the proxies with the real things at one point it got slightly confusing when he had 6 skimmers all without "tops" but we denoted the differences between waveserpent and fireprism (fireprisms had a heavy weapon platform balanced on the top of them).

I think the big thing is if I want to play WH40K, I want to play it and use only GW minatures because they are 40k, not my little pony or coke-can drop pods. The stores I've played in have a rule, if it ain't GW it ain't on the board, the most extreme a persistant offender (who had been warned about this numerous times) had his units of skeletons removed from play.

Duke

11-25-2009, 10:58 AM

Im not one that will push 100% GW models (I think 75% is about right). I love it when people convert things all interesting like. Generally I have a problem when I have to ask over and over again what something is because it isn't obvious. The non-GW models should be very easily recognized for what they are proxying.

Here is a new one at My FLGS. A couple of Daemon players have been using Cold Ones painted in Slannessh colours to stand in for Fiends... Im on the fence with this one. They are the right size, they are painted right, they are on the right bases and fiends do look 'horselike,' so it isn't a huge divergence from the original model... The one guy says he does it this way because he doesn't like the way the actual models look (I don't blame him there)... Thoughts?

Duke

Mystery.Shadow

11-25-2009, 01:07 PM

The way I see it, if I can INSTANTLY recognize what the scratch-build or kitbash model it is SUPPOSED TO BE then I find it a-ok in my book. If I have to second-guess WHAT it may be, I say no-go.

No matter what % of it is GW or not.

Not going to Threadomancer anything, but....

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Ok, what do you think about these Non-GW Models/Scratch Builds/Counts-As ?

Such as this Harridan:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/EntireHiveFleet/11060011.JPG.html

Or this Trygon:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/01011042.jpg

Or this Warlord Titan:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-WarLordTitan.jpg

Or this Ork Fighta-Bomma:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/AnotherApocalypseGame/01011054.JPG.html

Or this Ork BattleWagon:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/19kApocalypse/10040003.JPG.html

Or this Dark Angels Thunderhawk:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-ThunderhawkWIP17.jpg

So, what's everyone's opinions of those? Go ahead, let um fly!!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Woah! And NO Threadomancy!!
(Sorta)

Duke

11-25-2009, 01:20 PM

@Mystery Shadow.

Harridan: Yes. I like that, I knew right away what it was.

Trygon: Though it might take a second to register, the size is right on that trygon (maybe a little too tall.) and it does look like something that would burrow.

Warlord: Umm, no no and wait.... NO. Cardboard does not a Titan make! Nice try though.

Fightabomba: Im on the fence with this one... I would normally say no, but it's orks were talking about so it could just as easily be a yes, and it looks like some thought went into it so I would probably allow it. (PS- Paint pots as VTOL engines, lol)

BattleWagon: No, too big. Funny name though

Thunderhawk: 100% yes. No doubt there. (Assuming the size is right, I can't tell)

Duke

lobster-overlord

11-25-2009, 07:07 PM

The only one from that list that I wouldn't agree with is the Warlord. It's a Toilet Paper Golem. Everything else is pretty cool by me. and that Fightabomba is very cool.

Lerra

11-25-2009, 11:38 PM

The fightabomba made me laugh out loud when I realized it was a looted rhino with wings. That is very orky and was clearly done because the creator thought it would be better/funnier than the original model. A+ for a creative idea.

I'd play against all of those except the toilet tube titan and the battlewagon that's the wrong size.

Denzark

11-26-2009, 06:41 AM

I find this difficult sometimes - I am a fan of mking things from other companies look like part of the 40K universe. For example, maybe warzone/mutant chronicle minis - with weapon swap, maybe a helmet and a chaos backpack - can look pretty good.

Current projects of mine - I am ebaying WFB empire militia to use as conscripts - will give lasguns etc and lose the spears. Fluff is that the IG has literally grabbed a load of peasants - givn them weapons and sent them into battle, a la enemy at the gate. Is this bad?

Also, I have a dislike of wolves. I am intending to use the giant bear from the Kislevite king chappy for thunderwolf, and old goblin wolf riders or the original freki/geri for wolves - I think the new plastic ones are ****e.

Is this all bad?

I appreciate if i stray into another company's minis i can't take them to a GW tourny - more than happy with that and I though GW at the Throne of Skulls showed great latitude with my scratch built 'jabba the nurgle defiler' - clearly 50% toy, 30% defiler/ 20% miliput and 100% filthsome disease.