I love 8th Edition, me!

[Mr Mystery]

So time for a 'hit back' at 8th Edition's detractors.

As much as they are very much entitled to their opinion, and I'm not about to question or challenge them, I though I should post up what it is that makes 8th Edition, in my mind, the finest edition of Warhammer to date.

1. It's all about the infantry, baby!

Infantry are the powerhouse of Warhammer now. It's your bog standard Core choices which will ultimately carry the day, either by staving off the big single nasties, or grinding down the opposition in a war of attrition. More of them than ever get to have a swing, thanks to no more 'front rank wipe' and of course steadfast. Anyone attacking a block of infantry needs to have it's arse in gear, and hit them with multiple units. No longer will we see opportunistic cavalry charges unrealistically breaking a mass of infantry. They'll do damage, sure, quite possibly winning the combat, but then they're more likely than ever to be tarpitted, and attritioned into the dirty. Same goes with Monsters, and single chariots. You want to take out my infantry? It's finally time to sing for your supper.

And this has change the whole dynamic of the game. Min-max has thankfully had it's day, and core infantry is no longer something taken just to field a legal army.

2. It's much, much faster.

I know some aren't keen on the random charges, and I guess I understand why. But I don't agree. Random charges have added far more strategy to the movement phase. Before, I could comfortably hold my Chariots at 9" away from most Infantry. This means I have 5" of charge to spare, and the majority of footsloggers could do nothing about it. Sure, they could back off. At half speed. And no march. Leaving me a comfortable 3" of charge reach left. Only other option was to flee from a charge they should realistically be able to receive. Another issue raised the other day is that the 2D6+M makes infantry unrealistically fast compared to Cavalry. Well, yes and no on this one. Cavalry still have a far, far longer march move. But now rather than used simply for hurling them into the first combat you can, and hoping for a 'front rank wipe', that increased movement is better off actually manouevring into an advantageous position, to support a later combined charge. Again, even more strategic planning is now required. Cavalry still have their place, but again, they now have to sing for their supper!

3. Combats are more protracted.

This to my mind is a good thing, as once again, you've guessed it, more strategic consideration. I know my horde of infantry should be able to pin the big nasty stuff, allowing me to bring in more combat effective troops to deliver a coup de grace. But it's still a massive risk. It can fairly easily win the combat against me (thanks to thunderstomp), so I need to ensure when I attempt this, the BSB, General or ideally both are within their bonus range to make that holding action all the more likely. It also means I have to be mindful of what the other units in my opponents army are doing. It's all well and good bogging down the big nasty in it's own turn, but if you've failed to spot other enemy units that could jump your unit before you have a chance to reinforce your own unit, well it's likely to all go a bit wrong, as they can either provide ranks of their own to tip the balance, or hit you with enough stuff to whittle off you're own ranks.

4. Magic.

Yep. The spells got souped up, and how. Yep. You now can't necessarily magic your way to victory, due to random power dice, and also a typically greater preponderence of dispel dice. Good. This to me is how it should be. Before, people took Lvl 1 scroll caddies, just to shut down magic. This sucked horribly for the likes of Vampire and Tomb Kings, who utterly depended on their spells going off reliably. Now those armies have ways to generate additional dice, without giving out dispel dice to the opponent. Yet anyone, those armies included, who decide when writing their list they'll just win through overwhelming magical force, can no longer really depend on that. Only a good thing to my mind.

5. Artillery.

It's not what it used to be, and given this is the Age of Infantry, that's quite appropriate. It can still knock holes in approaching formations, but it really struggles to one hit kill now. Removing guess ranges? Again, I appreciate people's worries about that, but face it. Play with artillery for a while, and you soon get laser vision for it. And given GW's own Realm of Battle? I can see the middle of the board now, and know from edge to edge it's 24". I'll also know how far I've deployed the artillery on the board, and make pretty accurate guesses as to how far in the target is. So guessing wasn't the science it once was. Ergo, they did away with it all together. It still scatters. It can still overshoot or fail to bounce... It's still potent, but hey, you won't be winning the game with that alone anymore. Bad thing because? (seriously, anyone who has played against Stunties before will be familiar with the apparent tactical genius of just sitting up on a hill, and blasting everything in sight...) It's also effectively killed off stupid character sniping. You know the old wheeze. Wizard or other character legging it between units, and out in the open, but safely out of line of sight. Oh my. What a surprise. My opponent has 'accidentally' overguessed his cannon....splat. Yes. Well done. Aren't you a tactical genius and all round good sport, and certainly not bending the rules somewhat. Again, only a good thing.

