The further joys of Warhammer....

[Mr Mystery]

To follow up on the thread about why I love the current edition, a thread about why I absolutely love the background, compared to 40k....

1. 40k has a bigger setting. Warhammer is just a single world. This to my mind makes things more personal, and on a kind of ego trip way, makes me feel my victories actually matter in the grander scheme of things!

2. We have the best villains. Hands down. Think about it. 40k has Chaos (oh no. Chaos. Grr! Destroy! Smash!). Necrons (cool, but not especially creepy or overly malicious), Nids (no personality, all part of their appeal though) and Dark Eldar (who are of course cool). What do we have? SKAVEN BABY! Quite possibly the greatest Fantasy bad guys ever invented. They're selfish! They're greedy! They're completely unhinged and far more of a threat to themself and each other than anyone else!. They successfully combine slightly ludicrous Fantasy and Victoriana tropes into one race, without seeming contrived. Every Skaven Warlord or Greyseer is a moustache twirling ego maniac, suitably back up by murderous and disloyal underlings of various levels of competence. They think nothing of employing ridiculously dangerous weaponry! Seriously, what's not to like about Skaven as a fantasy race? They've even managed to make Steampunk non-ridiculous, on account they have Steampunk stuff, which in a fit of random sense making, is far, far more likely to kill the user than the target! And is actually explained away as part tech, part Magic, and no, they're not entirely sure how either!

3. Much like the Skaven, the Warhammer World is a curious hodge podge of influences, from the obvious Tolkein overtones (good luck creating a Fantasy setting without that!), to historical ones. With some careful force selection, you can play a straight up 'what if' type historical setting (like Empire v Brets, to find out exactly why Black Powder did for fully armoured cavalry....). None of it is particularly original (barring Skaven, far as I'm aware), but it is an original combination, and a lot of fun to explore!

4. Smaller world - Bigger heroes. Simple as. In 40k, nobody can save a planet single handed. Gotrek Gurnisson? Regular. Basis. Felix Jaeger too!

So, your turn now! SHOUT IT OUT BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

[Kirsten]

not a skaven fan myself, I like the idea of them, but they are in my opinion the only race in any format consistently overpowered in their army books. very cheap troops yet they have average or better stats, low leadership utterly negated by large ranks which is easy with the cheap troops. cheap powerful ranged weaponry, jezzails are ridiculous. it is the one army which can field huge combat units, loads of magic, loads of shooting, and warmachines all together in one modest points army. so that rather spoils the race for me. current models are amazing though, look much more malicious than before.

I much prefer the fantasy chaos/daemon fluff set up than the 40k one, it is more interesting, the 40k one feels a lot more watered down. haven't read the new daemon fantasy book so that might have changed, but the original book, and the warriors of chaos books, have to me been much better written than their 40k equivalents. Also, fantasy has chaos dwarfs. and mongol ogres.

[Mr Mystery]

I just love their character and styling! Rules wise, I'd be happy if they were an army you needed to win with, before it manages to job itself whilst the enemy looks on in bemusement!

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Unexplored horizons.
Simply put.
Somehow WFB leaves you with the feeling that there's as much untouched as there is in 40k, and yet it's just one world.
Oh and WFRP, which makes the 40k ones look rubbish.

[eldargal]

I agree. It was rather sad to hear FW talk about how 'writing WFB is much more difficult because in 40k you can wipe out a whole star system but in WFB you just have the one world', talk about missing the point. You don't NEED world shattering events in WFB, the background is so rich and intimate you can write a story about, say, a Bretonnian crusade to Nehekhara which snowballs into a kind of world war with all the factions getting involved because it is so feasible, if you want a global campaign style thing. In 40k you have the trouble of involving all the factions like that. Why are the Tau getting involved in an Eye of Terror campaign? Why are the Necrons? It gets very contrived and incestuous.
But even if you take a smaller focus like the IA books you can still have much more variety.

Bretonnian crusade against Dark Elf slavers
Empire expedition to Lustria
OnG invade Skaven fortress
Tomb Kings assault Naggaroth for Reasons
Ogre tribe invades a Tomb Principality
High Elf outpost attacked by WoC
etc.

All could be turned into compelling campaigns books and easily bring in extra factions if need be without having to threaten the fabric of existence. The idea of resorting to 'teh ends of the wurld!' to engage players is really feeling like a bit of a crutch.

The intimacy is advantageous in other ways too. I've plotted out a list of all my Nuln countess' non-contiguous land holdings and her main estate in Nuln with size, population, notable personages, what they produce, taxes paid etc. Some of the villages which have features in my groups narrative campaigns have their entire population (50-60 people) named with backstories. You can go into some pretty specific detail in 40k of course but not like that. The scale is too vast. That can't be John Smiths home because it's a massive apartment complex. Who cares who lived there, the whole sector is aflame with billions dead.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

The actual truth of the Forgeworld thing is that Warhammer Forge is in a kind of limbo state. It was conceived as a way to get a certain somebody back into the GW fold.
And when that certain somebody did exactly what they'd said they wouldn't, caused huge internal friction, threw their toys out of the pram and left it left forgeworld with a problem. Because although it had barely produced anything WF had resurrected an abandoned race and move the story line forward all in one book.
They've been furiously back-pedaling ever since, but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
ROCK : GW Corporate fears change, and Warhammer Forge was established as an agent of change.
HARD PLACE : GW Customers LOVED change, and they love WF's creations. That means GW can't just kill it.
Solution, distract people with a billion 30K models until they forget how good WF was, then return with a watered down mandate.
Again, I'm cynical today.

