Nuclear Daemon Launch Codes

[DWest]

6th Edition seems to be the edition of "roll a bunch of dice to start the game", and Chaos Daemons are one of the worst offenders in that regard, to the point that when I play my Daemons, I try to take CSM as my primary detachment just to minimize how much stuff I can bring that needs rolled. Last time I brought Daemons to a tourney at the FLGS though, the TO made a suggestion that I've been thinking about, and I want to see how it sounds to other players.

The idea is, make up a list of all the things I need to roll for in my army on a strip of paper, or at least all the Rewards and such, and then pre-roll them in front of the judge. The "nuclear launch codes" part comes into play by doing something like either leaving the filled-out strips with the TO and just getting one from him at the start of each game or making up 1 or 2 more strips than there are matches that day and picking one at random. The only sticking point I can see is doing psychic powers; completely pre-rolling powers might leave me in a really bad spot depending on what army I fight, but once I've seen what rolls I have, I could easily game the power system for a big advantage. Any thoughts?

[Aventine]

6th Edition seems to be the edition of "roll a bunch of dice to start the game", and Chaos Daemons are one of the worst offenders in that regard, to the point that when I play my Daemons, I try to take CSM as my primary detachment just to minimize how much stuff I can bring that needs rolled. Last time I brought Daemons to a tourney at the FLGS though, the TO made a suggestion that I've been thinking about, and I want to see how it sounds to other players.

The idea is, make up a list of all the things I need to roll for in my army on a strip of paper, or at least all the Rewards and such, and then pre-roll them in front of the judge. The "nuclear launch codes" part comes into play by doing something like either leaving the filled-out strips with the TO and just getting one from him at the start of each game or making up 1 or 2 more strips than there are matches that day and picking one at random. The only sticking point I can see is doing psychic powers; completely pre-rolling powers might leave me in a really bad spot depending on what army I fight, but once I've seen what rolls I have, I could easily game the power system for a big advantage. Any thoughts?

Your solution sounds more complicated and involves some effort (if minimal) on the art of the TO.
The fastest and best way I have seen Daemon players do it is by making up a sheet with all their characters with rolls, with each table with check boxes. They then laminate that and use it with a marker. That way you are just pointing at a table, rolling, marking, and moving on... no reading involved.

[DWest]

The fastest and best way I have seen Daemon players do it is by making up a sheet with all their characters with rolls, with each table with check boxes. They then laminate that and use it with a marker. That way you are just pointing at a table, rolling, marking, and moving on... no reading involved.

That's approximately what we were trying to figure out, just with a prerolled slug of numbers. I will have to keep this idea in mind for next time I play the Daemons, thanks :)

[daboarder]

I think the only way to make that fair DWest would be to do it for all psychic powers and other pre-game rolls as well. its also an inherent part of the balance in the daemon codex, you wouldn't want a guy to roll up the optimal combination and just crump all his opponents every game due to it not changing.

[DWest]

I think I might have failed to fully explain what I was trying to do, the plan was multiple sets of numbers, and pick one at random (or shuffle the actual strips and let the opponent pick one) so that it changes every game. Psychic powers might still be a little messy, although realistically, there's usually That One Power in each discipline you want.

[daboarder]

I think I might have failed to fully explain what I was trying to do, the plan was multiple sets of numbers, and pick one at random (or shuffle the actual strips and let the opponent pick one) so that it changes every game. Psychic powers might still be a little messy, although realistically, there's usually That One Power in each discipline you want.

Even with that method your significantly limiting the inherent variability of the army. Furthermore, how would you handle the primaris gifts? would you allow the player to decide based upon opponent which power to swap out? because then they would just "tailor" the list they pulled for the opponent, as opposed to the current system where they must choose after each single roll whether to swap out, meaning they may not have full knowledge of what the rest of the gifts they get will be.

Ultimatey the system would be probably more complicated to actually implement than the current one, as each new player would have to learn an entirely new way of playing the army just for that tournament.

[DWest]

This is why I brought the idea here, I'd rather hash it out as a theoretical before inflicting it upon any actual other players.