6. It's a combined arms race.

The infantry are the powerhouse. But it's well supported infantry, and a carefully orchestrated combat plan that wins the game overall. Newer monsters have buff/debuff ranges (including the new fangled big kits, like the Luminark and that) to assist your other units, and no surprises, the more in the unit, the more that buff/debuff is felt! Infantry lead the charge, whilst chariots and cavalry hit the flanks to bring the big res.

7. The Army Books.

GOOD GOD JIM! It looks like we finally have balance! Even Orcs and Goblins are a nice little army, and they were the first out of the trap! It's still not completely perfect, but then, given the sheer number of variables, it never will be. But what we have now is a system and supporting books where the main factor of any win is sheer player competency. And with far fewer beardy combos out there, that competence is more about tactical and strategic nous than list spam!

So yeah. 8th Edition. I love it. I love it to bits. The games are closer. The tactics sneakier. And because of that, even when I get Purple Sunned off the table in turn two, I really, really don't mind, as it's far from a regular occurence!

[angrybear]

I fully agree with you. I started playing 7th with my friend and found it to fast (cavalry to OP) and magic was to insignificant. I love 8th edition and the infantry focus. Magic is maybe a bit to important but its also works wonders against death stars. Also cannons really need to be D3+1 instead of D6..This makes cannons not much worse (gameplay wise) but more fun to play against.

[eldargal]

I agree, 8th is the edition I've enjoyed most since I started playing at the end of 4th edition (I think, it was ages ago). I actually quit during 7th edition because I just didn't enjoy the game anymore, 8th got me back into it.

[Kirsten]

yup, 8th is the best edition by a country mile. or any other sort of mile. I disagree mostly with the complaints people make about magic too. In theory a spell can devastate a whole unit, but it is unbelievably rare in my experience. Plus even if you have no magic users at all, you can still defend against spells with a decent chance, you will rarely have a big difference between power dice and dispel dice. contrast that with 40k where psychic powers are far far more reliable, and you can do very little to stop them, even with psykers of your own. 40k powers are ten times more effective than magic could ever be.

[Mr Mystery]

Also, other things I like (posted on lunch, now knocked off!).

Skirmishers.

HA! FINALLY! No more of your silly 'lets just run around and around his infantry blocks, march blocking, which means only a complete doofus will ever see their Skirmishers in a fight they don't want' TACTICALGENIUSLOL! Very, very glad to see the end of those days. Yes all Skink armies, I'm glaring at you! And let's not forget...all Skirmishers are steadfast in woods, and ranked infantry loses it's ranks in woods. Used right, skirmishers are absolutely rock hard. But like the rest of the game now, takes a bit of know how to get the best out of them.

Victory Points.

It's all or nothing. And I for one welcome that. If I want to beat you, I need to drive you from the field, and not just lightly tickle the right units down to half wounds and then leg it. No longer will my Dragon give up half it's points just for taking 3 wounds... Upside for non-monster fielders (the big weirdos), I have to be really, really picky about where he gets chucked into the mix. Can't risk losing him due to rubber lance syndrome!

Army selection.

It's a lot looser, but with the compulsory '25% of your points in core', we're seeing less and less beardy armies that are just frustrating to play against. But with the additional availability of special and rare, combined arms approaches are easier to do justice to!

[eldargal]

I'd quite happily see the minimum core thing raised myself, though I think core units are usually more useful than people give them credit for. The amount of times i've been told I have too much Core in my VC army only to have my fearbomb vampiress and giant block of skellingtons bog down a massive deathstar unit...

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

In fact, thinking about my points so far.....

Think back to 6th and 7th Edition, and every single bent army you ever played. You know the ones. Point-and-click Cavalry. Ring-around-the-roses Skirmishers. Flying Circuses. Gunline boredom. The armies that were undoubtedly powerful, but utterly, utterly boring, banal and lame to play against?

Where are they now? I'm not seeing them anymore....

