Possible Cheeky Space Wolf Anti-Air Tactic....

[Denzark]

Not sure whether or not this is a rules query, or a tactic, bit of both methinks. This is about using the psychic power Murderous hurricane as anti-air. The side effect of murderous hurricane is that the unit affected counts all terrain, even clear, as difficult and dangerous. The FAQ states you don't need to hit or damage the unit, for tha teffect to take place. So. Question. Can it be used to target a flyer and force a difficult terrain test? Thoughts are that all flyers treat all terrain as clear, this power makes all terrain even clear, difficult and dangerous.

I don't have the rule book to hand, but it occurs to me that if said flyer is forced to take a dangerous terrain test and fails, it becomes immobilised. So, would this vector lock it - or prevent it from moving its minimum causing it to crash? Also, if you immobilise it and it is only vector lock, does it suffer the auto hull point?

Answers on a post card...

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Huh, sounds like it would affect Flyers. I wouldn't have a problem with it, since it sounds pretty characterful/reasonable and seemingly checks out w/ RAW.

[Sly]

Immobilize would Vector Lock the Flyer, not prevent it from moving.
Immobilize results ON THE DAMAGE TABLE result in a loss of additional Hull Points if the vehicle is already Immobilized, but being Immobilized from other sources that do not reference the damage table do not inherently cause Hull Points to be lost.

It's probably irrelevant, however, as Flyers can fly above difficult/dangerous terrain. So you make the terrain dangerous, and the Flyer declares that it's flying above it, just as it could park its base on a lava pool and not have to make a check. You can create dangerous terrain for it, but Murderous Hurricane doesn't say that a unit that ignores dangerous terrain cannot ignore the dangerous terrain effect that it creates.

[Librarian Harker]

I've had a look in the rulebook, it says "a zooming flyer does not have to take dangerous terrain tests, even if it stops over difficult, dangerous or impassable terrain".

Going by that, even if you used murderous hurricane, the flyer could just ignore the result.

[Denzark]

I have looked at this 'flying over' issue. That smacks to me that it refers to the ground terrain. Indeed, the flyer can't be in difficult terrain on the ground - this depends on whether or not the air can be made difficult terrain. Because whilst the flyer flies over ground difficult terrain thus taking no tests, what if the very air it is in is what is difficult?

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Tricky one.
I personally side with the idea that since it is IN dangerous terrain it must test, and would allow it were you playing me.

But I think the letter of the rules is pretty clear that "a zooming flyer does not have to take dangerous terrain tests".
So using it in tournaments is clearly out.

I doubt they ever thought of this particular trick, good spot.

[Houghten]

Just one thing: you can't actually shoot Murderous Hurricane at a flyer in the first place. As it does 3d6 automatic hits, and weapons that hit automatically cannot shoot at Zooming Fliers, the question shouldn't even come up.

[Cactus]

Fluff wise, it should work... You can't fly in a hurricane, however, auto hit and zooming rules foil your plan.

[Denzark]

Good spot Houghten - that would seal it off. However I don't think it is an autohit - I thought it is a psychic shooting attack , in no part due to the FAQ stating (I have the FAQ in front of me but not the codex):

...'A targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound.'


If it was autohit, it wouldn't refer to the power failing to hit.

[Denzark]

Just to confirm, the codex does state this is a psychic shooting attack, so autohit doesn't apply.

[Houghten]

How do you figure? Does the psyker make a single To Hit roll and the target either suffers 0 hits or 3d6?

[DarkLink]

Edit: It helps to read the actual rules. A quick glance at the Flyer and Muderous Hurricane rules say this:


The target unit takes 3d6 str 3 hits with AP-.... next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous.


In addition, a Zooming Flyer does not
have to take Dangerous Terrain tests

[Denzark]

Thank you for that perceptive and penetrating commentary. You should try reading some rules, such as Debrett's guide to not being a bellthronk.

I note you have cut the quote about flyers and difficult terrain tests. I haven't got the book to hand, but it states something like 'if it stops over impassable, difficult or dangerous terrain'.