[eldargal]

The sad thing is the original brief was flawed from the start in my opinion, no offense to Rick Priestley intended. Tamurkhan was great, yes. But the idea behind it committed us to FOUR virtually identical stories. Chaos attacking, killing all the peoples and meeting up at Altdorf for the final battle which they would win. That struck me as rather tedious

I don't think 30k was a distraction though, it was something everyone wanted them to do eventually and they genuinely seemed to underestimate demand for it. It's certainly hurt WF but I don't think it was deliberate. I was looking forward to Battle for Black Fire Pass but I have to admit I was really hoping they would go down a more original route next time.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

No it wasn't, but it's totally sidelined production of the WF stuff because it's now eating up all of Forgeworld's resources.
And I doubt that that was unintentional.
It's kind of ignored that the Cathayans, for example, hold Chaos at bay in a major way. That'd have made an epic second book and new army without it being dull.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I've also always found that Warhammer has a kind of narrative oomph to it that 40k sometimes lacks. It's easy to come up with compelling reasons for battles - defend the river! Ambush in the forests! Attack the baggage train! Break the siege! - and also fun background for armies. As a result, it's a dream to write up campaign ideas for.

I mean, it helps that I'm a huge, insufferable nerd for classical/medieval history, but there's an awful lot to work with in Fantasy.

[eldargal]

Yeah that's what I mean about being unoriginal. Chaos Dwarfs were nice and everything but if they had done something like a Chaos and Chaos Stuntie invasion of Cathay will, I don't know, an Empire Knightly crusade sent to help that could have generated a lot more interest than Yet-Another-Seemingly-Immortal-chaos-Lord-Who-Dies.

[Kirsten]

personally I think fantasy is easier to relate to than sci fi as well, it has roots in history, it takes inspiration from common faerie tales, things people are exposed to growing up regardless of whether or not they are gamers.

[Mr Mystery]

That's a fair point :)

I'm particularly enjoying the Time of Legends series. Without meaning to knock the Heresy, which I also adore, the more defined nature of the various trilogies I find more satisfyin, especially The Sundering which was frankly brilliant!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Here's another thing. It's a place where every faction can legitimately fight every other faction, including itself, without feeling weird. This isn't always the case in 40k, especially with the sheer number of Space Marine armies out there. That can get boring, and it doesn't get my narrative juices flowing.

[ACE01]

For me it's the humour. It seems that Warhammer is still intended for the slightly older gamer in terms of setting, as it has managed to retain some of that quintessentially British humour. Yes it has been watered down a little (I'm looking at you, Lizardmen) but it's still more light hearted than the grimmest grimdark of the 41st millennium. The aforementioned Skaven & some silly Orc stuff comes to mind, but the whole setting feels much more petty and comical.

The extra dose of history is also a plus for me (though I wish there were rules bonuses for utilising formations, forming line/column/square etc).

I still love me some Grimdark, both suit depending on my mood.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The thing is that one could water down the Lizardmen significantly and STILL have them full of silly puns. I think you're right.

Yeah, history is also a big impetus for me (I work on medieval northern Europe). I'm not really into modern military history and so the Imperial Armour campaigns don't quite resonate as much as Warhammer battles and campaigns can. :)

[ACE01]

The Skinks don't mind being watered down, the Saurus however have somewhat drier humours...

Hur hur.

[Wildeybeast]

Picking on Mystery's point about baddies, I love how there aren't actually that many full on bad guys or indeed good guys. I've recently finished reading the final book of the Nagash trilogy and that illustrates it brilliantly. The Skaven want Nagash's warpstone for their own nefarious purposes, yet get wind of his plan to destroy all life and despite their internal plotting, find themselves cast as heroes attempting to stop him. Whilst the Empire valiantly hold back the Forces of Darkness, they aren't above gold fuelled jaunts to Nekekhara or pointless internal border disputes over long forgotten slights. The Lizardmen almost single handedly hold back Chaos, yet think nothing of obliterating an entire race on a dubious interpretation of a corroded plaque. Ogres destroy anything they come across unless it gives them food. And so on. 40K is much more black and white. It has to be when you are dealing with galaxy spanning empires, you just don't have that scope for the more personal nuances you get with Warhammer.

[eldargal]

The intimacy of WFB is one of its great strengths, sadly it is also one that requires a bit more interest to be able to grasp. 40k is really easy to pick up because while there is great depth to the setting it is also fairly easy to grasp the essentials quite quickly and get a feel for it. WFB is subtler, which isn't to say WFB really is for more mature people I think that is a bit snobby but it lacks the (good kind of) simplicity that 40k has.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. I'd say that Warhammer isn't so much aimed at a more mature gamer, but it does appear to attract them. Part of this will be because most people get started with 40k, then get into Warhammer. As such, you will have a greater 'per capita' count of experienced gamers.

But I'll play anyone. I'm a dirty gaming slag me! Handful of dice and I'm anybody's!