[Insert_nickname_here]

Right. That's it. I'm going to finally get my finger out and get that Savage Orc and Forest goblin army started. I've been meaning to do it since the book was released, and every release just makes the Warhammer World more and more interesting. Thank you, Mr Mystery (and others), your enthusiasm has really helped push me back to the game I love.

[Aegwymourn]

With all that I'm reading in this thread I might have to revive one of my old armies. I quit playing shortly after Ravening Hordes was released. I hated how the magic system changed from the cards to "look I can do basic math to determine how many spells I want to cast each turn". I don't know how many times I played against a "dodge the comet of cassandora" army.

[Mr.Pickelz]

8th may be a better edition, but Dwarves still suffer. :(
I still see dwarfs relying on Artillery, you just can't do a Melee based Dwarf list and expect to win, they're the Tau of Fantasy.

[Kirsten]

8th may be a better edition, but Dwarves still suffer. :(
I still see dwarfs relying on Artillery, you just can't do a Melee based Dwarf list and expect to win, they're the Tau of Fantasy.

I couldn't disagree with you more. an army composed of big blocks of warriors, long beards, and iron breakers, 30 dwarfs per unit, is an absolute nightmare. they are a superb army at the moment, just ignore the 'internet wisdom' for dwarf lists because they are totally wrong.

[silashand]

About the only thing I agree on is your #7, the army book balance thing (barring TK who I think got shafted all to hell for no apparent reason). I may not like some of them, but they are generally more balanced now :).

Otherwise I will just bow out of this discussion so as to not detract from the positivity you are obviously trying to stir up.

Cheers, Gary

[Mr Mystery]

With all that I'm reading in this thread I might have to revive one of my old armies. I quit playing shortly after Ravening Hordes was released. I hated how the magic system changed from the cards to "look I can do basic math to determine how many spells I want to cast each turn". I don't know how many times I played against a "dodge the comet of cassandora" army.

Magic has certainly changed. I'd say it has the best bits from the previous systems.

Barring signature spells, you can only have one of any given spell, as ever, one rolled up per Wizard Level. Except Loremasters, who know all the spells of the specified lore, and don't ' lock out' those spells.

Wizard Level is added to casting and dispel rolls.

Must importantly, if you fail to meet the casting level, that Wizard can't cast again that turn, which helps prevent low dice spam.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'm going to get into some GOD DAMN WAR HAMMER FANTASY BATTLES EIGHTH EDITION.

Who's with me? RAAAR!

We should have a thread. Make it an event. Post pictures. Swap war stories. Set challenges. Generate buzz.

[Chronowraith]

Agreed on all points. I've been playing since 3rd edition and 8th has so far been my favorite. Is it perfect? Nope. But the flaws it has are small by comparison to earlier editions.

The biggest single change that I love is no more remove models from the front rank (thus reducing the number of attacks back). That made playing against elite armies rather dull as I was lucky if I rolled any dice in the close-combat phase due to that rule.

[YourSwordisMine]

Agreed on all points. I've been playing since 3rd edition and 8th has so far been my favorite. Is it perfect? Nope. But the flaws it has are small by comparison to earlier editions.

The biggest single change that I love is no more remove models from the front rank (thus reducing the number of attacks back). That made playing against elite armies rather dull as I was lucky if I rolled any dice in the close-combat phase due to that rule.

Or against cavalry... I hated 7e and the prevalence of MSU cav units...

[pgarfunkle]

I'm definitely more into fantasy than 40k at the moment. In fact I've probably only played a couple of games in 6th ed 40k whereas I've been trying to get a fantasy game in every other week with my Lizards

[ACE01]

Well, I very recently thought I'd get back into the gaming side of our fabulous hobby (rather than the collecting side, as I've done for many years) and started with some tomb kings.

If there's an appetite, I'd be happy to do/contribute to a thread covering the collecting, modelling and gaming sides as a player returning after not playing since the 90s. What do people think, could we so this collectively to keep each other on track?

Briefly, I've decided to build a Rasettra themed army, as I'm also concurrently building a Lizardmen force, and have built my core units, constructs and some cold one chariot conversions. I've played a couple of intro games at my local GW, and am feeling my way slowly into this edotion.