I get that. I can even see it - the flying base is a clear indication that the flyer isn't 'in' the terrain in the same way that an infanteer can be.

The question is, whilst the ground is irrelevant here - the flyer is always over it - does the murderous hurricane turn the actual air, which arguably is the clear terrain in which the flyer movers, into difficult/dangerous terrain.

[SaveModifier]

bellthronk.


I know he's right in this, terrain effects only effect the ground, so the flyer avoids them, but yeah, bellthronk is such a good insult.

[Bob821]

If you played me I would allow it. Seems fun and fluffy. You can imagine the sky being lashed in a raging tempest making it difficult or impossible for a flyer to do its thing. Possibly destroying an already damaged aircraft or forcing the pilot to 'hold his current heading' until clear of the sudden storm.

Seems Doubly fair as poor old Space Puppies have no other air defence other than 'yawn...' another agies defence line... dull as ditch water. I know they can take allies and other fortifications before someone points it out to me! But not very cinematic...

The mighty and proud Space Wolf Lord grits his teeth with bitter frustration as yet another hellturkey appears from reserve (light bulb moment) he whistles over to his Broad Side team to swat that Heldrake out the sky for him! Psft! Or worse still... Once the fearsome bother hood of the Vlka Fenryka has finished putting up a small garden fence to hide behind the grizzled Rune Priest steps to the fore of the pack and in an extremely heroic fashion casts a divination spell on himself and sets to work blasting away with a giant las cannon.

It seems to be so quickly forgotten that the most important rule is to interpret the rules for the betterment of the game... Codex Space wolves comes from a time when there were no flyers. As a results they have no tools to deal with them. So throw them a bone. I'm sure your Hell Turkey, Riptide or Wraith Wave Serpent spam festival will still kick there arse from here to the fang.

Tournaments are a different matter of course! But then none of the cool kids play tournaments anyway so who cares ;)

[Anggul]

Space Wolves can use Hyperios Defence Platforms, and those things are great.

You could also ally with Imperial Guard. It makes more sense to me that the Space Wolves would much rather leave shooting down aircraft to the little men so that they can go and smash the enemy at ground level. I much prefer that to the idea of wasting a Space Marine piloting a Stormtalon or whatever, I just don't see why they would waste Space Marines piloting fighter craft when they could be making use of their superhuman abilities beating face on the ground and letting the Imperial Navy handle the air. Thunderhawks and Stormravens fair enough, as they're big fancy drop ships. Allied Guard with a Vendetta/Hydra or two would help and would be very characterful.

[Anggul]

Accidental double post, delete please.

[DarkLink]

Thank you for that perceptive and penetrating commentary. You should try reading some rules, such as Debrett's guide to not being a bellthronk.

...is this directed at me? WTF is your problem? I posted the rules that provide a pretty clear explanation of the answer to the question, and one of my previous comments might be incorrect since I hadn't referenced the rules. If you don't think the issue is clear, then say so, don't give me a condescending attitude for trying to answer your question. Chill out.



I note you have cut the quote about flyers and difficult terrain tests. I haven't got the book to hand, but it states something like 'if it stops over impassable, difficult or dangerous terrain'.

The question is, whilst the ground is irrelevant here - the flyer is always over it - does the murderous hurricane turn the actual air, which arguably is the clear terrain in which the flyer movers, into difficult/dangerous terrain.

I cut the rules a little bit because really, they're not relevant. The independent statement 'in addition, flyers don't take dangerous terrain checks' pretty solidly answers your question. Does MH cause Flyers to take dangerous terrain checks? No, because Flyers don't take dangerous terrain checks.

You can go more in-depth, but you just end up with more reasons it doesn't work. Namely, MH means that the target treats the whole board as difficult and dangerous. Flyers ignore difficult and dangerous terrain. So that doesn't have any effect either.

So all MH does to Flyers is the 3d6 hits, which don't do anything as str 3 can't hurt vehicles. I'm not sure if MH auto-hits or not, I thought there was an faq that tweaked it, but I'm not certain so I can't give an answer there. But as for dangerous terrain, no, it's very clear it has no effect on Flyers.