Knights of Blood (BA Codex) Cities of Death List (1.5k)

[ElectricPaladin]

Before the list, two important pieces of information:

1) This will be a team tournament, with Order and Disorder earning points towards victory by beating on each other. So far, it looks like the Order team will be composed of one or two Eldar players, one generic Space Marines player, and myself. The Disorder side is mostly all the Eldar that don't end up supporting Order (sneaky *******s) and Dark Eldar, but I can also expect to run into Daemons, Necrons, Tyranids, and probably at least one Orc army. Nobody is talking about Tau or Chaos Marines... yet. There was at least one other Tau player in the previous campaign, and it's entirely reasonable t I want to pick the list that will contribute the most in this environment.

2) We are being fun and fluffy about this. I like to win, but I want a list that will fit the expectations. I don't want to bulldoze or be bulldozed (well, except in that this list does have a couple of giant dozer blades :D).

HQ
• Librarian (Jump Pack)

Elites
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists (Heavy Flamer and Meltagun)
• Sanguinary Priest (Jump Pack) w/Chainsword & Bolt Pistol

Troops
• 10 Tactical Marines (Flamer & Heavy Bolter), Sergeant w/Power Fist
° Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon
• 10 Assault Marines (2 Flamers), Sergeant w/Power Sword
• 10 Scouts w/Camo Cloaks, Shotgun & Sniper Rifle

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Dozer Blade, Flamestorm Cannon

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons & Multi-Meltas
• Vindicator w/Siege Shield

Stratagems: Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Master Snipers

The idea is to go balls-out, Blood Angels style. It's all about getting up in my opponent's face, early and often. I've got a drop pod hitting the center, with scouts right behind it providing covering fire. I've got a Baal predator outflanking or screaming up to support them, thanks to its speed, Scout redeploy, and nigh-invulnerability to terrain.

And then I've got a second wave: 100% accurate Deep Striking assault marines, vindicator pie plates, and the stormraven, with its extra special cargo to smash whatever hard center my opponent's line might have.

Finally, I've tried to pack the list with lots of things that ignore cover - because there will be a lot of it. I've got template weapon on the dreadnought, template weapon on the tactical squad, template weapons on the assault squad, a flamestorm Baal, and the Master Sniper stratagem, which ensures that my opponent won't have cover saves against the scouts, either.

What do you think?

[ElectricPaladin]

I got in a practice game with my good friend - and fellow Oakland teacher - Jacob. I think he's on this forum as jberry or something. Perhaps he'll chime in.

Anyway, I got pretty pasted. Many Eldar and Dark Eldar lost their lives in the ruined streets, but so did many of the Emperor's finest (excommunicated psychotic maniacs). In the end, my opponent was able to secure the building I needed to defend while destroying my ability to hold objectives... and that's all she wrote.

I learned a painful lesson about the Eldar codex... it's the bomb! So much psychic boosting! So many boots on the table! I was outnumbered four to three, and anyone who needed it had twin-linked weapons, or psychic invisibility. It was harsh. Additionally, Eldar skimmer tanks and jetbikes were able to ignore much of the urban fighting terrain, which made them very hard to pin down. And the warp spiders. Warp spiders! SO DAMN FAST!

I seriously need to get back to my own Eldar one of these days...

Anyway, on to the things I could have done something about:
• I need to play more aggressively. Deploying my tactical squad in the building I was set to defend just made them sitting ducks. I should have played more like a Blood Angel: screw the defense, attack attack attack! If I'd deployed my tactical squad in my stormraven, I could have used that to put more pressure on my opponent's objective and forced him to wheel back and attack me there. Given how durable Blood Angels can be, they might have survived long enough to give me the win... or at least let me destroy his ability to hold objectives.
• Similarly, I should have put my scouts in a more offensive position. Deploying them centrally, a little away from my own lines, was a mistake. They just got taken apart by warp spiders and didn't put pressure on my opponent. If I'd deployed them in the corner opposite the objective, they could have sniped at jetbikes and gradually moved in on the building I had to claim.
• I need more boots. Three scoring units is great, but I had too many tanks. They're just too fragile. I think I'm going to drop the vindicator. In this game, it died to a lucky dark lance shot, but that's not the point. The point is that I need more boots, and with the fireBaal outflanking (so it can get into position faster) and ignoring cover, the vindicator is the weakest link.
• Librarians. Not so great. Maybe I'll try a jump reclusiarch next time...