Next up I'm doing terradons/carrion, and snakes based on necro knights :)

[pgarfunkle]

Yeah definitely up for more fantasy content. I'm trying to get my Lizards painted for a tournament at the beginning of November but have got into a bit of a painting lull recently. Once back on track I've got to start up a painting thread

[Mr Mystery]

It's up to us, we are the community after all!

I'm half way tempted to do 'beginners guides' to the Army Books, based on a fixed template of common Fantasy Strategies. Won't be intended to be a comprehensive guide on how to win, but to give a broad idea as to what you can and can't do with each army.

[ACE01]

It's up to us, we are the community after all!

I'm half way tempted to do 'beginners guides' to the Army Books, based on a fixed template of common Fantasy Strategies. Won't be intended to be a comprehensive guide on how to win, but to give a broad idea as to what you can and can't do with each army.

I'd read that, would be great to bring new people in too, since new players = new readers/posters.

I'll go ahead and do something with my tk/lizards, and see if it's worth continuing!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

If there's an appetite, I'd be happy to do/contribute to a thread covering the collecting, modelling and gaming sides as a player returning after not playing since the 90s. What do people think, could we so this collectively to keep each other on track?

I would be completely into this and would do it. One of the things I always love in White Dwarf is when they do the Tale of Four Gamers. It's a decent model for getting armies done and generating enthusiasm.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Think I'll attempt to build the beginning articles around the contents of the Battalion boxed sets and that.

[ACE01]

I would be completely into this and would do it. One of the things I always love in White Dwarf is when they do the Tale of Four Gamers. It's a decent model for getting armies done and generating enthusiasm.

Right! I'll try to get something together in the next day or so tracking my progress so far.

I'd be up for doing a tale of x gamers though, love those articles!

[lupo1982]

I hate this edition, really explain me that,
Me Empire(old 1 bnot new dex) vs Lizards

1st Turn for Lizzy Slan launch the Purple Sun of sometingh however is a full power so un-bloccable don't know the english name couse i'm italian
anyway it kill half of my list including general rest of the list test and fail on leadership running away

1st turn for me i got 10 Gunners on the table.....i force myself to not scream and launch it all away
than put all the stuff back in the bag

What is my mistake? what? i've never have a change of play!i lost on enemy first turn!! simply for an unstoppable force power , **** it 8th edition is all laucnh 2 die if u luck win if no lose NO TACTIC no LIST CHOOSING nothing only luck, tanke you army go straingh forward pray for high charge roll pray for high die on combat.

I play fantsy game i play Mordheim that its very well done and despite rats and beastman is BALANCED!

[Mr Mystery]

I've had the really naughty spells do horrendous damage only a handful of times. And yes, they messed me up on occasion (except my Ogres, who frankly defy probability on I tests!).

And this threat discourages 'death star' units, encouraging a more thoughtful and considered deployment.

Now in keeping with the first post, I'm not trying to say anyone's opinion is wrong. Just countering.

[Kirsten]

yup, it is exceedingly rare for magic to have a big effect like that. not only are the average magical effects pretty low, but you have a good chance of stopping some spells even if you don't take much, or any, magical defence. sure it is unfortunate to lose on the first turn due to one irresistible force spell. but I would bet that never happens to you again.

[Chronowraith]

I hate this edition, really explain me that,
Me Empire(old 1 bnot new dex) vs Lizards

1st Turn for Lizzy Slan launch the Purple Sun of sometingh however is a full power so un-bloccable don't know the english name couse i'm italian
anyway it kill half of my list including general rest of the list test and fail on leadership running away

1st turn for me i got 10 Gunners on the table.....i force myself to not scream and launch it all away
than put all the stuff back in the bag

What is my mistake? what? i've never have a change of play!i lost on enemy first turn!! simply for an unstoppable force power , **** it 8th edition is all laucnh 2 die if u luck win if no lose NO TACTIC no LIST CHOOSING nothing only luck, tanke you army go straingh forward pray for high charge roll pray for high die on combat.

I play fantsy game i play Mordheim that its very well done and despite rats and beastman is BALANCED!