I wonder if it would be possible to color-code rewards and whatnot to specific dice, so I can chuck a bunch at once?

[Mr Mystery]

Just accept the table as is.

40k isn't a game designed for competition. It's a narrative game.

If you need to roll that many dice in a game, roll that many dice in a game.

[SotonShades]

I think I might have failed to fully explain what I was trying to do, the plan was multiple sets of numbers, and pick one at random (or shuffle the actual strips and let the opponent pick one) so that it changes every game. Psychic powers might still be a little messy, although realistically, there's usually That One Power in each discipline you want.

So you want to go from rolling the dice and reading those numbers, to just having a list of numbers? I'm not sure I see how much time this saves. If you know your numbers and than pick the order in which you chose to 'roll' for things, you then essentially get to chose what you have. I can see people taking longer over that (trying to find the optimal point for each model to 'roll'/pick from the list) than the actual random rolling.

I think I see what you are trying to get at, but I don't think this is the way to go about it.

[Aegwymourn]

Just accept the table as is.

40k isn't a game designed for competition. It's a narrative game.

If you need to roll that many dice in a game, roll that many dice in a game.


Because even if he wasn't playing competitively nobody has ever been pressed for time while playing due to the store closing or trying to get as many games in on their day off as possible.

I think you are on to something with perhaps having separate colored dice matched up to your sheet for each character? That way it could say something like Exalted reward (green die) -. At least that way you just toss the lot and are done with it.

[Mr Mystery]

I have an Ork army.

Man, I have to roll so many dice. I know, why don't I just roll all my attacks before the game, and use that all the time?

[DWest]

So, to recap, last time I took a Daemons army to an organized game, the TO suggested to try pre-rolling the Rewards to speed up deployment. This is starting to look like more trouble than it's worth, especially if it's the store-brand TO running the show next time instead of the one who made the suggestion. Going to try color-coded dice and see how that works.

[chicop76]

This is a problem which is why I been favoring Tau over Daemons.

One solution is to have a laminated sheet with powers, and rewards for the different models you run. For example

FATEWEAVER Lord of Change
RIGHT HEAD DIVINATION
BIOMANCY. Etc
POWER 1. Tzeentch
POWER 2. Etc
ETC. Exhaulted
PYROMANCY. Etc
POWER 1. Greater
ETC
LEFT HEAD
DIVINATION
ETC
ETC
TELEPATHY
ETC
ETC

Initially it will take awhile to do. I would use page numbers and the die roll as well. Once completed you just mark off what you roll. What is a big help is to copy the psychic powers, rewards, and possible weapon options and have it laminated as well. That way it would cut down on time and it will help you keep track on who has what.

Also I would roll all the powers at once. For example your loc have 2 DIVINATION and your FATEWEAVER have 1. Just roll 3 dice with the Fateweaver as a different color. If you are rolling rewards roll all the exhausted at once, than greater, than lesser. Doing it that way woukd reduce time a lot. When you roll psychic however you may want to remember what you have. Due to time I would not think much into it.

Another way of doing it is to roll while your opponent is setting up. Sometimes it is allowed depending on yoir opponents.

[Nabterayl]

I actually think it's a good idea for a tournament. Bringing daemons down to the level of pre-game dice rolling that other armies have does not seem like a terrible thing to me.

For a friendly game I'd be perfectly happy to let you roll beforehand and just show up with a list showing what you had rolled. For a tournament, I think the fairest way is to roll in front of a judge for all the games that you might play, listed in order, and then have the judge keep track of those lists. That way other players can be sure that somebody was watching you when you rolled the dice. The problem with drawing lots that you've pre-rolled is that nobody has any assurance that the lots were generated fairly. Sure, you're picking one randomly in the presence of your opponent, but how do they know the deck wasn't stacked?

My preference would be to "pre-roll" in this manner only those things that are daemon-specific, like the various tiers of rewards. Yes, you're supposed to be able to see your opponent's army when you do that, but if you're willing to accept the slight handicap of not having that knowledge, I don't see how anybody could possibly object.