[jberrysf]

Another thing that I was thinking about in the last 10 hours since we played is that I don't really think either of our sniper squads--your scouts, and my rangers--did a whole lot of anything for the entire game. They drew attention, which is nice, and they made more cover saves than I care to discuss, but neither made back their points at all from a killing perspective. I guess drawing attention and fire makes space for other units to not have as much fire on them, but I'm hesitant to really say that they were worth the points. Infiltrating a scoring unit with Stealth was tactically cool, though, so I guess you take the good with the bad.

In some ways I feel like deep striking the command squad was also a bit of a poor decision. You rob yourself of 2 psychic phases right off the bat and you lose any chance of a 2nd turn assault, which would have put even more pressure on me to have to really move less linearly towards your objective. If they had been between me and that building, the game would have looked very different, I think.

[ElectricPaladin]

Another thing that I was thinking about in the last 10 hours since we played is that I don't really think either of our sniper squads--your scouts, and my rangers--did a whole lot of anything for the entire game. They drew attention, which is nice, and they made more cover saves than I care to discuss, but neither made back their points at all from a killing perspective. I guess drawing attention and fire makes space for other units to not have as much fire on them, but I'm hesitant to really say that they were worth the points. Infiltrating a scoring unit with Stealth was tactically cool, though, so I guess you take the good with the bad.

In some ways I feel like deep striking the command squad was also a bit of a poor decision. You rob yourself of 2 psychic phases right off the bat and you lose any chance of a 2nd turn assault, which would have put even more pressure on me to have to really move less linearly towards your objective. If they had been between me and that building, the game would have looked very different, I think.

Yeah... I'm considering dropping the Deep Strike stratagem altogether and having my assault marines fly across the table. They are fast enough. It didn't hurt you at all that your skimmers had to zoom across the table, after all!

[ElectricPaladin]

I am considering this as my next list (maybe even next week):

HQ
• Reclusiarch w/Jump Pack
• Captain w/Lightning Claw & Power Fist

Elites
• Furioso Dreadnought (Blood Fists) w/Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Magna-Grapple
• 2 Sanguinary Priests w/Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, 1 w/Jump Pack

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines (Foot), Sergeant w/Power Sword, 2 Flamers
• 10 Assault Marines (Jump), Sergeant w/Power Lance & Meltabombs, 2 Flamers
• 10 Scouts w/Camo Cloaks, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles

Fast Attack
•*Baal Predator w/Dozer Blade & Flamestorm Cannon

Heavy Support
• Stormraven Gunship w/Lascannons & Multi-Meltas

Stratagems
• Infiltrate, Master Snipers, Rappelling Lines

The goal is to take better advantage of the tools I've got. The captain, the foot priest, and his assault marine entourage go in the stormraven along with the dreadnought. With the "Rappelling Lines" stratagem, they can deploy onto the top of a building and fight their way down, something the captain would very adept at doing. I can do this to clear objectives. The jump assault squad doesn't deep strike, but with their speed and ability to ignore terrain, they should be able to make their way quickly into position to engage enemy units. With the chaplain leading them, they are ready to take on even serious threats.

The Baal probably outflanks. The sniper scouts infiltrate and, well, snipe.

What do you think? Better? Worse?

[jberrysf]

My only concern with this list, not that it really is a big one, is that you haven't made much gains in the way of boots on the ground. You basically traded a libby and the Vindicator for a Reclusiarch and a Captain. That paired with putting the jump unit on the table turn one will let you apply stronger "full court press" if you will. As far as board control, that kind of fast, hard hitting squad will do wonders to assert dominance on the middle of the table, but I'm still worried that you have pretty few things on the table, making the choices for your opponent pretty much a no brainer. I'd say you should keep the deep-striking dropdread. I like that tactic a lot and it will do a ton in the way of dividing your opponents' forces right at the get go.

[ElectricPaladin]

Well, the other thing I could do with those points... is this:

[Rest of the list the same, except no magna-grapple on the dreadnought and no foot priest]

5 Death Company w/Jump Packs, 1 Power Fist

Still no drop pod on the dreadnought (I'll have to see if I can scare up the points), but those five death company led by the chaplain will be killer...

[jberrysf]

Death Company Don't score though, right? They're automatically fearless, furious charge and feel no pain? What kind of weapons would you give them?

[ElectricPaladin]

Death Company Don't score though, right? They're automatically fearless, furious charge and feel no pain? What kind of weapons would you give them?

Yeah, they don't score. However, I think that a powerful threatening unit could serve the same effect. Imagine if my HQ had done that drop in the company of a nasty unit you couldn't ignore for fear of being killed while a scoring unit closed in on your objective at the same time.

They're naturally Fearless, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, and Relentless. They have Rage (two attacks on the charge rather than one) and can never score. Additionally, a chaplain's fiery rhetoric lets them reroll misses and failed wounds in the first round of combat.