While I only know the information that you've presented in your post... what you've stated is fairly unlikely given the variables stated (although instances of this have happened in every edition of Fantasy). At most the the Purple Sun is a large blast that moves a maximum of 36" in a straight line. Given that the caster is a Slann it's unlikely that in the first turn he's in the flank of your army to "kill half your list". Moreover, if the Slann was in Temple Guard and not in the front rank, he'd be doing at least a few wounds to his own unit. At most he probably wiped out whatever your most powerful unit of ranked infantry was (that likely had several characters in it) and they broke and ran which caused other nearby units to panic and run as well. This happens. It has always happened in Fantasy. Every edition has stories like this and yes, it sucks. However, this isn't due to some intrinsic flaw found only in 8th edition. Even in 7th edition I saw whole armies panic and run off the table due to particularly bad die rolling. At the end of the day it's a game of chance because it relies on dice to accomplish fundamental actions like attacking, casting, etc. The new edition didn't change that except to add random charges and make magic a little less reliable. Chance has been a factor of every single edition of 40k and Fantasy.

[Aenir]

As a Bretonnian Player, I don't like 8th ed, but not just because Brets suck now :P (I also used to play empire)

Charge distances. I don't like additional random rolling for more steps, I would have liked it to be a choice, 2x Movement flat, or you can try for movement + 2d6, the choice would be fine with me, it lets you pull off those cinematic super long charges, but if you don't want to put your faith in the hands of nuffle (BB, Woo!) you have a standard you can fall back onto.

Magic I think that some spells are wayyy too powerful, especially if you IF it. You always see people hoping for Dwellers or Purple sun, namely because of the potential damage it can give out. Magic Resistance is nearly useless now, as all the spells you would want it for don't allow the saves, and the smaller spells your Armor / Ward is usually sufficient.

Large Blocks of infantry, sure its a nice change from MSU all over the place, but they went a bit too far, If a unit of ANY book's heavy horse hits say, Skaven slaves, that unit of slaves should be decimated, as it is, you kill maybe 10, they stay there and then weight of numbers ties you in and its over. I wish if they got charged, there would be some sort of upgraded reaction which leads into the next part

Psychology... I don't know where to go with this, It just seems a complete non-factor anymore, WS 1 is a pain, but given that most armies have large blocks of infantry, even if you only hit/wound on 6s, you still throw enough out that it doesn't really matter, worse with spears :)

Im not sure what else could be changed atm, this IS as of about a year ago (when I last played due to local store closing) But even then, WHFB was even going down at that point, a campaign in 7th or 'Ard Boyz filled up the tables with extras (~20 people total) last 'ard boyz had 4 people, and I was doing it because I worked there to help fill out the bracket. All anecdotal sure, but it just points out that 8th doesn't really seem to work too well here at least :)

[Mr Mystery]

There's also dirty items you can use to.....discourage high dice casting.

My favourite is the feedback scroll. For every die rolled to cast, roll another. On a 5+ the caster suffers a wound. With a bit of luck, you can take the casters head clean off. Doesn't really help with IF, but the miscast usually does that job anyway.

Whip that out, and in future your opponents will be a lot more conservative when rolling to cast!

On the subject of Slavepits (not as kinky as it sounds, not even remotely), that's what they're there to do. And at the risk of sounding a right harsh git, don't charge it. Skaven are rubbish without their general. Without his Ld, Slaves top out at a lack lustre ld5. So look for ways to bump off his general.

Psychology....I think the change was needed. Auto-break due to Fear is a harsh loss for Undead, but would have made them horribly bent against Hordes. Ws1 is a lot harsher than it first seems. WS2 stuff swaps to-hit rolls. And against Heavy and Elite infantry, that's an unpleasant shift, especially as they're quite squishy if you actually get to slap them around for a change. And there's the chance it will go off in every round of combat.

It's not everyone's cup of tea of course. No system can be. But I heartily recommend dusting off your models and giving it another bash!

[ACE01]

Got to agree with the comments on spellcasting so far. Whilst I admit I'm only just learning my way through this edition after deciding to actually play some games with my minis, I've yet to have a total army wipe through spells like purple sun. My own worst experience was strangely when my tomb kings list faced off against a tk opponent. He got his casket off turn 1 and due to terrible rolling on my part and him passing every 3+ roll required, I lost chariots, monsters and warmachines either completely or down to a wound. Strangely this actually made me think more about my positioning and I only ended up with a VP loss.

I'm much enjoying getting some weekly games in. Warhammer rocks!

[Mr Mystery]

Clean forgot one of my favourite tweaks to magic. You now choose your lore at the same time as you write your list.