[chicop76]

I actually think it's a good idea for a tournament. Bringing daemons down to the level of pre-game dice rolling that other armies have does not seem like a terrible thing to me.

For a friendly game I'd be perfectly happy to let you roll beforehand and just show up with a list showing what you had rolled. For a tournament, I think the fairest way is to roll in front of a judge for all the games that you might play, listed in order, and then have the judge keep track of those lists. That way other players can be sure that somebody was watching you when you rolled the dice. The problem with drawing lots that you've pre-rolled is that nobody has any assurance that the lots were generated fairly. Sure, you're picking one randomly in the presence of your opponent, but how do they know the deck wasn't stacked?

My preference would be to "pre-roll" in this manner only those things that are daemon-specific, like the various tiers of rewards. Yes, you're supposed to be able to see your opponent's army when you do that, but if you're willing to accept the slight handicap of not having that knowledge, I don't see how anybody could possibly object.


The problem I have is that you cannot gear yourself in preparation for that list. For example getting a strength eight shooting attack mivht be helpful vs vehicle spam for example.

[Nabterayl]

The problem I have is that you cannot gear yourself in preparation for that list. For example getting a strength eight shooting attack mivht be helpful vs vehicle spam for example.
I'm not sure I follow. You mean you can't know whether you want to default to the "primaris" gift or take what you rolled, because you are making the decision before you can see the enemy's list like you're supposed to? If so, that's true, but it's strictly a nerf to the daemon player, so if the daemon player is willing to accept it, I can't see why an opponent would object.

[daboarder]

your making that descision before you even know what enemy your facing nabertayl, which you are allowed to know with primaris. thats one of the big problems. Dwest if your after votes, then I recommend a summary sheet of the rolls and a laminated card for each model making them, tick the box each game.

[Nabterayl]

your making that descision before you even know what enemy your facing nabertayl, which you are allowed to know with primaris. thats one of the big problems.
Certainly. Any sort of pre-rolling, whether for daemon-specific things or just psychic powers or warlord traits, runs that problem. I wouldn't ask an opponent to do that, for that reason - it puts them at a disadvantage. But if an opponent wanted to disadvantage themselves that way, to save time, I'd let them.* I thought that was what the OP was saying.

* Subject, in a competitive setting, to safeguards like I suggested to make sure that my oh-so-concerned-about-time-saving opponent was not in fact taking an advantage on the sly.

[daboarder]

I think DWest is more proposing rules for tournaments to apply to their daemon competitors, such that they all must disadvantage themselves that way if they want to compete.

[Power Klawz]

A pre-fabricated streamlined checklist seems like it would speed things up, as has been mentioned all ready. Just have little checkboxes for all the possible things you can roll and mark them off as you roll.

Anything more than a list which speeds things up seems like it would change the execution of the rules too much to be within the confines of the original design, not that this is necessarily a bad thing, just that I'm not sure how you'd counterbalances that in a tournament setting. One army gets special new homebrew rules, but the other's don't. Seems like it would impugn the fairness of the contest.

I think it'd be perfectly fine to remove all random tables and just pick the stuff you want though. Not sure why that's not the tournament standard anyways. I mean, its predicated on making the most unbeatable list anyways, why beat around the bush and allow chance to mess things up? Stack all the powers you want and go for ultimate cheese in my opinion, as long as everyone know what they're getting into of course.

[DWest]

I think DWest is more proposing rules for tournaments to apply to their daemon competitors, such that they all must disadvantage themselves that way if they want to compete.

Not exactly. The tourney in question was right after the new Daemons dex dropped, and I think the suggestion came from a "whoa, that's a lotta dice just to get to Turn 1!" sense of surprise, since he was watching my games close to see the new dex in action. If whatever is decided on ends up affecting all the Daemons players at this LGS, that's only because I am the only* Daemons player in the group. I just wanted to hash out this idea before actually inflicting it on other players at the next tourney.

*I don't count the guy who runs his favorite mono-Nurgle list when he shows up, and has a Daemons ally contingent just to keep his Plaguebearers in.