I'd equip them as assault marines: chainsword and bolt pistol. One of them would get a power fist. They can also get thunder hammers (probably not worth the expense), power weapons (ok).

The squad described above would get a total of 29 attacks. 25 of them at Initiative 4, 4 of them at Initiative 1. Of the attacks at Initiative 4, 20 of them are Strength 5 AP - and five of them are Strength 6 AP 4 Concussive. If I can get in in range of a sanguinary priest, those last are Strength 7 (the Reclusiarch doesn't have Furious Charge without a priest's boost bubble). The four at Initiative 1 are Strength 9 AP 1.

And, if I get off the charge and get to use my jump packs, that's 6 additional Strength 4 hits at Initiative 10, and all to-hit and to-wound rolls are rerollable in the first round of combat.

[Katharon]

Few things that I think would be better for that 2nd list:

1) Lose the shotgun(s) in your scout squad. They should *all* be equipped with sniper rifles. Otherwise it detracts from their ability to pin units and single out characters.

2) Lose the dozer blade on the Baal Predator and the flamestorm cannon, give it the twin-linked assault cannon instead. If you can find the points, then you can add the side sponson heavy flamers for it. But this will give you a bit more ranged firepower.

3) Your Furioso dreadnought should have the blood talons instead of blood fists. I cannot under-emphasize how wonderful and brutal a Furioso Dreadnought with blood talons rolling extra wounds in CC can be. Also, if you don't give it a Drop Pod, then make sure he has some cover.

4) I think you should take a Librarian instead of a Captain. Cheaper and you can get some nice psyker powers flying around.

5) Back to those scouts, I would probably split them into two squads of five -- both for ease of deployment (not every ruin or building will have space for ten) and for taking on more targets at once.

[ElectricPaladin]

1) Lose the shotgun(s) in your scout squad. They should *all* be equipped with sniper rifles. Otherwise it detracts from their ability to pin units and single out characters.

Scouts have two weapons. They have sniper rifles for most of the time and shotguns for the odd assault or to fire in Overwatch.


2) Lose the dozer blade on the Baal Predator and the flamestorm cannon, give it the twin-linked assault cannon instead. If you can find the points, then you can add the side sponson heavy flamers for it. But this will give you a bit more ranged firepower.

I love dozer blades. I will never cut them. Nothing sucks more than getting stuck on terrain, and dozer blades make that almost impossible. It's a five point upgrade! It couldn't be cheaper if it tried.

Additionally... I dunno, man. 6/3 Ignores Cover? In Cities of Death? In any other environment, I would absolutely go dakka pred - maybe with flamers, just in case - but in Cities of Death, I think that the 6/3 Ignores Cover is too good to pass up.


3) Your Furioso dreadnought should have the blood talons instead of blood fists. I cannot under-emphasize how wonderful and brutal a Furioso Dreadnought with blood talons rolling extra wounds in CC can be. Also, if you don't give it a Drop Pod, then make sure he has some cover.

Agreed.

The dread will ride in the stormraven, so he'll be safe until he needs to hit the table.


4) I think you should take a Librarian instead of a Captain. Cheaper and you can get some nice psyker powers flying around.

I'm going to experiment with the reclusiarch, but I'm definitely cutting the captain and replacing him with those death company maniacts to hang out with the reclusiarch.


5) Back to those scouts, I would probably split them into two squads of five -- both for ease of deployment (not every ruin or building will have space for ten) and for taking on more targets at once.

What about keeping them a single squad so I have the option of fielding them as a blob, but probably combat-squadding them in play? I guess it costs me a BS 4 sergeant, but it's slightly cheaper, and gives me more options.

[Houghten]

Scouts have two weapons. They have sniper rifles for most of the time and shotguns for the odd assault or to fire in Overwatch.

Do you mean that each individual scout has a shotgun and sniper rifle? Because the unit entry specifically says you replace the shotgun... the Sergeant's the only one who has the option to replace his bolt pistol, and not with a sniper rifle either.

[ElectricPaladin]

Do you mean that each individual scout has a shotgun and sniper rifle? Because the unit entry specifically says you replace the shotgun... the Sergeant's the only one who has the option to replace his bolt pistol, and not with a sniper rifle either.

Ok, now I have to check...

Well, damn. You are correct. The codex specifies the shotgun as the weapon that is replaced. They will have to have bolt pistols and sniper rifles

[Katharon]

Ok, now I have to check...

Well, damn. You are correct. The codex specifies the shotgun as the weapon that is replaced. They will have to have bolt pistols and sniper rifles

Yup...