Tiny tweak, massive impact. No more 'wait, see, pick besterest lore against that opponent'.

If your opponent isn't doing this, then they're cheating, and horribly so.

[Chronowraith]

There's also dirty items you can use to.....discourage high dice casting.
On the subject of Slavepits (not as kinky as it sounds, not even remotely), that's what they're there to do. And at the risk of sounding a right harsh git, don't charge it. Skaven are rubbish without their general. Without his Ld, Slaves top out at a lack lustre ld5. So look for ways to bump off his general.


I can't stress this point enough. Most people see the giant unit of slaves and think it is ranked infantry like empire spearmen, Orc Boys, etc. They aren't. They are a chaff unit intended to tarpit units and redirect the flow of battle. If you are charging them then you are doing something wrong as you are playing right into the Skaven players hands. Fighting slaves, no matter how many you kill, always benefits the Skaven as the ranged units will simply fire into the combat and by the time you are done with the slaves... your unit is diminished and all it cost the skaven player was 50-100 points of slaves to tie you up for 3-4 turns. As far as slaves go... they are crap in combat. Other than some weird lucky dice... they almost never win combat except against skirmishers and other chaff (and neither of those are a given).

As for the complaints about 8th edition... it IS my favorite edition but it IS NOT perfect. It's true that psychology has little to no impact on the game and needs some rethinking. Magic needs some work (like usual) but it's far from broken. Laser precision cannons also need some alterations. Th eone thing I love about 8th edition is that most army types can perform fine even though they have list types that are hard counters.

On the topic of random charges... I've never understood the complaints about this. People don't complain about rolling dice for hitting, wounding, or armor saves... but for some reason random charges are the big evil villain. I'd much rather fail a charge based on dice than fail a charge by .1" because my eyeballs aren't as precise as someone else.

@ Mr Mystery... I love the Feedback Scroll... although it's a bit lackluster against Life Wizards unless you actually manage to kill them (I haven't so far).

[Mr Mystery]

I used it to detonate a Vampire Lord in the first magic phase of the game.

Yeah. It didn't go terribly well after that for my opponent!

And a bit more on charges.... Lots of the irritating bits of completing the charge has been removed entirely. If you roll at least the minimum distance, then you're in. No mindless little disputes over whether or not you need to wheel 1/4" or 1/2", and failing your charge because of it. This is not 'dumbing down' of a game. This is streamlining, removing the fiddly bits to make the game flow smoother. Dumbing down removes dice rolls. 8th Edition has added them. And it's opened up further risk to charges. As already well covered, previously a Cold One Chariot (to use an example where I'm not only familiar, but also one where getting the charge is critical, as with all Chariots) could charge 14". Most infantry moves 4". Believe me, you quickly grow familiar with the difference between 9" and 8" (hurr!). Now though....I could potentially charge up to 19", but could just as easily roll up an embarassing, arthritic trundle of 9" (HURR!)... The infantry however, can potentially counter charge me by up to 16" of movement. On that count alone, I can't simply 'goal hang' in the sweet zone, knowing I'm completely safe from my intended target. This is added risk. Added risk requires thought. Thought becomes strategy and tactics.....

But as Chronowraith said, the game isn't perfect, and probably never will be given how many people play it, and each of them likely having a different view point. But it is damned good fun, and more challenging than ever.

[Kirsten]

yeah I agree with the charges, a lot of games used to be each player manoeuvring to be just outside each other's charge range and playing chicken, whereas now the uncertainty makes it far more interesting and mobile.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeedy.

It's also shifted my approach entirely, and made me far, far more cautious than before. I find the actual manouevring to cover myself in case it all goes a bit Pete Tong a good deal trickier, and thus satisfying (to my mind, YMMV) than simply memorising what 9" looks like on the board (strong hint to get good at that is to know off by heart the dimensions of your movement tray...).

[Chronowraith]

yeah I agree with the charges, a lot of games used to be each player manoeuvring to be just outside each other's charge range and playing chicken, whereas now the uncertainty makes it far more interesting and mobile.

Agreed. Previous editions drove me crazy as the first 2-3 turns were nothing but eyeing up the opponent before someone got the balls to declare a charge. It wasn't even maneuvering... we'd march out to nearly within charge distance and just sit there making minute adjustments to throw the opponent off. I'd get images in my head of medieval unit formations moving forward only to stop and shuffle forward a step at a time before hearing the horns blast for an all out charge. All that simply to fail the charge because of .1" or a forgotten wheel.

[ornamentalist]

Any game of Warhammer is a good game and you get more laughs playing playing 8th than previous editions. From a tactical point of view though the horde rule is a real clunker. It encourages the use of Deathstar units and pumping up the magic is a pretty crude way of providing the means to counter them. With smaller units the game is more challenging and tactical. I have read it cynically suggested that the horde rule is a ploy to make us buy more figures. If so, it certainly worked on me!

[Mr Mystery]

Any game of Warhammer is a good game and you get more laughs playing playing 8th than previous editions. From a tactical point of view though the horde rule is a real clunker. It encourages the use of Deathstar units and pumping up the magic is a pretty crude way of providing the means to counter them. With smaller units the game is more challenging and tactical. I have read it cynically suggested that the horde rule is a ploy to make us buy more figures. If so, it certainly worked on me!

It's also a counter to one of the criticisms of previous versions, in that I'd buy a unit of say, 30 infantry. Of my cash investment, only about 6 or 7 would ever actually do anything! Now of course, more ranks can fight, which is pretty cool!

[ACE01]

Although messy, the lap around rule used to give you that too. Made sense realistically, but wasn't quick/easy to play! Still not sure I see the benefits of a horde however, since unless you are fighting horde vs horde the number of attacks gained from +1rank vs the lack of maneuverability and cost of the additional troops doesn't add up.

Then again, I'm a newcomer to this, so maybe I'm missing something?

[Mr Mystery]

I've been playing since...erm...4th Edition I think (High Elves and the lethalGoblinspears...)

I don't think I ever really figured out lapping round, most on account after the first round of combat, you simply reduced your own ranks (and thus static res), without actually negating your opponent's rank bonus...which in the times I'd seen it used, simply result in the lapping unit getting it's head kicked in in the next round!

And Horde....it was made for Monstrous Infantry! They're an expensive option to be sure, but..well, my Ogres get 6 S6 impact hits at a minimum, followed by 61 hth attacks (allowing for champion, and two hand weapons, which I prefer), and then 6 S4 stomp attacks. Very little survives that little lot!

[ACE01]

Same era as me then!

Whilst that unit certainly seems deadly, assuming a 40mm base, does my deep but narrow 5x20mm frontage unit only take 31=13+9+9 (3 + 3 supporting + 3 horde) attacks? Still formidable, but are the extra 12 models worth buying to give 9 attacks? At more than double the cost, I have a hard time figuring it out...

[Mr Mystery]

Same era as me then!

Whilst that unit certainly seems deadly, assuming a 40mm base, does my deep but narrow 5x20mm frontage unit only take 31=13+9+9 (3 + 3 supporting + 3 horde) attacks? Still formidable, but are the extra 12 models worth buying to give 9 attacks? At more than double the cost, I have a hard time figuring it out...

I'd have to work it out using actual models, as I can't remember how many I'd actually get into base contact!

Of course, the other upside to a Horde is that my ranks last a lot longer, and again this is particularly pronounced with Monstrous Infantry, as you need to deal (on average) 12 unsaved wounds to knock the first one off.

Overall, I favour the horde, despite it's necessary drawbacks. On average I'll get more attack at the enemy than they'll get on me, regardless of whether I have a few dozen infantry kicking their heels and only getting to yell encouragement from the sidelines!

And in closing....to horde, or not to horde....regardless, choice is a good thing! Defensive players might go for steadfast. Offensive players (like myself) might prefer Horde. That there is not definitive answer speaks volumes about the overall quality of this edition in my eyes.

[ACE01]

Actually, now I think about it, you'd be able to get 4 in base contact, so 17 front rank attacks, plus 24 from both supporting ranks = 41. That's a lot more useful than I'd envisioned, I'd not considered it with Monstrous infantry to be honest.

Interesting. I wonder if that would work with my Ushabti...

[Mr Mystery]

Actually, now I think about it, you'd be able to get 4 in base contact, so 17 front rank attacks, plus 24 from both supporting ranks = 41. That's a lot more useful than I'd envisioned, I'd not considered it with Monstrous infantry to be honest.

Interesting. I wonder if that would work with my Ushabti...

More than likely! Stompy Stompy Hitty Slashy!

[ElectricPaladin]

I only joined the Fantasy show in 8th Edition, but so far I have no complaints. It seems like a fun game. I like how powerful magic is - it creates the feeling of two wizards duking it out psychically while their armies struggle in the real world.

Of course, my wizard is a lizard, so I'm probably biased towards magic :D.

[ACE01]

I only joined the Fantasy show in 8th Edition, but so far I have no complaints. It seems like a fun game. I like how powerful magic is - it creates the feeling of two wizards duking it out psychically while their armies struggle in the real world.

Of course, my wizard is a lizard, so I'm probably biased towards magic :D.

Mine are Lizards, or Liches, I hear you!

@Mr Mystery - Will have to try a bigger unit of ushabti, ws4 s6 x 3 would be quite nice in 2 or 3 (horde) ranks. Are large ogre units point effective? At 50+ points each (from memory) an ushabti horde might be pushing it!

[Mr Mystery]

You have to watch your flanks! But yeah, I'd say it's worth giving it a bash.

Now, it might look a bit cack, but have a word with a regular opponent. and see if they'll let you 'rear rank substitute' the unit, essentially just fielding a suitably sized movement tray with as much of the front rank represented by models as possible.

[ACE01]

You have to watch your flanks! But yeah, I'd say it's worth giving it a bash.

Now, it might look a bit cack, but have a word with a regular opponent. and see if they'll let you 'rear rank substitute' the unit, essentially just fielding a suitably sized movement tray with as much of the front rank represented by models as possible.

I typically play against my brother, so should be easy enough. Thinking about it though, despite how much I adore the models, a 900 point unit of T4 W3 5+ dudes probably won't work...

[Mr Mystery]

It's certainly a calculated risk, but one worth experimenting with.

I'd be tempted to give them Great snows though. 15 S6 shots, or more if you Righteous Smiting them up a bit... The volume of S4 should be ok on it's own.

[ACE01]

I've always discounted the bows if I'm honest. Unit of three for 150points at bs2. 1 hit at S6 on average doing 1 wound for your 150 is pretty rough. 15 of them though would give 4 wounds per turn on anything other than the heaviest knights though...

[Mr Mystery]

I've always discounted the bows if I'm honest. Unit of three for 150points at bs2. 1 hit at S6 on average doing 1 wound for your 150 is pretty rough. 15 of them though would give 4 wounds per turn on anything other than the heaviest knights though...

It does change their role up. In combat, they're probably the hardest archers in the game. And with 15 out 18 shooting (not firing. You can't fire a bow!), a decent threat to even the biggest monster.

I'd also recommend at least giving it a bash!

[Kirsten]

I field my ogres in 3x3 squares, though I might try a horde at some point. I'd like to see a plastic ushabti box, I want an all shooting tomb kings army with loads of bow armed ushabti.

[ElectricPaladin]

I have heard similar things about Lizardmen kroxigors. I kind of want to buy a trio of those and experiment with fielding them as an independent hammer unit or hidden in a block of skinks.

[ACE01]

I have heard similar things about Lizardmen kroxigors. I kind of want to buy a trio of those and experiment with fielding them as an independent hammer unit or hidden in a block of skinks.

As my army is Rasetra themed, I've got my ushabti in the middle of a skink block, only had one game with them but they did ok :)

[Mr Mystery]

I say give them a bash too.

For a long time Monstrous Infantry kind of struggled. Static res pretty much humped them, as they were just too expensive to field with ranks, especially when you consider how many models would just be left standing around doing nowt for the entire game.

Between 3 wide ranks, the horde option and of course stomp, they've really come into their own!

Right, I'm off to finish watching Saw 3, and then having a damned good read of me Tomb Kings book, ready for the second 'Getting to Grips' guide. Altogether, sing it with me now! Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones!

[ACE01]

Since this hit the frontpage, there seems to be much variance in opinion, particularly based on player location. Hopefully the exposure will rejuvenate the boards!

[Mr Mystery]

All exposure is good exposure!

[Metacarpi]

That's not what the judge at my recent court case reckons. :(

[Mr Mystery]

I'm pretty sure that more about the squirrel than the exposure, to be fair.